Canon R - How bad is EFCS rolling shutter?

[stillviking]

Hello,

I read an article with a graph showing Canon R is the worst mirorrless in sensor read speed when using EFCS shutter (possible because it was Canon 1st mirrorless cam).

With EFCS (Silent LV shooting - Mode 1) we don't have the risk of rolling shutter on water moving, like waterfalls, rivers, lakes, etc.? Anyone has enough experience to tell us?

After years I just found many of my landscape photos are blurry because of shutter stock of Canon R mechanical shutter!! Sick :x!

Thanks!

SV

 

[koenkooi]

EFCS uses the same curtain as the full mechanical shutter to stop the exposure, so it has the same amount of rolling shutter as that. Which is basically none.

 

[stillviking]

Hello, in fact rolling shutter exists and it's quite big here - EFCS 80ms! Nowadays cameras have like 3.5 ms for EFCS!

 

[neuroanatomist]

Hello, in fact rolling shutter exists and it's quite big here - EFCS 80ms! Nowadays cameras have like 3.5 ms for EFCS!

View attachment 210173

That’s the sensor readout speed. It’s irrelevant for EFCS since the readout occurs after the mechanical shutter closes. EFCS = mechanical shutter as far as rolling shutter goes.

With respect, it seems like you’re looking for problems where none exist.

 

[SHAMwow]

Neuro covered it, but yeah this just doesn't make sense. Especially because you're citing landscape issues. Where this wouldn't apply.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Neuro covered it, but yeah this just doesn't make sense. Especially because you're citing landscape issues. Where this wouldn't apply.

It could be that @stillviking doesn’t understand the difference between mechanical shutter, EFCS and full electronic shutter.

 

[stillviking]

I'm certainly confusing rolling shutter and "sensor read out speed". What affects this huge "sensor read out speed"? I always thought it was responsible for rolling shutter, but now I see I can be wrong. Anyone can explain me, please?

Also, I was worried about landscapes but with water moving.

 

[SHAMwow]

I'm certainly confusing rolling shutter and "sensor read out speed". What affects this huge "sensor read out speed"? I always thought it was responsible for rolling shutter, but now I see I can be wrong. Anyone can explain me, please?

Also, I was worried about landscapes but with water moving.

Those two are connected. But they wouldn't really affect your landscape still photos. The shutter shock you mention is different. And to be honest worried bout too often. Way bigger factor such as physically pressing the shutter button that would shake your camera as opposed to the shutter mechanic itself especially in mirrorless. Not saying it isn't there but yeah. Can you post a landscape photo you think is affected? Curious now.

 

[neuroanatomist]

I'm certainly confusing rolling shutter and "sensor read out speed". What affects this huge "sensor read out speed"? I always thought it was responsible for rolling shutter, but now I see I can be wrong. Anyone can explain me, please?

Rolling shutter is linked to sensor readout speed, but only with full electronic shutter. A sensor is read vertically line-by-line, rolling shutter artifacts occur when a subject is moving rapidly across the frame (horizontally) and the exposure is ended electronically by the sensor.

With mechanical shutter, the shutter opens (first curtain) to begin the exposure and closes (second curtain) to end it. With EFCS, the sensor begins the exposure (that happens all at once), and the mechanical shutter ends it. In both cases, the sensor is read out with the shutter closed, after the exposure has ended. Readout speed doesn’t matter.

With full electronic shutter, the sensor readout ends the exposure. The slower the readout, the worse the rolling shutter effect. However, that effect is mainly evident with defined shapes – horizontally moving lines become bent, horizontally moving spheres (e.g. a ball) become oblong.

Also, I was worried about landscapes but with water moving.

With something like a waterfall, most motion is vertical (unless you’re in portrait orientation) and even then it’s not typically a defined shape so rolling shutter is not likely to be noticeable.

 

[stillviking]

Thank you so much, looks with EFCS (Silent LV shooting - Mode 1) I'm very safe to avoid "shutter shock" with Canon R.

I will just turn on to "Mechanical shutter" again now when need bokeh photos or in artificial light conditions (here I continue with doubts if only in interiors or if also in a night landscape is also expected to have banding problems due to the city lights?)

 

[koenkooi]

Thank you so much, looks with EFCS (Silent LV shooting - Mode 1) I'm very safe to avoid "shutter shock" with Canon R.

I will just turn on to "Mechanical shutter" again now when need bokeh photos or in artificial light conditions (here I continue with doubts if only in interiors or if also in a night landscape is also expected to have banding problems due to the city lights?)

Banding, like rolling shutter is not a problem when using EFCS, only with ES.

 

[padam]

Banding can still happen when using HSS with flashes. But of course, the option is there to use full mechanical shutter.
Back to the original point, yes, I found the EOS R to be susceptible to a bit of shutter shake (whether with or without EFCS), it may be recommended to take multiple shots just in case. Or maybe the optical IS was left turned on when using a tripod, etc. but all other FF R cameras seem to have this alleviated (RP included).
The R7 can also suffer from this shutter shake problem (a bit odd, considering the R5 in APS-C crop mode does not).

 

[stillviking]

How can R have shutter shake with EFCS, since the courtain just end exposition?

 

[padam]

It is still a mechanical movement and it is noisier, not as damped as in other models, can be felt through the viewfinder.
Does not happen often and only at certain shutter speeds and only apparent at 100% magnification (or in case of the R7 telephoto lenses amplify any shake).
So overall not a big deal, just requires more attention - and some shutter mechanisms are just better designed than others.

 

[neuroanatomist]

It is still a mechanical movement and it is noisier, not as damped as in other models, can be felt through the viewfinder.
Does not happen often and only at certain shutter speeds and only apparent at 100% magnification (or in case of the R7 telephoto lenses amplify any shake).

The ‘shock’ occurs when the shutter curtain reaches the end of its traverse. With full mechanical shutter, the first curtain opening starts the exposure, and that curtain hits the end of its traverse during the exposure. The point is that with EFCS, the exposure is started electronically, no shock possible.
The second curtain closing ends the exposure. At that point, no light is hitting the sensor and you could shake the camera like a maraca without affecting the captured image.

Would be interesting if you could provide an example of a pair of images, one with EFCS and the other with full electronic, showing the effect of shutter shock with the former. I doubt you can do so. For years, using EFCS has been recommended as a way to eliminate shutter shock.

 

[AlanF]

The ‘shock’ occurs when the shutter curtain reaches the end of its traverse. With full mechanical shutter, the first curtain opening starts the exposure, and that curtain hits the end of its traverse during the exposure. The point is that with EFCS, the exposure is started electronically, no shock possible.
The second curtain closing ends the exposure. At that point, no light is hitting the sensor and you could shake the camera like a maraca without affecting the captured image.

Would be interesting if you could provide an example of a pair of images, one with EFCS and the other with full electronic, showing the effect of shutter shock with the former. I doubt you can do so. For years, using EFCS has been recommended as a way to eliminate shutter shock.

Unfortunately, there is shutter shock with EFCS and the R7 shooting bursts at some speeds - the closing of the curtain can affect the next shot as described here:

Shutter shock on the R7

There is discussion in various forums about shutter shock with Electronic First Curtain Shutter (EFCS) with the R7. I have been following this and have done careful tests of my own with charts and would like to sum up the situation. Shutter shock can occur when any shutter is opened mechanically...

www.canonrumors.com

I use ES for that reason for many shots, and mechanical to avoid its terrible rolling shutter for rapidly moving wings of insects and birds.

 

[padam]

Yes, exactly, it is one thing to speak about actual practical experiences uses or to try to act smart and preach about theories.

I have used the R for over two years (and the R7 for a short amount of time) and I know their quirks. (Sony A7S was another where I experienced this, others probably not significant enough to mention)

 

[neuroanatomist]

Unfortunately, there is shutter shock with EFCS and the R7 shooting bursts at some speeds - the closing of the curtain can affect the next shot as described here:

The subsequent shot, ok that I can understand. Thanks.

The R7 frame rate would be fast enough for that. The original R at 8 fps, no. Maybe if it was being used on a vibration-prone setup (cheap tripod with a center column extended, for example).

 

[stillviking]

Like @neuroanatomist explained I can't find any reason for Canon R EFCS has shutter shock, at least in first photo. Or you are talking about sequences in 8 fps @padam? That's the only possibility I can try to understand.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Yes, exactly, it is one thing to speak about actual practical experiences uses or to try to act smart and preach about theories.

Lol. It’s not theory, EFCS eliminates shutter shock for the image being captured. When challenged on your statement, all you could come up with was a handwaving babble about EFCS still being mechanical and the shock only being evident under certain, vaguely-specified conditions. If you knew the problem occurred only in a burst with one EFCS shot affecting the next image, you’d have said so.

Instead, you were the one trying to ‘act smart’. Fortunately, @AlanF came to your rescue with actual, useful information.

As for practical experience, I had an EOS R for ~3 years and never experienced shutter shock. Since you claim to have experienced it as a 'quirk' of your shooting with the EOS R, I asked you to support that assertion with evidence. You have not done so.