D800 v. 5D3 threads: What should Canon's takeaway be?

[V8Beast]

Anywho, for my business I cant afford not to get this camera over the 5d2, which as a body as a whole, was horrid.

I'm thinking your opinion has to do with the fact that you're a working pro who uses his gear in the field as a means of feeding his kids ? Both the 5DC and 5DII were cameras in which you loved the IQ, but were terrible in almost every other regard. Yeah, you could limp your way through a shoot despite their pathetic AF, viewfinders, burst rate, weather sealing, and shutter lag - and you were willing to do this because the IQ was so nice - but overall they handled like $hit.

On the other hand, 5DIII isn't a camera that's meant to impress on paper. It's meant to impress out in the field. The very features that online tech geeks overlook and disregard as either modest or useless improvements are the same ones that make the 5DIII so enjoyable to use in the field. I loved my 5DC's IQ, but that's about it. In every other regard, it's a pile of junk

 

[awinphoto]

Canon is charging "wow" prices for a machine that is only a "nice upgrade."

Have to disagree, but I suppose it depends on one's PoV. Canon's deceptive claims ("2-stop improvement") aside, IQ wasn't broke on the 5DII, and it didn't need fixing. AF was pretty sad, and combining the 5DII's IQ with the 1-series AF system is more than merely 'nice' IMO.

When the competition are THREE usable stops better, yeah it does need some fixing.

dude, you've been all over this camera since it was released, we get it, you dont like it, DONT GET IT... I hate to break it to ya, but canon isn't going to recall the camera just to add dr... So unless they come out with a big MP big DR camera sometime in the near future, you got a good 3 years to wait, and 2 years from now i hope you're still not on CR still griping about the 5d3... It's released, it's done, lets get over it or if you want to send canon a message, dont buy it... or even better jump to nikon so we can take a break from your negativity...

 

[V8Beast]

WTF?!? Fanatical? GTFO! Dramatic?!? You don't know what the f___ you're talking about. Get off these boards if you can't approach things in a civil, calm, and non-sarcastic manner.

By internet standards, this is actually a rather level-headed rant

 

[awinphoto]

Anywho, for my business I cant afford not to get this camera over the 5d2, which as a body as a whole, was horrid.

I'm thinking your opinion has to do with the fact that you're a working pro who uses his gear in the field as a means of feeding his kids ? Both the 5DC and 5DII were cameras in which you loved the IQ, but were terrible in almost every other regard. Yeah, you could limp your way through a shoot despite their pathetic AF, viewfinders, burst rate, weather sealing, and shutter lag - and you were willing to do this because the IQ was so nice - but overall they handled like $hit.

On the other hand, 5DIII isn't a camera that's meant to impress on paper. It's meant to impress out in the field. The very features that online tech geeks overlook and disregard as either modest or useless improvements are the same ones that make the 5DIII so enjoyable to use in the field. I loved my 5DC's IQ, but that's about it. In every other regard, it's a pile of junk

Yep... I never had issue with IQ, if the camera could keep up with what I needed it to do in the field and gave me enough keepers to sell to my clients, I would be thrilled, but especially owning a 7d, using the AF, the features, the body, everything, then moving to the 5d2, as a body, felt like a step backwards. The IQ wasn't enough to make up for an OOF shot. The 5d3 is everything I could have asked for... Plus it's a workhorse I hopefully could use to carry me for the next few years...

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Canon is charging "wow" prices for a machine that is only a "nice upgrade."

Have to disagree, but I suppose it depends on one's PoV. Canon's deceptive claims ("2-stop improvement") aside, IQ wasn't broke on the 5DII, and it didn't need fixing. AF was pretty sad, and combining the 5DII's IQ with the 1-series AF system is more than merely 'nice' IMO.

When the competition are THREE usable stops better, yeah it does need some fixing.

dude, you've been all over this camera since it was released, we get it, you dont like it, DONT GET IT... I hate to break it to ya, but canon isn't going to recall the camera just to add dr... So unless they come out with a big MP big DR camera sometime in the near future, you got a good 3 years to wait, and 2 years from now i hope you're still not on CR still griping about the 5d3... It's released, it's done, lets get over it or if you want to send canon a message, dont buy it... or even better jump to nikon so we can take a break from your negativity...

Dude the topic of this thread is freaking asking what aspect of the sensor you most want Canon to fix and what message do you want Canon to take away from the 5D3 vs D800!

And I didn't say I hated the camera in general. I don't at all. I've said many times the improved speed and handling and AF a great and very important upgrades. They are fantastic upgrades. (And interestingly, almost exactly match many of the rants in the forums.) They nailed all those specs this time. Great stuff.

But yeah the low ISO sensor performance is a pretty big let down, not one bit better than half a decade ago, and that was kind of a shock that I don't think many expected. On that particular aspect it is quite a shame, especially since so much of everything else was gotten right this time.

The sensor is not all lost though since they did bump it almost 2/3rds stops better SNR which is pretty solid.

It's a good cam just way too bad about the low ISO dynamic range.

 

[t.linn]

So is the assumption that since Canon addressed the 5DII's poor AF, it was based on feedback from message boards? I'm not saying opinions voiced on message boards don't matter, but Canon has far more sophisticated methods of conducting market research. The online crowd, whether it's quilting forum or a photography forum, tends to be quite fanatical and dramatic, and has a knack of blowing things out of proportion

I think customer feedback can make a difference whether it is in forums or reviews or blog posts or where ever, V8Beast. I can give you another example. I think of Syl Arena's blog post several years back on Canon's Speedlite system. It resonated with people and Canon let him know they had read the post and was monitoring the responses. Several years later a vastly improved new flash system update is introduced that closely conforms to Syl's original wishlist. I'm not saying that Syl spec'd the new system but Syl's post and the big response helped crystallize and confirm what users were looking for.

I understand that it's not the individual rant that matters. But I do think that a vocal consensus among users matters. (If folks aren't vocal then it would be safe to assume that no one cares about a particular issue. And if there's not a general consensus then all the noise may not provide much useful guidance.) I was personally interested in whether or not there was a consensus in favor of DR or resolution and I'm pleased to see that there seems to be more consensus in favor of DR then I had expected.

 

[unfocused]

The reason I posed my question is because Canon officials have said on several occasions that they will be watching the market response to higher megapixel DSLRs before deciding how to respond. It would be unfortunate if they interpreted the positive response to the D800 as a positive response to resolution rather than image quality—and DR in particular.

It would only be unfortunate if the positive response to the D800 is due to dynamic range. But, what inside market research has anyone on this forum done to know that it isn't due to resolution? Just because we might want it to be something, doesn't make it so.

Canon is going to do market research on the 5DIII and the D800 (and dozens of other cameras). Rather than rely on a small, vocal, non-representative sample of individuals on internet forums, they will be talking to real customers.

I hate to break it to ya, but Canon isn't going to recall the camera just to add DR.

Exactly. The 5DIII and the D800 have now been released. Take your pick or take a pass. But people need to quit obsessing over what their dream camera might have been. Sorry, this model does not come delivered by a fairy princess riding a unicorn. Maybe next time.

 

[Loswr]

Canon's takeaway, such as it is, from the D800 vs. 5DIII debate will come 99.5% from relative sales figures/estimates, and 0.5% from everything else.

I was personally interested in whether or not there was a consensus in favor of DR or resolution and I'm pleased to see that there seems to be more consensus in favor of DR then I had expected.

Except that there's sampling bias in your straw poll, like a poll about an upcoming US presidential election where you call only Democrats and surprise, surprise, the Democratic candidate comes out on top. Lots of people in this thread are lamenting the fact that there has been no improvement in the DR of Canon's CMOS sensors for several years and for all of those years, Canon has lagged well behind Nikon in sensor DR. Canon's sales of CMOS-contaning cameras has steadily increased over that same period, at the expense of Nikon's market share. Canon's camera division exists to sell cameras, period. Conclusion = DR is irrelevant to camera sales, and thus DR is irrelevant to Canon. True story.

 

[Tcapp]

Canon's takeaway, such as it is, from the D800 vs. 5DIII debate will come 99.5% from relative sales figures/estimates, and 0.5% from everything else.

I was personally interested in whether or not there was a consensus in favor of DR or resolution and I'm pleased to see that there seems to be more consensus in favor of DR then I had expected.

Except that there's sampling bias in your straw poll, like a poll about an upcoming US presidential election where you call only Democrats and surprise, surprise, the Democratic candidate comes out on top. Lots of people in this thread are lamenting the fact that there has been no improvement in the DR of Canon's CMOS sensors for several years and for all of those years, Canon has lagged well behind Nikon in sensor DR. Canon's sales of CMOS-contaning cameras has steadily increased over that same period, at the expense of Nikon's market share. Canon's camera division exists to sell cameras, period. Conclusion = DR is irrelevant to camera sales, and thus DR is irrelevant to Canon. True story.

unfortunate but true.

 

[t.linn]

A it worrisome is the guy who has some in with Canon seemed to give the impression that all they see is MP and they don't get the dynamic range bit at all.

To be fair, both quotes were in response to questions specifically about Canon's decisions concerning resolution. The first was made in response to a question about the rumored high megapixel Nikon body and how this would affect development of the 5D3. Neither camera had been introduced yet. The second response was made after both cameras had been introduced and the answer was basically the same: If we find that users really respond to the higher megapixel bodies we can produce one in short order. (My paraphrase.)

And that they could drop a 45MP camera with the same poor DR and 2-3fps and no crop modes like the D800 for speed and think it would be the most awesome thing ever just because it has 9 more MP than the D800 even though it would get creamed for dynamic range and fps.

Exactly. It would be unfortunate if the response to the success of the D800 body is that Canon gives users more megapixels in the form of a sensor with worse noise and potentially worse DR. (Don't read this as a complaint about the 5D3's noise. My point is that we would be going backward.)

 

[V8Beast]

I think customer feedback can make a difference whether it is in forums or reviews or blog posts or where ever, V8Beast. I can give you another example. I think of Syl Arena's blog post several years back on Canon's Speedlite system. It resonated with people and Canon let him know they had read the post and was monitoring the responses. Several years later a vastly improved new flash system update is introduced that closely conforms to Syl's original wishlist. I'm not saying that Syl spec'd the new system but Syl's post and the big response helped crystallize and confirm what users were looking for.

I agree that listening to all feedback is important, but like all companies Canon has to weed out the fanatics from the serious users. Translation: all feedback is welcome, but feedback from people who are willing to spend the money and contribute to a company's quarterly earnings are much more important. On the internet, you get people that talk a lot of trash, but don't put their money where there mouths are

As for Syl Arena's blog post, I can assure that he was one of MANY professional photographers urging Canon to offer flashes that don't require adding on third-party gear to maximize their potential. Pros didn't suddenly recognize this void only after reading Syl's blog I'm sure Syl's post helped Canon realize the shortcomings of their flash system, but he was just one of many pros that expressed a similar opinion to Canon, and I doubt he was the first to bring this to Canon's attention.

 

[t.linn]

Canon's takeaway, such as it is, from the D800 vs. 5DIII debate will come 99.5% from relative sales figures/estimates, and 0.5% from everything else.

Yes and no. You have to interpret those sales figures. That gets to the heart of my question. If sales figures trend in a particular direction, Canon has to draw a conclusion as to why in order to respond.

I completely agree that the responses to my question don't constitute a statistically valid anything; but it does interest me that among this group of Canon loyalists who have now been exposed to a camera that offers a significant resolution bump and a significant DR improvement that DR improvement remains the priority.

 

[V8Beast]

It would be unfortunate if the response to the success of the D800 body is that Canon gives users more megapixels in the form of a sensor with worse noise and potentially worse DR. (Don't read this as a complaint about the 5D3's noise. My point is that we would be going backward.)

A photographers, that would be unfortunate, but such a camera would probably sell like crack for Canon. Since the 10D back in 2003 to the 7D of today, the overall IQ of Canon's APS-C sensors haven't improved much at all. ISO is up a wee bit, and DR has improved less than a stop. However, the megapixels have tripled and as neuro pointed out, Canon's market share has increased.

So if you're a Canon exec, why would you think DR is nearly as important as all the internet fanatics think it is? I'll take all the DR I can get, but it's just one out of dozens of different variables that go into capturing an image.

 

[t.linn]

I agree that listening to all feedback is important, but like all companies Canon has to weed out the fanatics from the serious users. Translation: all feedback is welcome, but feedback from people who are willing to spend the money and contribute to a company's quarterly earnings are much more important. On the internet, you get people that talk a lot of trash, but don't put their money where there mouths are

Absolutely.

As for Syl Arena's blog post, I can assure that he was one of MANY professional photographers urging Canon to offer flashes that don't require adding on third-party gear to maximize their potential. Pros didn't suddenly recognize this void only after reading Syl's blog I'm sure Syl's post helped Canon realize the shortcomings of their flash system, but he was just one of many pros that expressed a similar opinion to Canon, and I doubt he was the first to bring this to Canon's attention.

I don't disagree at all with this. I was merely trying to use Syl as a concrete instance where feedback helped influence Canon's decision making process—by Canon's own admission.

 

[t.linn]

It would be unfortunate if the response to the success of the D800 body is that Canon gives users more megapixels in the form of a sensor with worse noise and potentially worse DR. (Don't read this as a complaint about the 5D3's noise. My point is that we would be going backward.)

A photographers, that would be unfortunate, but such a camera would probably sell like crack for Canon.

God help us.

So if you're a Canon exec, why would you think DR is nearly as important as all the internet fanatics think it is?

This is what I've been trying to get at. If Canon looks at the 5D3 sales and says, "Wow. Sales are even better than we had hoped," then there's no reason to think anything will change. However, if the D800 is affecting sales, I'm hoping that Canon correctly interprets this. If they look at the overwhelmingly positive response to the D800, I'm hoping they don't say, "More megapixels is what we need."

I'll take all the DR I can get, but it's just one out of dozens of different variables that go into capturing an image.

Agreed. But I'm specifically talking about DR because I think it's the one area where Canon is demonstrably falling behind in their sensor tech. Others may disagree.

 

[UrbanVoyeur]

Wow, there are just so many misassumptions there that I'm not even sure where to begin. You don't, by any chance, do cost analyses for the US government, do you?

No I don't . But I have been buying and using the Canon EOS system for over 20 years. I still own several EOS film cameras, and I can match them just about feature for feature with their their digital counterparts. Build quality, lens mount quality, sealing, shutter MTF, % VF, auto-focus points, metering, etc.

I've come to know how much of a price increase there was when Canon "improved weather sealing", "added metering modes", "increased VF %" or "increased the number or AF points" between one model year and the next. Answer: essentially $0.

I also know what each of the film cameras cost new, and in many cases, what it cost to have all or parts of the film transport replaced or repaired. I've been pretty hard on some of these cameras.

So when I look at a Canon digital camera, I also look at it's nearest film sibling. The difference in price between the two, minus the retail parts cost of replacing the film transport, is the "digital premium" Canon is charging me for that camera. I am not talking about what it costs Canon to make the camera. I don't know and I don't care. I am only concerned with what Canon is charging me for the digital features.

So if the Canon EOS 3 ($800 new) and the 5MkIII ($3500 new) are nearly identical in build and features. And I was charged $275 in parts for replacing a destroyed film transport, then retail price of the non-digital parts of and EOS 3 type body I can assume is $500. NOT what it cost Canon, but what they are charging me for it.

Likewise, if an EOS 3 body is like a 5MkIII body, then the digital premium - what Canon is charging me for the sensors, chips and software - on the 5 MkIII is $3000. ($3500-$500)

Do the same analysis for the Nikon D800. It has a film sibling that sold for around 800-900. Assume the film transport price is the same. The Nikon digital premium is $2500, for 36 MP and near medium format performance.

So the question for me becomes, is that $3000 Canon digital premium worth it. My answer, in this case, is no, not when compared to the MkII and not when compared to the value offered by Nikon.

The analysis would be just as valid if I took off nothing for the film transport. The digital premium would still be there, and Canon would still be offering less value than Nikon, and an insignificant improvement over the MkII

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Canon's takeaway, such as it is, from the D800 vs. 5DIII debate will come 99.5% from relative sales figures/estimates, and 0.5% from everything else.

I was personally interested in whether or not there was a consensus in favor of DR or resolution and I'm pleased to see that there seems to be more consensus in favor of DR then I had expected.

Except that there's sampling bias in your straw poll, like a poll about an upcoming US presidential election where you call only Democrats and surprise, surprise, the Democratic candidate comes out on top. Lots of people in this thread are lamenting the fact that there has been no improvement in the DR of Canon's CMOS sensors for several years and for all of those years, Canon has lagged well behind Nikon in sensor DR. Canon's sales of CMOS-contaning cameras has steadily increased over that same period, at the expense of Nikon's market share. Canon's camera division exists to sell cameras, period. Conclusion = DR is irrelevant to camera sales, and thus DR is irrelevant to Canon. True story.

That's wayyy too simplified of a conclusion there.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

I think customer feedback can make a difference whether it is in forums or reviews or blog posts or where ever, V8Beast. I can give you another example. I think of Syl Arena's blog post several years back on Canon's Speedlite system. It resonated with people and Canon let him know they had read the post and was monitoring the responses. Several years later a vastly improved new flash system update is introduced that closely conforms to Syl's original wishlist. I'm not saying that Syl spec'd the new system but Syl's post and the big response helped crystallize and confirm what users were looking for.

I agree that listening to all feedback is important, but like all companies Canon has to weed out the fanatics from the serious users. Translation: all feedback is welcome, but feedback from people who are willing to spend the money and contribute to a company's quarterly earnings are much more important. On the internet, you get people that talk a lot of trash, but don't put their money where there mouths are

Actually forum posters seem to have more high end stuff, more money put into it, than the average user from what I see. You see a lot more talk of people owning super-tele, T&S, fast L primes, etc. on forums.

 

[pdirestajr]

A solution for increased dynamic range on the sensor is to learn how to light properly.

A solution to increased performance in low light is to add a bit of light.

A fix for the light leak controversy of 2012 is to take pictures with the lens cap off.

I see a trend here, web-forum-complaining-photographers need to invest more time in lighting, and finding the light.

After all, photography is actually about making exposures WITH LIGHT.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

A solution for increased dynamic range on the sensor is to learn how to light properly.

A solution to increased performance in low light is to add a bit of light.

yeah whatever you say