Canon officially announces the Canon EOS R5 C

[unfocused]

What makes you believe the card(s) are the cause of the lockups? You stated they occurred with other card brands, too.

Wishful thinking?

Actually, I don't really think it is a card problem, but that's the "wisdom" on the internet, and it's the easiest variable to test. But, I haven't found anyone who actually has the problem with either the R5 or the R3 that fixed it by switching cards. Nor have I found anyone who fixed it by doing a factory reset of the settings or reloading the firmware, but I will probably try both of those "solutions" just to eliminate them.

I would send it in to CPS, but I'm in the midst of the busy time of year and can't afford to be without the R3 for even a few days, since I sold the 1DxIII and almost all my EF glass. Plus, I haven't read of anyone who sent either the R5 or R3 in to Canon that had it fixed. I found last night I could simply turn the battery handle to the "remove" position and turn it back and it would reset the camera, so it now falls into the "nuisance" category, rather than the "disaster" category. I intend to keep trying different things and eliminating them one-by-one. Once things slow down a little, I will send it in to Canon, unless it gets significantly worse before then.

 

[CarlMillerPhoto]

Canon could solve a lot of complaints if they added video back as an option in the photo OS side. Makes it a normal R5 with unlimited recording and no overheating. As-is we have to abandon the ability to simultaneously shoot photo & video (or deal with constant reboots), give up custom video modes, and supposedly give up the superior AF that comes in the photo OS compared to the cinema OS.

 

[dtaylor]

All of these cameras have reports of lockups. Really bad of Canon to make expensive gear thats flawed.

That's a possibility with any modern camera since their "firmware" is practically an entire OS. Pretty sure Canon will fix it in a revision. (Not defending this, I think the state of modern software development in general is horrific. But you're crazy if you think these types of issues only plague Canon.)

 

[dtaylor]

A dozen pages in and no one has mentioned that the R5c should be able to provide 33mp @ 60fps frame grabs. This may offset the lack of IBIS from a stills perspective. Is it correct that AF is not working at 8k60 and you will need external power supply/power bank for lens control poweer (IS/aperture etc)

It is clear that Craig removed the block on "cripple" in the forums

Is "d00med" still blocked? I'm not crazy about saying "ill fated" instead

 

[dilbert]

This camera is clearly aimed primarily at video and stills second, as opposed to the R5 which is stills first, video secondary.

 

[dilbert]

Canon UK said in an interview that they view the R5 and R5C like this:

The R5 is for someone that shoots 80% stills, and 20% video.

The R5C is for someone that shoots 20% stills, and 80% video.

And if you fall inbetween you might be better off with two different bodies.

So. Make of that what you will. Personally I think I’ll keep saving for an R1 since I have my c70 and R6 for now.

Exactly. If shooting stills is important to you, the R5C is not for you. it's not the camera you take birding, it's not the camera you take for photographing your kids soccer or out on a stroll around a new city. It might be the camera you use at wedding for shooting video of the ceremony plus the posed shots later.

 

[cayenne]

Canon removed IBIS to cripple the R5c to protect their cine cameras which have...no IBIS?

Canon is clearly ill-fated!

Also: if the R5c had IBIS it still wouldn't be weather sealed with a fan. Price/sealing would still sell the R5.

From what I understand, a fan does NOT pre-suppose that it is not weather sealed?

Did the R5C specs say if it has weather sealing or not?
I missed that part.

C

 

[cayenne]

Absolutely wrong I think. It's pretty obvious there was a reason to remove IBIS. That being heat. Given that they had to re-engineer this camera specifically around heat dissipation, there's a very obvious issue with IBIS, as it limits the size and functionality of any heat sink attached to the sensor. A bigger reason, though is that big red C on the body. That means it's a "CinemaEos" product and....welll...nothing in that line has IBIS...probably for reason # 1. Frankly, Ibis is always problematic in video...it never works right, as it is really designed to stabilize the sensor for stills. We all have to step back and realize this camera is always going to be a compromise because it is a hybrid. The lead feature is 8k, unlimited record times, and Cinema Raw Light. That's the camera they are selling you. I you want that...then you live without IBIS.

Maybe I missed it, but the only blurb I've seen or heard about removing IBIS from R5C...was a mention of something to do with people using "Cine Lenses"....?

Did anyone see anything else but this explanation from Canon?

C

 

[cayenne]

I'm sorry, but if you literally can't get sharp results with any mechanically sound lens without IBIS assistance, you're doing photography wrong.

It's not so much a lack of skills.
It is that you get used to IBIS being able to extend you ability to get shots you really cannot get without it.

It's almost like getting a faster lens in the sense that you can stretch the physical capabilities of your equipment that little bit more with IBIS and get the shot you just really cannot get without it.

That's the dependence I think most are speaking towards.

 

[neuroanatomist]

That's a possibility with any modern camera since their "firmware" is practically an entire OS. Pretty sure Canon will fix it in a revision. (Not defending this, I think the state of modern software development in general is horrific. But you're crazy if you think these types of issues only plague Canon.)

One feature in most OSs that seems lacking from Canon's firmware is error logging/reporting. The problem with these lockups is that they are experienced intermittently and only by some users, which makes it very hard to determine the root cause. In the nearly two months I've had my R3, it has never locked up, while @unfocused has had it happen multiple times in a day. Does his have a hardware fault? Is it some combination of settings that cause a problem in certain situations, perhaps a particular metered exposure coupled with some exposure setting restriction or safety shift customizations? If Canon has logging in their firmware, at least a camera sent for service could be used to help identify the causative factors. But with a computer, there is onboard storage where logs can be written.

 

[dtaylor]

It is not the same using a 30 mpx camera and using 45mpx camera that is the point, the why I wrote use the R5 without IS. Larger sensors benefit from having an ibis or any type of stabilization. Especially if you crop or print large print where the micro jitters are visible.

I still personally shoot a 5Ds. Most of my lenses are stabilized. But the EF 24-70 f/2.8L II is not. I shoot it hand held all the time, I print large, and I have no issues with "micro jitters."

In fairness, when I overhauled my kit to the 5Ds I retained my old shutter speed habits from crop ( 1/(focal length * 1.5) ) since the pixel density was roughly the same. That said, as long as I'm careful with my technique I can shoot 1/focal length and even a bit lower and still have no motion blur or "micro jitters." But for 100% consistency I use the safe speeds.

 

[neuroanatomist]

I've never had any of my cameras lock up. Just my experience, not saying there haven't been reports.

Never had a lockup over nearly three years with an R and nearly two months with an R3. I have had an EOS M and a 1D X fail, but those were true failures not merely a lockup (the main PCB in the 1D X was replaced, I never found out what failed on the M because buying an M2 was about $20 more than the fixed-cost repair for the M).

 

[DBounce]

Apples and oranges. The S1H does not do 6K at 60P, let alone 8K raw at 60P. The processing power required by the Canon is so much higher that a larger heat sink is required.

Ok, and Sony’s A1? What about Nikon’s Z9? All record 8K and all have IBIS. Oh, and neither require a fan and holes in the side of the camera.

I suspect we are going to see all of these issues resolved in the upcoming R1. The R1 will be my next Canon body. I’m skipping the strange variants and minor revisions to existing bodies. Until then I’ll just have to make do with my R3

 

[dtaylor]

Well Sony managed to pull it in a smaller body without a ventilation system in the A1 so it is obvious that is possible.

Sony's sensors are not Canon's sensors. Most of what people have complained about on this forum for years has been the end result of Canon's chip fabrication being behind Sony's fabrication. Sony moved ADCs on chip long before Canon (hence the DR debates). Sony had full width, full resolution, oversampled video readout before Canon. Canon is catching up, but the 45mp R5 sensor runs hot. In terms of IQ it's a match for Sony's A1 sensor, but not in terms of power efficiency.

Your own posts confirm this where you speak about how shooting photos on the R5 keeps it from cooling down while the R6 recovers video time even while shooting stills. Stills eating into video time is one of the hints that for all its pluses, Canon's 45mp sensor is power hungry and hot. The R6 sensor is probably also hot relative to competitors, but it only has to readout 20mp, not 45mp.

I would guess these thermal issues will be resolved when Canon takes the level of design/fabrication they're using in the R3 sensor and apply it to a second generation 45/50mp sensor. For now we have the choices which we have. (And for anyone thinking "if Sony is ahead, why not jump to Sony?", I would say Canon is ahead in lens design/manufacturing, AF design, weather sealing, color science, and ergonomics. There are no perfect cameras, you have to pick your trade offs.)

 

[dtaylor]

From what I understand, a fan does NOT pre-suppose that it is not weather sealed?

Did the R5C specs say if it has weather sealing or not?
I missed that part.

I was wrong on that. Canon says the R5C is weather sealed despite the fan.

 

[cayenne]

HYBRID shooters. I can't imagine you're using a camera the whole day, switching back and forward between photo/video, day in day out. Imagine the wear and tear on the camera.
Consider these combinations.

R5, Ninja V+ and (R5)
R5, Ninja V+ and (R5C)
R5, Ninja V+ and (R1)
R5, Ninja V+ and (R3)
R5, Ninja V+ and (C70)
R5, Ninja V+ and (Komodo)

Unfortunately, that requires more bulk, extra purchases, mounting gear to put it together, more cables, more batteries, etc....

 

[twoheadedboy]

It's not so much a lack of skills.
It is that you get used to IBIS being able to extend you ability to get shots you really cannot get without it.

It's almost like getting a faster lens in the sense that you can stretch the physical capabilities of your equipment that little bit more with IBIS and get the shot you just really cannot get without it.

That's the dependence I think most are speaking towards.

The post I responded to indicated IBIS was the difference between them getting sharp shots or not with the EF 50mm f/1.0. First off, that's a huge, expensive, highly specialized lens, where if you're not deliberately shooting at f/1.0, you should pick a different one for the job. Second, the DOF at 50mm f/1.0 is less than 9 inches with a subject 10 feet away, and pre-mirrorless a photographer was much more subject to unit variation/calibration issues, so I don't doubt that it was much harder to get this lens in focus wide-open, but any mirrorless Canon should resolve that, even without IBIS. Finally, we're talking about literally one of the brightest lenses in existence - you should be able to shoot handheld indoors in ambient light with no IBIS at a shutter speed matching the focal length (1/50) at ISO 100 wide open...that's crazy, a daylight ISO indoors with no mechanical assistance. If you can't get sharp results at 1/50 (hand shake, moving car, etc.), you can go to ISO 200 (etc.) and go all the way to 1/100 for the shot, then it should be sharp, and the quality difference between ISO 100 and 200 on an R5 is minimal or nonexistent.

tl;dr - the example provided is a lens that most people should be able to shoot wide open at ISO 800 or less in almost any light where you can see your hand in front of your face and get a sharp image...so long as they know more about how to be a photographer than just clicking the shutter on the camera and hoping for the best.

 

[twoheadedboy]

Unfortunately, that requires more bulk, extra purchases, mounting gear to put it together, more cables, more batteries, etc....

It's really not that hard. And if you're so exacting that you need unlimited 8k for long format recording, it's cheaper (and more reliable) to store the files on SSD than CF, and you're probably going to need external battery power, anyway. That's why this whining about mythical strawman hybrid shooting fantasies is ridiculous, it doesn't reflect anything someone actually does or needs to do. No one is limited by the fact that they can't hold an R5 for a full hour in a photo shooter's position with no outbound gear and get an uninterrupted 8k video...tripods or gimbals, batteries, and storage will all play a factor, at which point, the Ninja V+ is just one more thing. And having modular capabilities are a key SELLING point (not deterrence) for most actual video shooters, you can see it in the Sony ad copy as well, in addition to the hot shoe on the R3 and R5C.

 

[Respinder]

Can I ask you why didn't you go for the R3?
Asking cause it seams I will have to go with it having the same workflow like you do.
I own r5 and R6 and started to use R6 more for the video since the cool down is much faster and it actually cools down while shooting photos oppose to R5 which accumulate heat in a photo mode.
Now with r5c not fitting my needs I will have to go for the R3 which I will probably have to wait till March. But I Don't see a lot of people considering R3 here for the hybrid work flow, is there any reason for that, beside the price and the waiting time to get one?

Its funny because you and I seem to be looking at the same cameras
I wanted to like the R3 but for me, I can't get over the 24MP. On the one hand, it may be a useful thing, as my workflow (from my current 5D Mark III) wouldn't change much and I'd be dealing with the same file sizes.

Then I watched a review last night by DP Review on the R3 - from the gist of it, seems like the R6 comes quite close in performance both in terms of high ISO and low light performance:

So given the R3's price point, I'm not sure this would work for me. I'll be waiting for the R1 as well as the R5 Mark II, and perhaps the R5C Mark II
And perhaps there may even be a R1C eventually if Canon is successful with the R5C..

 

[Respinder]

Wow what a day has made for me. So many emotions. When I first saw the announcement, my first post on here referred to the R5C as "junk". Of course I said that in raw emotion, and the R5C is quite a feat of engineering in general, although I am still disappointed at the same time.

Looking at all the hands-on videos last night, I think I do have a better understanding as to why Canon went with a fixed sensor vs floating sensor. And I have a much greater appreciation for what Canon has done in creating two independent video and photo environments - I do believe this is the way. While it may take time to switch over between the two environments, I don't think it will be hard for Canon to offer a future firmware update that would allow someone to take a photo from the video environment (apparently this can already be done) and vice-versa- taking a quick video from the photo environment. If not in this camera, I do see it migrating into other hybrid C cameras.

I do see Canon selling a lot of these. These cameras look very beautiful from the front, with the red accents - almost like the Ferrari of Canons. But the sideview - god that chunky side view!! Theres a level of refinement that I would expect in every Canon model - I've often felt that Canons are so well designed that you hardly feel them in your hands. I still feel that this particular design is more unrefined - partially as this is Canon's first efforts in installing/designing a fan for a ILC body, and partially due to the limited time to get this camera to market?

I do see potential in a R5 Mark II eventually containing a better, more optimized heat management system to manage 8K workflow in a far better manner. I also see a potentially more refined R5C coming out that will have a far more refined design and updated features. I could also see an R1C along the way should Canon see success in these offerings.

For me, my issue is that the lack of IBIS will almost certainly prevent me from optimizing the run-and-gun video that I want to perform, while also still possessing a full-fledged photo camera. This video below demonstrates some of the micro-jitters that you'll see if you handhold this camera without a gimbal:

Of course a gimbal can correct all of this. But for me and how I wish to use this camera, I think taking a gimbal everywhere I go would be overkill, and theres lots of events where I cannot take a gimbal. For those in professional videography who take controlled video, I think this will be a very strong product. But for everyone else, its either the R5, or just wait for a future model.