Canon Releases Q3 2015 Results
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It would be interesting academic study on how much money Sony/Fuji made with their interesting mirrorless cameras. It would not be huge (comparitively speaking) but am sure it is substancial. Substancial money that Canon did not make.
I understand economy going down etc but it can be denied that Canon is not posting the high sales figures after Sony came out with these cameras in the last 3 years. Timing you say? Perhaps. Perhaps competition is eating into sales of what could have been Canon's.
I understand economy going down etc but it can be denied that Canon is not posting the high sales figures after Sony came out with these cameras in the last 3 years. Timing you say? Perhaps. Perhaps competition is eating into sales of what could have been Canon's.
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First of all to get a better picture one has to see Canon's annual report, it's on the web. They explain everything there and lay out the plan. For example it's no question Canon is moving to the right direction with high-spec (20Mp, etc.) Powershots against the mobile phone.
Also note when speaking about Canon one has to think what about Nikon, Pentax, Olympus, etc. Are they all profiting less, in the red, and so on. For example if the entire dSLR market sales drop then it's not Canon, it's the product or some external factor. Like if there's major refugee crisis around the world dSLR sales become non-topic.
Also note when speaking about Canon one has to think what about Nikon, Pentax, Olympus, etc. Are they all profiting less, in the red, and so on. For example if the entire dSLR market sales drop then it's not Canon, it's the product or some external factor. Like if there's major refugee crisis around the world dSLR sales become non-topic.
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AvTvM said:
So why waste time reading about something you have no interest in? Do you read the Toyota forums even though you prefer Honda? Do you hang out at Home Depot and tell people you prefer Lowe's? Anyway, hasta la vista, I have some photos to go process.
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neuroanatomist said:
I consider some arguments as invalid.
1/ they have the resources to get into the market and dominate: Resources - yes they have (probably), but this doesn't lead surely to domination at all. Ignoring competition and macroeconomic environment as well, as tech. market trends would be a major business mistake.
2/ the #2 best selling MILC in Japan: Japan is neither the world, nor it will be ever a trend setter. It is (and will always be) a very niche-specific market.
3/ Judging by the comments on this forum...: Come on! Who really believes that the majority of people with mostly SONY/NIKON glass in their armory will be exactly on this forum waiting to defend the CANON's market achievements?
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Loswr
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Diko said:
1) So, you agree the argument is valid. The argument was not Canon will dominate, it is that they have the resources (and thus the potential to) dominate.
2) Japan accounts for >20% of global MILC sales, which makes it highly relevant to gauge the popularity of a particular brand/model.
3) Agreed. I should have replaced that part with an ellipsis – unlike Japan regarding MILC sales, this forum is a very niche-specific market.
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Personally, I think Canon have done more than ok in the mirrorless space. I like my EOS M (v1) and I really don't get why it has such a bad reputation - and the internet comments on the M10 (which is not even in stores yet) are even more aggressive.
I've experimented with a couple of NEX (C3 and F3) and Panasonic cameras (G6 and GH2) I bought and sold on the cheap over the last 4-5 years. For day to day photography, I'm sticking with the M. Much nicer handling and controls (for me, Canon's touch screen controls are excellent).
I'm sure that AF speed could be improved, but I never missed a shot because of it (I have a 5D mkIII for birds and wildlife). Canon have their dual-pixel system in their back pocket: once they sort out battery consumption issues, I'm sure they'll utilise it on the M series, but in the meantime for travel, friends and family occasions, etc I think the M is absolutely fine.
4k video: it would be nice to have, but (as far as I'm concerned) I would rather have half-decent battery life.
The only really embarrassing miss is the absence of 1080p 60fps.
I've experimented with a couple of NEX (C3 and F3) and Panasonic cameras (G6 and GH2) I bought and sold on the cheap over the last 4-5 years. For day to day photography, I'm sticking with the M. Much nicer handling and controls (for me, Canon's touch screen controls are excellent).
I'm sure that AF speed could be improved, but I never missed a shot because of it (I have a 5D mkIII for birds and wildlife). Canon have their dual-pixel system in their back pocket: once they sort out battery consumption issues, I'm sure they'll utilise it on the M series, but in the meantime for travel, friends and family occasions, etc I think the M is absolutely fine.
4k video: it would be nice to have, but (as far as I'm concerned) I would rather have half-decent battery life.
The only really embarrassing miss is the absence of 1080p 60fps.
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Adelino said:
There is something called 'General Knowledge'. Perhaps the OP likes to keep track of what is going on in the world. He used to shoot Canon (or still does) and likes to know what is going on with his ex brand. Something wrong with that??
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From the original link http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/27/canon-results-idUSL4N0SM25K20141027:
"Investments to boost businesses such as video surveillance and semiconductor steppers also helped to outweigh a 11.4 billion yen contribution from a weaker yen, a company spokesman said."
Semiconductor steppers... is Canon moving into 250 nm fab?
"Investments to boost businesses such as video surveillance and semiconductor steppers also helped to outweigh a 11.4 billion yen contribution from a weaker yen, a company spokesman said."
Semiconductor steppers... is Canon moving into 250 nm fab?
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No. I am afraid I don't. Indeed there is a possibility, but not necessarily what would happened in an if-scenario.neuroanatomist said:
As I said - too many variables hiding too much risk for such endeavor to take place.
I tend to agree with your numbers and differ from your conclusions, however.neuroanatomist said:
Mother Japan could help in popularity. Yes - probably. In buying decision - Nope. Ergo it is not a trend setter. The biggest consumer is North America. Together with EMEA region could be hard to conclude any trend influencer overall.
You simply confuse the vendor's drive to boost profit from its whole portfolio with trend setting.
Alas can't find where I have read it but as I recall 5D M2 sold better all over the world aside from Japan where the Rebels were the generally preferred EOS body.
neuroanatomist said:
This forum is not a market. It is a forum.
If we speak in terms of human behaviour comfort zone trespasser are hard to meet even outside this forum. Therefore the glass keepers are always with times more then "faith abandoning sinners". However the point is elsewhere.
If you insist I can paraphrase: I believe that CANON has the force and the necessary means to get their hands dirty and TRY to dominate the market. But never forget what even they admit: Costs is everything!
It is not a matter if they can or want, but if they will commit. According to the last rumor (CR2). FF MILC could happen. But again it is a matter of costs. Even on 300 mm wafer tech it is uncertain what other hard to solve expenses they might come across.
And you got my point, quite clearly. Don't twist it with that delightful game of words of yours. ;-)
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Loswr
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Diko said:
You seem to not grasp that the point was about resources to execute on a broader MILC strategy, not about either the decision to do so nor about the success of such efforts if undertaken.
On the issue of resources to enter and dominate the market (the argument being made), you responded, "Resources - yes they have (probably)." Sounds like agreement to me. If you want to expand the argument beyond its origin then disagree with that, go ahead...just understand you're arguing against no one but yourself.
Diko said:
I'm not confusing anything. I made two statements of fact (the EOS M was the #2 best-selling MILC in Japan, Japan comprises >20% of the global MILC market). You applied an interpretation to those facts (not mine) then refuted it – again, you're arguing only with yourself.
Incidentally, your fact knowledge concerning camera markets is woefully inaccurate. North America is not the biggest consumer – of the three major geographies (Asia, Europe, and the Americas - throwing South America in as a bonus), the most cameras are sold in Asia, followed by Europe, with the Americas coming in last. That's for all cameras as well as separately for compacts, ILCs, dSLRs, and MILCs. So, who's confused?
Diko said:
Given that I'm stating facts and you're constructing several strawman arguments based on those facts, then shooting them down...it's quite clear that you're the one doing the twisting here. Given that, I see no point in further discussion.
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What Canon says about its #Q results
Lots of speculation here, so just sharing the plain facts as Canon sees them after 3Q results are in:
"As for cameras, demand for both interchangeable-lens digital cameras and digital compact cameras continued to decline compared with last year.
During the third quarter, despite a gradual recovery in sales of interchangeable-lens digital cameras in Japan and Europe, severe conditions continued in other regions while sales volume for digital compact cameras decreased compared with the same period of the previous year.
Within the Imaging System Business Unit, although total sales volume of interchangeable-lens digital cameras declined due to market shrinkage, sales of interchangeable-lens digital cameras increased from the same period of the previous year in Japan and Europe owing to healthy demand for such new models as the EOS 5DS, EOS 5DS R, EOS Rebel T6i/EOS 750D, EOS Rebel T6s/EOS 760D and EOS M3. As for digital compact cameras, while sales volume declined amid the ongoing contraction of the market due to the effects of the growing popularity of smartphones, profitability improved thanks to the growing ratio of high-added-value models featuring high image quality and high-magnification zoom capabilities, such as the new PowerShot SX710 HS and PowerShot G3 X.
As for interchangeable-lens digital cameras, despite the strong recovery in Japan, the U.S. and Western Europe, the market is expected to shrink due to the deterioration of the economies in the Asian region and other factors. While the digital compact camera market is also expected to shrink, demand for high-added-value models featuring high image quality and high-magnification zoom capabilities is expected to grow steadily."
Have not had time to check on any accompanying statements Canon may have made. Interesting that while speculation is rife about how many 5DS/R's are being sold Canon itself highlights the sales of the two models as "healthy". This of course is a relative term compared to their expectations, but since its investor material - it does tell us that sales are "healthy" for both models compared to Canon's expectations.
Lots of speculation here, so just sharing the plain facts as Canon sees them after 3Q results are in:
"As for cameras, demand for both interchangeable-lens digital cameras and digital compact cameras continued to decline compared with last year.
During the third quarter, despite a gradual recovery in sales of interchangeable-lens digital cameras in Japan and Europe, severe conditions continued in other regions while sales volume for digital compact cameras decreased compared with the same period of the previous year.
Within the Imaging System Business Unit, although total sales volume of interchangeable-lens digital cameras declined due to market shrinkage, sales of interchangeable-lens digital cameras increased from the same period of the previous year in Japan and Europe owing to healthy demand for such new models as the EOS 5DS, EOS 5DS R, EOS Rebel T6i/EOS 750D, EOS Rebel T6s/EOS 760D and EOS M3. As for digital compact cameras, while sales volume declined amid the ongoing contraction of the market due to the effects of the growing popularity of smartphones, profitability improved thanks to the growing ratio of high-added-value models featuring high image quality and high-magnification zoom capabilities, such as the new PowerShot SX710 HS and PowerShot G3 X.
As for interchangeable-lens digital cameras, despite the strong recovery in Japan, the U.S. and Western Europe, the market is expected to shrink due to the deterioration of the economies in the Asian region and other factors. While the digital compact camera market is also expected to shrink, demand for high-added-value models featuring high image quality and high-magnification zoom capabilities is expected to grow steadily."
Have not had time to check on any accompanying statements Canon may have made. Interesting that while speculation is rife about how many 5DS/R's are being sold Canon itself highlights the sales of the two models as "healthy". This of course is a relative term compared to their expectations, but since its investor material - it does tell us that sales are "healthy" for both models compared to Canon's expectations.
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Loswr
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@ Maiaibing - thanks for extracting the comments. I recall that Canon indicated previously they would focus their compact/fixed lens camera efforts on higher end models, looks like that strategy is paying off.
Correct. As also stated above, Asia is a larger camera market than either Europe or the Americas (based on CIPA data, where Asia as a geographic region comprises data they report separately for Japan and the rest of Asia).
Maiaibing said:
Correct. As also stated above, Asia is a larger camera market than either Europe or the Americas (based on CIPA data, where Asia as a geographic region comprises data they report separately for Japan and the rest of Asia).
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OK 
I don't agree with your interpretation of the sentence:
Perhaps the reason I addressed two people in the same post left you with the wrong conclusions about with whose opinion I disagree in each quote.
Or perhaps you make your own interpretations of Unfocused's post and try to persuade everyone that I am contradicting with myself. If that is the case - nice move. I refuse to take any further part of any of your future interpretations of his words. ;-) 
Here's mine:
As said I agree with numbers and not with your conclusions.
Even though more fabulously expressed: 1/5th of MILC Global sales as accounted to Japan not necessarily leads to "gauge the popularity".
As much as I try to follow japanese sites me and my colleagues tend to inform mostly from english ones. So Europe and the rest of the NON-Asian world probably also get influenced mostly NOT by Japanese sales, but rather from reviews and opinion-leaders from the western world.
"Popularity" and "sales" as in this case and in this sentence of yours are NOT the same and the one (sales) does NOT lead to the other (namely gauging popularity) . Please note! I even don't bring up the "abandoned EOS M2 from CANON USA" as an argument.
And as conclusion perhaps it is better to chillax a little ;-) If not sure what I meant just ask. ;-) Pointing fingers for what I've said and convincing me that I am "arguing against no one but yourself" won't do good to anyone of us. Simply because I am not arguing with no one. I am expressing an opinion. ;-)
Actually my opinion is a doubt based on that quite informative interview posted recently. My keyword are costs and uncertainty in relation to MILC... Based on what I read - perhaps you missed my points. I hope now you understand whose words I talked about and what I understood by those words.
PS:
Efka76, read the above mentioned article. There aside from "masking" you will read a confirmation about attempts to transfer to 450 mm wafers. That is the sensor production. And it's a HUGE investment. And I am pretty pretty sure that they don't allocate/book it in one fiscal year ;-) Ergo the expense partially covers the future production, I guess.
PS2:
No, no, no , no, noneuroanatomist said:
I don't agree with your interpretation of the sentence:
I disagree with his AND related to "dominate". So I also don't agree with your first interpretation:
. In this sentence of his I understand Dominate as Canon getting 1st place in MILC sales.
Perhaps the reason I addressed two people in the same post left you with the wrong conclusions about with whose opinion I disagree in each quote.
Or perhaps you make your own interpretations of Unfocused's post and try to persuade everyone that I am contradicting with myself. If that is the case - nice move. I refuse to take any further part of any of your future interpretations of his words.
;-) This is strictly your opinion.neuroanatomist said:
Here's mine:As said I agree with numbers and not with your conclusions.
Even though more fabulously expressed: 1/5th of MILC Global sales as accounted to Japan not necessarily leads to "gauge the popularity".
As much as I try to follow japanese sites me and my colleagues tend to inform mostly from english ones. So Europe and the rest of the NON-Asian world probably also get influenced mostly NOT by Japanese sales, but rather from reviews and opinion-leaders from the western world.
"Popularity" and "sales" as in this case and in this sentence of yours are NOT the same and the one (sales) does NOT lead to the other (namely gauging popularity) . Please note! I even don't bring up the "abandoned EOS M2 from CANON USA" as an argument.
About Asia, my bad I think you are right. We even commented it somewhere here I believe.neuroanatomist said:
And as conclusion perhaps it is better to chillax a little ;-) If not sure what I meant just ask. ;-) Pointing fingers for what I've said and convincing me that I am "arguing against no one but yourself" won't do good to anyone of us. Simply because I am not arguing with no one. I am expressing an opinion. ;-)
Actually my opinion is a doubt based on that quite informative interview posted recently. My keyword are costs and uncertainty in relation to MILC... Based on what I read - perhaps you missed my points. I hope now you understand whose words I talked about and what I understood by those words.
PS:
Efka76 said:
Efka76, read the above mentioned article. There aside from "masking" you will read a confirmation about attempts to transfer to 450 mm wafers. That is the sensor production. And it's a HUGE investment. And I am pretty pretty sure that they don't allocate/book it in one fiscal year ;-) Ergo the expense partially covers the future production, I guess.
PS2:
Check the data @CIPA for yourself. ASIA + JAPAN > Europe. Otherwise NOT. ;-)Maiaibing said:
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