• UPDATE



    The forum will be moving to a new domain in the near future (canonrumorsforum.com). I have turned off "read-only", but I will only leave the two forum nodes you see active for the time being.

    I don't know at this time how quickly the change will happen, but that will move at a good pace I am sure.

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CR DeathMatch: DR, High ISO, Big MP, SoNikFuji, EVILs, IS, USM vs. STM, etc.

1. Are 18 Megapixels enough?
Yes

2. Why do we need more than 12 stops of DR?
Because developers in some companies have created them and they need to eat

3. What ISO setting will we need to take pictures on a new moon night? Do we really need anything better than the 1D X / 6D?
As long as I have my tripod it doesn't matter. You mean like a Nikon FF, heck yeah!

4. When will mirrorless camera take over? Bonus: When will they pass the Turing test???
Just because they are E.V.I.L. you assume they will take over? No, John will save the day (or Jon, if he is not shooting stars or some vegetation)

5. Assuming Sony, Nikon, or Fuji had the same lens selection as Canon, and money was no issue, would you switch? Why?
Yes. Every day. Because I could.

6. Is IS necessary on wide angle lenses? Do you even use IS on your lenses?
Isis? Who is Isis? What is she doing on a wide angle lens?

7. What's better, USM or STM?
SWM.

8. Should DSLRs have video or is just a waste of R&D & money?
A waste, especially considering videographers don't pay for the cameras, they just shoplift them.

9. Is DxOMark THE authority on lens and sensor measurements?
[/quote]
A self-proclaimed one, FWIW.
 
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That's a very interesting thread and I guess that just a few of the OP's questions will be enough to start a flame war ;D. Nevertheless, I'll weigh in with my personnal opinions and views of things based on my experience.

1. Are 18 Megapixels enough?
Unless you plan on printing poster-sized formats, I think 18 MP is plenty enough. Of course, if cropping is part of your daily processing workflow (not my case), then more MP is certainly desirable to start with but this won't necessarily translate into a higher resolution of the end-product since the lens/sensor/dataprocessing have also to be factored in.

2. Why do we need more than 12 stops of DR?
to improve the rendition of the final images, especially at high iso (>6400) where there's definitely room for improvements.

3. What ISO setting will we need to take pictures on a new moon night?
with a tripod, 100 in enough. without a tripod, I'd like a clean 409600 or more please ;D

4. When will mirrorless camera take over?
Seeing the latest progress from Fuji and Sony (improved AF and EVF), my guess is that we'll see the tipping point within five years or less. My feeling is that the "biggest change in Canon's history" being rumored here and there is in fact a complete (fast or gradual) change of the company's DSLR's lineup into a mirrorless platform (DPAF sensor anyone?), possibly with new dedicated pro-grade lenses adapted to the new platform - a bit like what Fuji has been doing for the past two years with their X platform, except with a far less retro design, with FF sensors and with products adressing pro needs.

5. Assuming Sony, Nikon, or Fuji had the same lens selection as Canon, and money was no issue, would you switch? Why?
If canon does not come up with a good mirrorless platform (i.e. pro-grade equipment) before 2015, then I'll definitely make the switch to Fuji. I already ordered their X-T1 with a XF 10-24/4 OIS lens for evaluation. Color rendering, high ISO performances, image quality, JPEG engine and EVF specs look all really excellent on the various reviews out there, and this combo has only 68% of the weight of my 6D+17-40L (850g versus 1255g) while providing an even wider field of view (Fuji's APS-C has a crop factor of 1.5, giving a 135 FoV equivalent of 15-35mm for the XF10-24/4) and image stabilization.

My need for extreme ISO performances and paper-thin DoF is limited, so I don't have a problem going back to the APS-C format. This transition will also reduce considerably the weight and size of dedicated lenses, which is important for me as I like having my photo equiment at hand as often as possible while not compromizing on performances. Since the best camera is certainly the one you have at any given moment, and I am sure I'll have the Fuji at hand more often than my bulky Canon combo whenever an interesting scene presents itself, I thus sense that Fuji has a more interesting value proposition with their X system than Canon with their EF-S or EF-M.
Moreover, I don't do sport or BIF, so I have no need for a cutting-edge AF. I also see that Fuji has some really awesome XF primes, like the 56/1.2, and I really like their lens roadmap (see here), which at least gives some perspectives for the future as opposed to Canon's opaque communication. What's more? Some of their lenses will be weather sealed (like the X-T1 body) and all XF have really excellent optical performance and mechanical constuction/finish, which cannot be said of all EF-S and EF-M lenses from canon. Finally, the EVF truely opens up a new world of flexibility compared to OVF (focus peeking, image rendition preview and live histogram...), especially for low-light and infrared works.

I think it is about time Canon step up their game in the mirrorless domain, and they do have the technology and R&D power to blow the competition out of the water if they wanted it, so there really is no excuse. If my experience with the X-T1 comes out positive and if I see that at Photokina Canon still puts most of its efforts and ressources on video-making mirrorslappers, then I'll start selling my L lenses (and eventually my 6D) to finance my gradual transition to Fuji's X platform. I think that I will end-up following this path anyway because Canon, being a large corporation (slow decision making process, choice for low-risk strategies) and already holding the #1 market spot, has no real incentive to push mirrorless innovation the way Fuji or Sony does...

6. Is IS necessary on wide angle lenses? Do you even use IS on your lenses?
I think so as this enables lower shutter speeds (for water smoothing or lower ISO setting) without having to carry a tripod around. And yes, I always use IS on lenses provided with this feature as I don't like carrying a tripod around.

7. What's better, USM or STM?
I don't do video, so I don't care.

8. Should DSLRs have video or is just a waste of R&D & money?
I see video as a nice, but not necessary addition to DSLR functionalities.

9. Is DxOMark THE authority on lens and sensor measurements?
In my view DxOMark is by no mean THE authority in lens/sensor measurements; their scoring system is way too unclear (to the point that I don't trust it) but I do like the possibility of comparing different lens+camera and sensor parameters.
 
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The carnage is well, not exactly the bloodsport fight to the death I thought it would be ;), but everyone's posts are either well-thought-out or really funny! I think rs' comment about monitors and prints should be the final post in every DR discussion, though I have seen some monitors with claim 1:2,500,000 dynamic contrast ratios, which must be like 1,000 stops of DR :o. I'll have to take a closer look at the rest of your posts later today.
 
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mackguyver said:
With all of the flame wars of late, I think we should have one thread to battle it all out for ultimate CR forum superiority. There's only two rules - try to back up what you say with evidence or examples, and nothing so bad that you get the thread locked... I'll start things off:

1. Are 18 Megapixels enough?

2. Why do we need more than 12 stops of DR?

3. What ISO setting will we need to take pictures on a new moon night? Do we really need anything better than the 1D X / 6D?

4. When will mirrorless camera take over? Bonus: When will they pass the Turing test???

5. Assuming Sony, Nikon, or Fuji had the same lens selection as Canon, and money was no issue, would you switch? Why?

6. Is IS necessary on wide angle lenses? Do you even use IS on your lenses?

7. What's better, USM or STM?

8. Should DSLRs have video or is just a waste of R&D & money?

9. Is DxOMark THE authority on lens and sensor measurements?

1. Depends

2. Because some of us have the intelligence of a retarded banana and can't expose correctly.

3. 100 - on a Nikon D800. Then lift exposure by ten stops.

4. After Buttercup willingly marries Humperdinck.

5. What do you mean ? Money is no object !

6. Definitely, because I'm a shaky old git, especially when photographing wide bridesmaids getting dressed in a confined space.

7. USM because STM sounds like a sexually transmitted disease.

8. Definitely have it, or we would miss out on the 'oooh', 'arrr' moment when we first have the camera and try it - the once.

9. No ! ( Even if I was a closet DxO fan I would still say NO so people would know I wasn't crazy).

10. Why is there no 10 ? The Op clearly doesn't think in decimal.
 
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1. Are 18 Megapixels enough?

Technically yes, but in all honesty I enjoy having more pixels. My computer is more then powerful enough to handle the images and storage is really cheap, so that's not a problem. I simply enjoy seeing all the extra detail in my images. Not because I'm a very critical pixel-peeper, or because it's vital to me to have the best quality available, but because I like to zoom in on things whilst editing my images, and having that extra bit of detail makes it just a little bit nicer for me.

2. Why do we need more than 12 stops of DR?

Because 12 stops isn't enough. I do lots of video and photography work and I very ofter get blown out highlights. Mainly through windows with indoor shots, but also with landscape or architectural work. 12 stops is decent, but I could definitely use more.

3. What ISO setting will we need to take pictures on a new moon night? Do we really need anything better than the 1D X / 6D?

I would like better performance. Current camera's are pretty good, but I use 6400 and 12800 quite a lot at events and even though the results are very good, they could be better. Wouldn't it be amazing to shoot at 6400 and get a perfectly clean file?

4. When will mirrorless camera take over? Bonus: When will they pass the Turing test???

It will probably be a while before DSLR's are completely gone but I could see it happening. The current EVF's might not be perfect but that as time go's on they will improve. The idea of having a mirror to see directly what the lens is seeing is nice, but I'd rather see what the sensor is seeing because that's whats actually taking the picture. However as far as I'm aware, autofocus is still supers with mirrors, so that's nice.

5. Assuming Sony, Nikon, or Fuji had the same lens selection as Canon, and money was no issue, would you switch? Why?

I might get an additional D800e or A7r for the resolution and dynamic range, but I would definitely keep my 5D Mark III. If I could really only have one, then it would be the 5D.

6. Is IS necessary on wide angle lenses? Do you even use IS on your lenses?

Absolutely. Obviously IS isn't going to work everywhere, but in situations where it does, it can make a big difference. I mainly enjoy Architectural and landscape photography, and if I don't have a tripod with me, IS can be a big help. Many lenses have a 4 stop image stabilizer, so that means a 4 stop slower shutter speed, and therefore 4 stops lower ISO. In low light situations that can mean the difference between ISO 6400 of ISO 800, and in my opinion, that's a big difference.

7. What's better, USM or STM?

No idea, I have never used an STM lens, but since it's mainly the cheaper lenses that have STM, I'm guessing USM is better...

8. Should DSLRs have video or is just a waste of R&D & money?

I like having video in my DSLR although honestly that is mainly because of my budget. I'm not that rich so the fact that I can use my body's and lenses for both photography and video is great. If money wasn't an issue I would probably have a dedicate video camera alongside my DSLR.

9. Is DxOMark THE authority on lens and sensor measurements?

They shouldn't be...


After all my complaining I would just like to say that I'm very happy with my 5D III :)
 
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1. To me 18MP is plenty - I wouldn't mind more but only if there was NO compromise in ISO performance.

2. I am not having issues with DR, more is obviously better just not a particular issue to me.

3. I am finding the usable ISO range on my 1DX great, again more would be better especially below ISO 50.

4. Mirroless cameras are of zero use to me. When they can AF fast, have a viewfinder/screen that I can use in real world lighting conditions, balance properly on large lenses and have a decent size battery - then I will be interested.

5. Switch brand? Only Nikon offers the sort of lens range that I mainly use - tried a couple (with D800e and D4) - staying with Canon for foreseeable future.

6. Don't find much use for IS on my 800mm F5.6 - on a wide angle? No thanks - it just adds another (dead) element that serves no purpose for me and IS slows down AF..

7. No idea - so long as it works I am happy!

8. DSLR's have Video?

9. Err no.
 
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