Canon Very Large Sensor Media Format Mirrorless 1Dx2 style Camera Seen in Wild

HarryFilm

EOS RP
Jun 6, 2016
712
166
----
"...So when, exactly, do you anticipate the processing power to deliver 24fps of a 200MP image in a body small enough to wield in the field?..."
----


===

I should preface the following statement in that
I should disclose I am one of the few people on
Earth who have access to 7 nanometre electron beam
etching machines used for prototype CPU production
...AND... that our company creates 64-bit, 128-bit
and ultra-wide-word 256-bit CPU/GPU designs
from the ground up for aerospace, supercomputer
and "other" uses!

So I can ABSOLUTELY SAY the designs for a
combined RISC (Reduced Instruction Set Computer)
and GPU (Graphics Processing Unit) bonded
to a large CMOS sensor of 16-bits-per-channel
and more are HERE AT THIS VERY MOMENT if
Canon wants them! We'll even throw in the in-between
liquid microchannel-based cooling system layers to
ensure adequate cooling.

The die is usually 2/3", one-inch, 35mm or even 65mm
because we bond the gpu/risc cpu processing system
right to the back substrate of the CMOS sensor along
with a multi-layer active cooling system. Our usual
temperature ranges are space-rated in an almost total vacuum
environment from way-below-zero C up to +350 Celcius
so we KNOW it can handle harsh environments!

I know it kinda not fair to bring all this high-tech
up here on this board this up ...BUT....since we
do it ourselves, then it means YOU CAN BET
that Canon is doing it too!

In terms of processing power, the math is as follows
( 8192 by 6306 pixels ) x 8 bytes per pixel (16-bits
per RGB colour channel plus 16 bits for alpha channel
or a distance/depth-map channel = 51,658,752 bytes per frame
x 60 fps = 3,099,525,120 bytes per second RAW transfer rate.

Our chips can do 16 gigabytes per second RAW
so 3.1 gigs per second is PEANUTS for our gear!
So at 8 milliseconds per frame for ADC sampling
and another 8 milliseconds for compression of a video frame
to almost any video CODEC algorithm, a single 256 megabyte
L3 cache is more than enough to handle compression
to Motion JPEG or Wavelet using a four-frame video buffer
for 60 fps video output!

You do need to change the CMOS photo-site current drain
from line-by-line to a 16x16 pixel 2D-XY block which is
WHY we bond the processor to the BACK of the sensor
which allows us to divide the CPU/GPU into precisely
clocked stream processors that ONLY handle the
incoming signals from a single 16x16 photosite
block for ADC (Analog-to-Digital Conversion at
24-bits per channel downsampled to 16 bits)
and further image processing! We 3D LAYER
the stream processors since the ADC and
compression/stream processor circuitry
is quite a bit larger than any single
16x16 block of photosites.

The massively parallel architecture is typical
of what NVIDIA and AMD do on the GPU cards
of desktop PC's and laptops with the only
difference being our on-board VRAM caches,
which are HUGE!

Since we are dealing with LIMITED NUMBER of
graphics and video compression processes that
only need to be timed down to a latency of
8 milliseconds per frame, it's a TRIVIAL
engineering task!

So I am more than just sure Canon
is doing what we do simply because
WE are doing it RIGHT NOW!

Now to get the cost to below 16 000 euros
just might be a bit of an elevated effort!
 

Mikehit

EOS R6
Jul 28, 2015
3,342
544
You really should learn how to use the quote function.....

So given that Canon build all their own sensors, and given that you are doing it already makes you wonder why Canon did not show a smidgeon of this technology in previous models.

I know zip about sensor or processor production, but it seems what you are saying it is merely a case of them developing a new processor like yours, completely changing the architecture of their CMOS sensors. Oh...and reducing the cost about 5 to 10-fold.
All within 2 years.
 

jeffa4444

EOS 5D Mark IV
Feb 28, 2013
1,523
181
67
Mt Spokane Photography said:
HarryFilm said:
It's coming sooner or later! Canon 8K+ 2/3 inch, 1 inch
and MF-style sizes for Smartphones and Pro cameras
within one or two years at the most!

Its no secret that Canon is working hard on 8K 2/3 and maybe super 35 sensors. They have partnered with NKG to develop them and a schedule is set.

It was also reported some time ago that Canon is entering the sensor selling business, they have already started.

Canon has been doing R&D on very large sensors, and has provided some for astronomy use.

However, getting into the MF format business, where high MP 35mm cameras have almost killed the market, is another story. The Camera could be certainly designed, it often takes astronomical amounts of money to develop and fine tune a sensor, and Canon is geared for high volume. Then there are lenses. The EOS M has been around gor years, and lenses are appearing very slowly. You can adapt to a EF lens though. But, who would pay $50,000 for a 250 MP large format camera with only one lens available, or even two or three? Sure, they could easily make a adapter for EF lenses and crop the image to the standard FF format. I wouldn't buy that.

I just do not see a company which specializes in high volume production making a camera for a very few customers. Its not good business. There may be research going on, and even prototypes, but they will never see volume production.
The C700 has a Super 35 sensor with 4K output to CFast cards and 4.5K to dedicated Codex recorder. There is a strong possibility we will see a Vistavision sensor version that will be anywhere between 6K & 8K which would put it in the same ballpark at Red Weapon. Red also have the Super 35 Helium 8K and I can see Canon trying to match that in time.
The Vistavision format (slightly larger technically than 36X24mm) will be able to use Canon vast range of EF lenses and Leica have just announced their Cine versions of the Leica S lenses to cover up to the Arri Alexa 65 open gate area.
I'm not convinced Canon will go medium format, even for specialists like Arri the Alexa 65 uses remounted Hasselblad, Fujinon, Pentax etc. medium format lenses as the cost to develop lenses far out-weighs the cost to develop a camera.
Sensor fab for Canon in the third party market is one thing (they look at Sony with envy) , Medium format is another thing altogether and unlikely to be a reality.
 

HarryFilm

EOS RP
Jun 6, 2016
712
166
Mikehit said:
You really should learn how to use the quote function.....

So given that Canon build all their own sensors, and given that you are doing it already makes you wonder why Canon did not show a smidgeon of this technology in previous models.

I know zip about sensor or processor production, but it seems what you are saying it is merely a case of them developing a new processor like yours, completely changing the architecture of their CMOS sensors. Oh...and reducing the cost about 5 to 10-fold.
All within 2 years.

Sorry about the quotes, that was a too-quick-of-typing-fault on my part.

---

On a general basis, Canon already has the technology
(they've demoed their technology to us and we've demoed
our technology to them) and while I cannot be more specific
beyond that, it was their patent for global shutter readout
methodology that our parent company cross-licences from Canon!

Our systems CANNOT compete with Canon cost-wise!
We just don't bother and stay with high-end industrial/milspec systems!

Our markets are different BUT Canon has a few tricks
up their sleeve that will make similar technology to ours
feasible on prosumer/true professional systems costing
anywhere between 5 000 Euros up to their Cinema
EOS lines which can be in the 30 000 Euros range.

Unfortunately, I don't have any ties to Japanese
Canon Management and Engineers so I cannot
comment personally on their timelines and
future product development.

What I CAN comment on is word from friends
in the Netherlands and Germany who do have
standing with "sources" much closer to Canon
than I would ever have. It is THEIR expertise
I am relying on. I am saying TWO YEARS because
that seems to be a timetable where something
bigger is to be released as a Flagship model
for high-speed, high-resolution imaging designed
for higher-end professional sports, action, magazine
photography use!

And based upon some BASIC number crunching,
160 million Euros worth of high end large-sensor
cameras would LIKELY be sold within 4 to 6 months.
AND 2-to-4 years after that, up to a possible
1.5 to 2.0 BILLION Euros of larger-format
camera body and lens gear would be sold.

After development and marketing costs,
Canon's profit margin would be likely in
the 35%+ range besting the profit margins
of even Apple on their very profitable iPhone gear!

When the pro photographers have been saturated
with such gear, then Canon will then dig deep to wrestle
away Smartphone camera components away from Sony
where at 120 million+ phones per year, the GROSS MARGIN
will be 15% of the average wholesale price of mid-tier
smartphones FOR EVERY YEAR which will be in the area
of at least 500 million+ Euros for years to come!

That is a market Canon WILL NO LONGER IGNORE!
Powerful CMOS chips combined with GPU/CPU tech
for 8K+smartphone cameras is the wave of the
future for Canon! And based upon what I have
heard, something is coming SOONER rather
than later!

I ALSO BELIEVE that the REAL target market
is going to be mobile phones/smartphones
and any 8k+ Medium Format Still/Video
camera is merely a test bed to shrinking
new technologies down to 1/2 inch or
maybe 2/3 inch Canon CMOS sensors for
mid-tier and higher end smartphones.

I think they are BETTING BIG on entering
smartphone market by first going after
pro still camera/video users with a very
nice large-sensor medium format product
which will bring MANY ooohs and aaaahs
from the photography community AND will
ensure their upcoming combined octa-core
DIGIC Image Processor + CMOS 8K+ Sensor
technology is viable for a broader
consumer market.
 

Mikehit

EOS R6
Jul 28, 2015
3,342
544
HarryFilm said:
I ALSO BELIEVE that the REAL target market
is going to be mobile phones/smartphones
and any 8k+ Medium Format Still/Video
camera is merely a test bed to shrinking
new technologies down to 1/2 inch or
maybe 2/3 inch Canon CMOS sensors for
mid-tier and higher end smartphones.

I think they are BETTING BIG on entering
smartphone market by first going after
pro still camera/video users with a very
nice large-sensor medium format product
which will bring MANY ooohs and aaaahs
from the photography community AND will
ensure their upcoming combined octa-core
DIGIC Image Processor + CMOS 8K+ Sensor
technology is viable for a broader
consumer market.

So you are saying they will make a major commitment to develop consumer medium format digital SLR (at high risk) as a testbed for entering the 8k mobile phone market??
That is one weird strategy.

APS-C was developed before 35mm sensors purely arising from production challenges of making the first 35mm sensor. What you are proposing turns that development line on its head. Forgive my scepticism but....
 

jeffa4444

EOS 5D Mark IV
Feb 28, 2013
1,523
181
67
HarryFilm said:
Mikehit said:
You really should learn how to use the quote function.....

So given that Canon build all their own sensors, and given that you are doing it already makes you wonder why Canon did not show a smidgeon of this technology in previous models.

I know zip about sensor or processor production, but it seems what you are saying it is merely a case of them developing a new processor like yours, completely changing the architecture of their CMOS sensors. Oh...and reducing the cost about 5 to 10-fold.
All within 2 years.

Sorry about the quotes, that was a too-quick-of-typing-fault on my part.

---

On a general basis, Canon already has the technology
(they've demoed their technology to us and we've demoed
our technology to them) and while I cannot be more specific
beyond that, it was their patent for global shutter readout
methodology that our parent company cross-licences from Canon!

Our systems CANNOT compete with Canon cost-wise!
We just don't bother and stay with high-end industrial/milspec systems!

Our markets are different BUT Canon has a few tricks
up their sleeve that will make similar technology to ours
feasible on prosumer/true professional systems costing
anywhere between 5 000 Euros up to their Cinema
EOS lines which can be in the 30 000 Euros range.

Unfortunately, I don't have any ties to Japanese
Canon Management and Engineers so I cannot
comment personally on their timelines and
future product development.

What I CAN comment on is word from friends
in the Netherlands and Germany who do have
standing with "sources" much closer to Canon
than I would ever have. It is THEIR expertise
I am relying on. I am saying TWO YEARS because
that seems to be a timetable where something
bigger is to be released as a Flagship model
for high-speed, high-resolution imaging designed
for higher-end professional sports, action, magazine
photography use!

And based upon some BASIC number crunching,
160 million Euros worth of high end large-sensor
cameras would LIKELY be sold within 4 to 6 months.
AND 2-to-4 years after that, up to a possible
1.5 to 2.0 BILLION Euros of larger-format
camera body and lens gear would be sold.

After development and marketing costs,
Canon's profit margin would be likely in
the 35%+ range besting the profit margins
of even Apple on their very profitable iPhone gear!

When the pro photographers have been saturated
with such gear, then Canon will then dig deep to wrestle
away Smartphone camera components away from Sony
where at 120 million+ phones per year, the GROSS MARGIN
will be 15% of the average wholesale price of mid-tier
smartphones FOR EVERY YEAR which will be in the area
of at least 500 million+ Euros for years to come!

That is a market Canon WILL NO LONGER IGNORE!
Powerful CMOS chips combined with GPU/CPU tech
for 8K+smartphone cameras is the wave of the
future for Canon! And based upon what I have
heard, something is coming SOONER rather
than later!

I ALSO BELIEVE that the REAL target market
is going to be mobile phones/smartphones
and any 8k+ Medium Format Still/Video
camera is merely a test bed to shrinking
new technologies down to 1/2 inch or
maybe 2/3 inch Canon CMOS sensors for
mid-tier and higher end smartphones.

I think they are BETTING BIG on entering
smartphone market by first going after
pro still camera/video users with a very
nice large-sensor medium format product
which will bring MANY ooohs and aaaahs
from the photography community AND will
ensure their upcoming combined octa-core
DIGIC Image Processor + CMOS 8K+ Sensor
technology is viable for a broader
consumer market.
Your well off the mark in so many levels, size of the market, value, processing (not just taking an image but post-processing).
Sony have four or five sensor fabs (they also bought Toshiba fabs), Canon has one and are no where near ready to challenge the smart phone market.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jul 21, 2010
25,599
3,940
HarryFilm said:
I ALSO BELIEVE that the REAL target market
is going to be mobile phones/smartphones
and any 8k+ Medium Format Still/Video
camera is merely a test bed to shrinking
new technologies down to 1/2 inch or
maybe 2/3 inch Canon CMOS sensors for
mid-tier and higher end smartphones.

Sorry, but it REALLY sounds like you have NO CLUE what you're talking about.
 

Mikehit

EOS R6
Jul 28, 2015
3,342
544
He is one of the few people with access to 7nm electron beam etching - that narrows it down a bit as to who is talking - and he discusses on an open forum demonstrations Canon has made of their new technology, along with the licensing agreement that both companies have entered into. If I were Canon I would be rather pissed at that having a development partner's technician disclosing what we are doing (no idea what his employer would think).
This technician then starts to make assumptions about the development timelines decided on by Canon Japan (he admits he has no contacts there), the nature of the camera market ($2 billion sales in 2 years) and the level of Canon's profit margin based on discussions with 'friends'.

I would give the comments more kudos if it was claimed to be a high-def camera for specialist work (TV cameras covering a sporting event) but to extend it to a consumer model within 2 years is not credible.
 

Mt Spokane Photography

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Mar 25, 2011
16,675
1,630
Perhaps his "Inside" information came fron tyhis Canon press release in 2015!

"
TOKYO, September 8, 2015—Canon Inc. announced today that it is developing a Cinema EOS System 8K camera and professional-use 8K reference display that will support the production of next-generation 8K video content, along with a still-image single-lens reflex camera equipped with a CMOS sensor featuring approximately 120 million effective pixels. Through the Company’s proprietary imaging technologies, Canon provides still and video input and output devices that will contribute to the development of imaging culture.
Canon, as a leading company in the field of imaging technology, conducts research and development into devices designed to support cinema and video production with the aim of expanding the boundaries of visual expression. Through the further enhancement of the Cinema EOS System 8K camera and professional-use 8K reference display under development, Canon aims to contribute to smooth production workflows, facilitating not only the input and output of 8K video content, but also such processes as 8K to 4K down-conversion and 4K cropping.

The Cinema EOS System 8K camera being developed will be equipped with a Canon Super 35 mm-equivalent CMOS sensor that makes possible high-resolution 8,192 x 4,320 pixel (approximately 35.39 million effective pixels) imaging performance even at a frame rate of 60 frames per second with 13 stops1 of dynamic range and a richly expressive wide color gamut. Additionally, featuring a body size that realizes outstanding mobility and a design that delivers high levels of operability, along with an EF mount that offers compatibility with Canon’s extensive interchangeable EF lens lineup,2 the camera will support diverse shooting styles and means of visual expression.
Incorporating Canon image-processing technology, the ultra-high-resolution 8K reference display currently under development will achieve high brightness, high contrast (high dynamic range) and a wide color gamut. Additionally, with a pixel density exceeding 300 pixels per inch, a level approaching the limit of human visibility, the display will make possible ultra-realistic imaging that enables the reproduction of subtle changes in light that were previously not possible. Furthermore, when used in combination with the Cinema EOS System 8K camera, the display will be capable of conveying truly impressive levels of visual expression.
Featuring a resolution of approximately 120 effective megapixels, the SLR camera now being developed will incorporate a Canon-developed high-pixel-density CMOS sensor within the current EOS-series platform, which will realize compatibility with the Company’s diverse interchangeable EF lens lineup.3 The high-resolution images that the camera will be capable of producing will recreate the three-dimensional texture, feel and presence of subjects, making them appear as if they are really before one’s eyes. The camera will facilitate a level of resolution that is more than sufficient for enlarged poster-sized printout while also enabling images to be cropped and trimmed without sacrificing image resolution and clarity.
[list type=decimal]
[*]A stop is a unit of measurement used to express dynamic range, which refers to the difference between the brightest and darkest areas of an image that can be simultaneously captured.
[*]Out of the 96 lenses that make up the EF lens lineup, 78 models (60 EF lenses and 18 EF Cinema Lenses) will be compatible with the 8K camera under development.
[*]Out of the 96 lenses that make up the EF lens lineup, 60 models will be compatible with the SLR camera under development.
[/list]
 

FramerMCB

Canon 40D & 7D
CR Pro
Sep 9, 2014
477
146
54
Mt Spokane Photography said:
HarryFilm said:
It's coming sooner or later! Canon 8K+ 2/3 inch, 1 inch
and MF-style sizes for Smartphones and Pro cameras
within one or two years at the most!

Its no secret that Canon is working hard on 8K 2/3 and maybe super 35 sensors. They have partnered with NKG to develop them and a schedule is set.

It was also reported some time ago that Canon is entering the sensor selling business, they have already started.

Canon has been doing R&D on very large sensors, and has provided some for astronomy use.

However, getting into the MF format business, where high MP 35mm cameras have almost killed the market, is another story. The Camera could be certainly designed, it often takes astronomical amounts of money to develop and fine tune a sensor, and Canon is geared for high volume. Then there are lenses. The EOS M has been around gor years, and lenses are appearing very slowly. You can adapt to a EF lens though. But, who would pay $50,000 for a 250 MP large format camera with only one lens available, or even two or three? Sure, they could easily make a adapter for EF lenses and crop the image to the standard FF format. I wouldn't buy that.

I just do not see a company which specializes in high volume production making a camera for a very few customers. Its not good business. There may be research going on, and even prototypes, but they will never see volume production.

I'm wondering if Canon, as per this [vicious] rumor of a HMP MF body, would then be developing some bigger Whites with DO glass to help reduce weight...? Who knows? The great news is: we are living in great times as photographers with all of the various technological advances happening in the technologies that go into making a photographic instrument, be it a body, sensor, processor, other electronics, screens, glass, etc...
 

HarryFilm

EOS RP
Jun 6, 2016
712
166
neuroanatomist said:
HarryFilm said:
I ALSO BELIEVE that the REAL target market
is going to be mobile phones/smartphones
and any 8k+ Medium Format Still/Video
camera is merely a test bed to shrinking
new technologies down to 1/2 inch or
maybe 2/3 inch Canon CMOS sensors for
mid-tier and higher end smartphones.

Sorry, but it REALLY sounds like you have NO CLUE what you're talking about.

===

So while I do admit my PERSONAL dealings with Canon management
is pretty much non-existent, my friends are anything but unknowledgeable
about the directions of MANY camera body and sensor makers!
And I actually DO KNOW more than just a little about sensor
technology on smartphones. I am no mere technician!

...BUT...I need not disclose too much on here
OTHER THAN TO SAY that 8K 2/3 inch CMOS sensors
with aspherical and compound curve microlenses will
DEFINITELY allow Canon to enter the smartphone market
without burdening the smartphone with huge lenses!

That 41 megapixel Windows Phone from Nokia (i.e. Lumia 1020)
from 2013 had a very large and thick lens structure that is no
longer required due to the ability of high-refractive index glass
and new types of non-hemispherical microlenses that are put
on top of each sensor photosite to gather more light.
This means ultra-thin lens structures and better photos
from smartphones! Optical Zoom of course will be restricted
in scope but at such resolutions as 8k+ that might
not be so much an issue anymore.

The key Canon feature is integration of CPU/GPU image processing,
bonded to a CMOS sensor with built-in large VRAM cache and
micro-channel-based cooling for advanced thermal management.
And at 8k 60 fps being the target frame rate, Sony will and SHOULD
be quaking in their boots if Canon can get the cost down to within
10% to 20% of Sony's prices. Samsung has been itching to get out
form under Sony's dominance of smartphone camera suppliers
and Canon is well-poised to benefit under the new management
philosophy of quicker introductions of new technologies.

This is good for all still photographers and cinematographers!

I simply relay information I have received and make comments upon
it since in my world the PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING in the form of
a real-world large-sensor MF camera with a Canon logo on it!

No need to argue the merits of my posts since it is all conjecture
until I get access to videos and/or photos of said camera(s)!

I can say that we are currently in a game of Wait and See......
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jul 21, 2010
25,599
3,940
HarryFilm said:
I can say that we are currently in a game of Wait and See......

We are currently playing the same game regarding the conversion of our Sun to a red giant.

Incidentally, the existence of a prototype means very little. Back in 2000, Canon showed off a prototype for a 400mm f/4L. No such lens saw production. In 2005, they exhibited a prototype hydrogen fuel cell in the dedicated battery grip powering an EOS Kiss Digital N (Japanese version of the 350D / Rebel XT). 12 years later, we're still using Li-based rechargeable batteries in our Canon cameras.
 

Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
8,265
1,938
Canada
A long time ago, when I was young and a lot stronger than I am now, I would go out shooting with my friend, her large format camera, heavy duty tripod, and plates of film. Fortunately, she only had 2 lenses so the load was manageable by 2 people. What I remember most about those excursions was how heavy and awkward the setup was....

40 years later, the same laws of physics still apply. Large format cameras are big and they are awkward. Lenses are HUGE! (135mm was a wide angle lens :) ) By going from film to digital sensors, the manufacturing process has become quite complex and since it is for a limited market, you don't get the economies of scale for consumer goods... in other words, EXPENSIVE!!!!

I can not see how Canon could sell a large format digital camera for a reasonable price..... you are probably looking at $100,000 plus just for the body, and if you think L glass is expensive, just wait till you go large format! If you are complaining that a 1DX2 and lens is heavy, try carrying around 3 or 4 of them and that should give you an idea as to what humping around a large format camera is like.. and forget about hand held, you NEED that tripod, and it had better be a good one!

This body is most likely a research project. The market is too small to make production worth while....
 

HarryFilm

EOS RP
Jun 6, 2016
712
166
Don Haines said:
A long time ago, when I was young and a lot stronger than I am now, I would go out shooting with my friend, her large format camera, heavy duty tripod, and plates of film. Fortunately, she only had 2 lenses so the load was manageable by 2 people. What I remember most about those excursions was how heavy and awkward the setup was....

40 years later, the same laws of physics still apply. Large format cameras are big and they are awkward. Lenses are HUGE! (135mm was a wide angle lens :) ) By going from film to digital sensors, the manufacturing process has become quite complex and since it is for a limited market, you don't get the economies of scale for consumer goods... in other words, EXPENSIVE!!!!

I can not see how Canon could sell a large format digital camera for a reasonable price..... you are probably looking at $100,000 plus just for the body, and if you think L glass is expensive, just wait till you go large format! If you are complaining that a 1DX2 and lens is heavy, try carrying around 3 or 4 of them and that should give you an idea as to what humping around a large format camera is like.. and forget about hand held, you NEED that tripod, and it had better be a good one!

This body is most likely a research project. The market is too small to make production worth while....

----

While Canon a Medium Format or C700-style
65mm sensor camera IS a niche product...
BUT....when you sell a thousand C700's and
accessories for well over $40,000, I don't
think Canon cares too much since that
sort of market penetration is considered
a fantastic success.

And lately, I've seen the C700 being ORDERED
by a LOT of TV News and Crews who have
wanted the C700 style body for a very long time,
so I am guessing based upon the Euro, USA
and Asia markets, Canon has already sold at
least 1000 of them so that's 40 Million Dollars US
in just 6 months!

That is a LOT of very expensive cinema-style
cameras already in such a short period of time!
Can't argue with that sort of cash ESPECIALLY
since the Research and Development costs
were LIKELY less than $150 million US on
the C700. They will recoup their costs in
less than two years at this rate!
and with a 4-to-5 year product cycle
they will be earning a gross profit of around
$350 million US just on the wildly expensive C700!

Add in a sports/action photographer-style MF body
and large lens, then Canon has a COMPLETE WINNER!
I know from my manufacturing experience that
Canon can definitely get a 50 megapixel MF sensor
and body down to near 10 000 Euros.

The KEY FEATURE TO GREAT SALES is burst shooting speed!
if the spec of 25 fps at 50 megapixels and 7-to-10 fps for
120 megapixels is REAL, it would be a MASSIVE WIN
FOR CANON! I would buy three of them for myself
just one minute after they were put on sale!

So if this IS REAL, then it ABSOLUTELY BETTER HAVE
WHAT I WANT...which is that magical 25 fps
burst rate at 50 megapixels!

----

And regarding your lens size and expense issue,
I am very well aware how large and expensive
such lenses are! I've got one downstairs where
it literally cost us nearly $100,000 for a 4K
Fujinon Servo Zoom lens and it is BIG and HEAVY!

On a physical basis, I can ask you to try and lug
around an old 35 pound Sony Betacam SP camera and
Batteries with a 20 pound sports servo lens attached
to it onto a rolling ship or submarine or over rough terrain
AND have a 30 pound all-metal tripod strapped to your back!

Many times I was carrying WELL OVER a
100 pounds of gear with NO HELP ---
Just me and the "Crew"!

It really isn't that bad, just train yourself!
Humans can EASILY carry that sort
of gear (100 lbs - 45 kg) for 10
or more kilometres if you're well
trained enough. People are LAZY these
days...We did it ALMOST EVERY DAY for YEARS!

My current cameras, lenses, batteries
and tripods are STILL over 60 lbs of gear
and I STILL have to take it by myself
sometimes up to 5 to 10 km over rough
terrain (only a few times a year now!)
but now I'm 20 years older so it's a lot harder!

So....if I can still lug 60 lbs of gear around at my age
then I think Canon is MORE THAN CAPABLE of offering
a reasonably-priced (i.e. 10 000 Euros) 1Dx sports-body-style
Medium Format Global Shutter camera with lightweight but
Medium Format-sized lenses!
 

Mikehit

EOS R6
Jul 28, 2015
3,342
544
The question is not how good the MF camera is but what advantages it offers over the current SLR cameras.
A big challenge with a 600mm DSLR lens is not the weight but its manoeverability - it is a challenge to track a subject and change direction with it becuase of the momentum of a large lens. Add that problem to every lens in the arsenal and it becomes impractical.
See a bit of action? Try hauling that rig up to your eye in time to get the shot.

Then you have image quality - it is really going to offer real world advantages. The market today is web viewing, not magazine spreads and posters.

The market-man's worse nightmare is people who say 'oh, yes please' when someone talks hypothetically and seeing all those numbers evaporating when they see the price and the little ergonomic issues. Not to mention the storage space and the additional computer power to process those images.

You seem to be shifting your argument from your original claim about a consumer grade 120MP MF format to talking about the number they could sell to new organisations.Which one is it?
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
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Mikehit said:
You seem to be shifting your argument from your original claim about a consumer grade 120MP MF format to talking about the number they could sell to new organisations.Which one is it?

The original claim was two concurrent models, trading MP for fps like the 5Ds/5DIII, both under 16,000 €. I'm not sure if he's a troll or merely gullible and clueless.
 

CanonFanBoy

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HarryFilm said:
Don Haines said:
A long time ago, when I was young and a lot stronger than I am now, I would go out shooting with my friend, her large format camera, heavy duty tripod, and plates of film. Fortunately, she only had 2 lenses so the load was manageable by 2 people. What I remember most about those excursions was how heavy and awkward the setup was....

40 years later, the same laws of physics still apply. Large format cameras are big and they are awkward. Lenses are HUGE! (135mm was a wide angle lens :) ) By going from film to digital sensors, the manufacturing process has become quite complex and since it is for a limited market, you don't get the economies of scale for consumer goods... in other words, EXPENSIVE!!!!

I can not see how Canon could sell a large format digital camera for a reasonable price..... you are probably looking at $100,000 plus just for the body, and if you think L glass is expensive, just wait till you go large format! If you are complaining that a 1DX2 and lens is heavy, try carrying around 3 or 4 of them and that should give you an idea as to what humping around a large format camera is like.. and forget about hand held, you NEED that tripod, and it had better be a good one!

This body is most likely a research project. The market is too small to make production worth while....

----

While Canon a Medium Format or C700-style
65mm sensor camera IS a niche product...
BUT....when you sell a thousand C700's and
accessories for well over $40,000, I don't
think Canon cares too much since that
sort of market penetration is considered
a fantastic success.

And lately, I've seen the C700 being ORDERED
by a LOT of TV News and Crews who have
wanted the C700 style body for a very long time,
so I am guessing based upon the Euro, USA
and Asia markets, Canon has already sold at
least 1000 of them so that's 40 Million Dollars US
in just 6 months!

That is a LOT of very expensive cinema-style
cameras already in such a short period of time!
Can't argue with that sort of cash ESPECIALLY
since the Research and Development costs
were LIKELY less than $150 million US on
the C700. They will recoup their costs in
less than two years at this rate!
and with a 4-to-5 year product cycle
they will be earning a gross profit of around
$350 million US just on the wildly expensive C700!

Add in a sports/action photographer-style MF body
and large lens, then Canon has a COMPLETE WINNER!
I know from my manufacturing experience that
Canon can definitely get a 50 megapixel MF sensor
and body down to near 10 000 Euros.

The KEY FEATURE TO GREAT SALES is burst shooting speed!
if the spec of 25 fps at 50 megapixels and 7-to-10 fps for
120 megapixels is REAL, it would be a MASSIVE WIN
FOR CANON! I would buy three of them for myself
just one minute after they were put on sale!

So if this IS REAL, then it ABSOLUTELY BETTER HAVE
WHAT I WANT...which is that magical 25 fps
burst rate at 50 megapixels!

----

And regarding your lens size and expense issue,
I am very well aware how large and expensive
such lenses are! I've got one downstairs where
it literally cost us nearly $100,000 for a 4K
Fujinon Servo Zoom lens and it is BIG and HEAVY!

On a physical basis, I can ask you to try and lug
around an old 35 pound Sony Betacam SP camera and
Batteries with a 20 pound sports servo lens attached
to it onto a rolling ship or submarine or over rough terrain
AND have a 30 pound all-metal tripod strapped to your back!

Many times I was carrying WELL OVER a
100 pounds of gear with NO HELP ---
Just me and the "Crew"!

It really isn't that bad, just train yourself!
Humans can EASILY carry that sort
of gear (100 lbs - 45 kg) for 10
or more kilometres if you're well
trained enough. People are LAZY these
days...We did it ALMOST EVERY DAY for YEARS!

My current cameras, lenses, batteries
and tripods are STILL over 60 lbs of gear
and I STILL have to take it by myself
sometimes up to 5 to 10 km over rough
terrain (only a few times a year now!)
but now I'm 20 years older so it's a lot harder!

So....if I can still lug 60 lbs of gear around at my age
then I think Canon is MORE THAN CAPABLE of offering
a reasonably-priced (i.e. 10 000 Euros) 1Dx sports-body-style
Medium Format Global Shutter camera with lightweight but
Medium Format-sized lenses!

Have you heard from Gecko45 since he went to ground? Haven't been able to locate him for quite some time. PM me if you have any information please.
 

pwp

EOS R6
Oct 25, 2010
2,530
24
Hell is this thread still going? It was April 1 six days ago...

-pw
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
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pwp said:
Hell is this thread still going? It was April 1 six days ago...

It was NOT an April Fool's post, NOT that that means it wasn't a FOOLISH post with highly APPROPRIATE timing. ;)
 

Don Haines

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Jun 4, 2012
8,265
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Canada
Don Haines said:
I can not see how Canon could sell a large format digital camera for a reasonable price..... you are probably looking at $100,000 plus just for the body, and if you think L glass is expensive, just wait till you go large format! If you are complaining that a 1DX2 and lens is heavy, try carrying around 3 or 4 of them and that should give you an idea as to what humping around a large format camera is like.. and forget about hand held, you NEED that tripod, and it had better be a good one!

To be fair, I also can not understand why there is a market for 800+ HP cars and cars that cost over $1,000,000.... but since there is such a market and it appears to be thriving, it seems that wealth and desire triumph over common sense and practicality.... If the same holds true for large format digital cameras, then somewhere out there are the people willing to put down the big bucks.......