DPReview: Review of the Canon EOS R5

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Deleted member 384473

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9 July 2020
footnotes, #26:
xxvi Video recording size is 8K 30p movies with full Dual Pixel CMOS AF II autofocus and no crop. The video recording time of the Canon EOS R5 and Canon EOS R6 is are limited by heat.

That’s it?? LOL. Bro, I’m still standing by my comments. Very dishonest and poor marketing from Canon.
 

Michael Clark

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The trouble with the R5 you’re paying a large premium for those video features that aren’t reliable. I don’t mind the recording times as much as the glacial recovery from overheating annd even worse an hour of just stills shooting can render HQ video modes unusable as camera has already reached thermal limits. The body design is very poor in that it has woeful thermal conductivity properties and traps heat for up to 2 hours. They really do need to make a physical change rather than just rely on fw hacks. It’s a bit rich for people to now claim it’s not a video camera, when it was Canon that was pushing 8K as the headline act. Also the 4K line skipped video is poor quality and the H.265 codec I’ve heard is a nightmare to try and work with in editing. I’m sure fw will address some issues but the poor thermals are intrinsic to their body design and choice of materials. I really want to get the R5 but will dealy that purchase for at least 6 months and hope by Q1 next year soemthingnhas been done.
How is $3,899 USD a large premium when previous 5-series cameras introduced in 2012 and 2016 were both $3,499 at introduction and did not have anything approaching the stills, not to mention video capabilities, of the R5?

Adjusted for inflation, $3,499 in 2012 is $3,928 in 2020 according to https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/
 
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privatebydesign

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A few comments
  1. The Atomos Ninja V can support 4k 120 at 4:2:2 with one Sony camera. Based on Wikipedia HDMI standards this would indicate it has HDMI 2.1. If it has 2.1 then it will support 8K modes (pending firmware and other possible limitations).

  2. I can't see what HDMI the R5 uses. If it is 2.0 to 2.0b then it could do 4K120/8K at 4:2:0. I can't comment if that is sufficient for people or not (vs 4:2:2). Whether Atomos plan with Canon to support these higher modes (120fps, 8k), don't know.

  3. Armando Ferreira also stated that many studios would use multiple cameras on a shoot, and for each take it would only be required for minutes. In this other use case he said it failed. Fair enough. Not sure that equates then to the headline. A single body, in a specific use case doesnt work for him. Enough such scenarios and he might conclude a single R5 doesnt work for him. He's also said (earlier video) he would shoot 8k for occasional shoots (like from drone).

  4. The overheating on the R5 and R6 both seem to occur when the source bitrate (before compresssion) is around 12.6Gbps. I've used that based on the output rate which HDMI uses. I accept that it is an approximation and internally (pre compression) the R5/R6 may not be pulling quite that much data. Half the frame rate and the amount of data (approx) halves also. Hence the 30p and below are ok.

  5. Over HDMI, the 4K60 doesnt overheat, but the 4k60 crop does. The crop mode samples from 5.1k or 4.8k, presume the 4k60 All-I doesnt. Assuming (big IF), that the 4K60 external needs little manipulation (HDMI is uncompressed), then does this not eliminate the issue on the sensor / IBIS etc. Sure they contribute heat, but they don't push it over the limit.

  6. Whether it is sampling and sending over HDMI (uncompressed), or storing internally (compressed) this is where the additional work generates more heat and over a period of time, leads to the shutdown. I do not know for sure if that sampling is done in HW (assume it would be based on the rates), and the H265 encoding needs hw encoding support (they're not doing it in sw - I based that on PC encoding in SW). How much writing to the CFExpress / UHS II at higher bit rates raises the temperature I don't know. Whether you can use H264 but match the quality (perhaps at the expense of some storage), again not sure - but one would assume they looked at the H264/265 and concluded the H265 gave them the best results. Again, how much you can tweak the H265 encoding to require less Digic but maintain the quality will be one area Canon might look at.

  7. Any stills manipulation on Raw / cRAW would presume to also be using Digic (noise reduction, cRAW compression, and hence why it also contributes to raising the internal temperature.
Ultimately, every design has some trade-off and individuals need to decide whether it works for them or not. Pick through all the noise, try and find the info that is relevant for you: chose to buy, chose to wait, chose to change brand, chose to rent and try, chose to buy but return. Your money, your choice. You can discuss it here if you want opinion, or you can conclude without discussion and go with that. As others have mentioned, be aware at what motivates whoever is supplying the information (that goes for all "news" on a global basis)... All that glitters is not gold as I remember from my school days, lol.
1: Atomos themselves list the Ninja V as HDMI 2.0
1597002154397.png


2: Canon specifically state in the R5 manual " HDMI output of 8k movies not supported." Page 905

1597002459974.png
 

Michael Clark

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All true. No overheating info in the user manual but it was updated under specifications under Video Shooting a few days after Pre-order launch. Luckily there’s a back order and lots of Pre-orders haven’t been charged giving customers time to explore. Then another 30 days once the camera is in hand :)
The heat related time limits were mentioned in the initial introduction in Japan on July 9 (when it was still July 8 in much of the world). Please stop saying Canon did not reveal this until several days later. It's simply not true. See comment #60. It's a screenshot of a machine translated version of Canon's R5/R6 announcement in Japan.


There's also this article from EOSHD, published on July 9, 2020.
 
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Nelu

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That’s it?? LOL. Bro, I’m still standing by my comments. Very dishonest and poor marketing from Canon.
I’m sorry but I have to agree with this.
”The video recording time of the Canon EOS R5 is limited by heat.”
That’s all they mentioned in that release article regarding heat limiting.
Pretty vague, don’t you think?
 
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Deleted member 384473

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The heat related time limits were mentioned in the initial introduction in Japan on July 9 (when it was still July 8 in much of the world). Please stop saying Canon did not reveal this until several days later. It's simply not true. See comment #60. It's a screenshot of a machine translated version of Canon's R5/R6 announcement in Japan.


There's also this article from EOSHD, published on July 9, 2020.
Michael, at least go through the past threads to see where others and I discussed and agreed Canon did have info in the manual after this comment you cherry picked. You're replying to an old thread - in other words: You're late to the party... Obvs just wanting some sort of attention. Move on to the next article, mate.
 
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1: Atomos themselves list the Ninja V as HDMI 2.0
View attachment 192047

2: Canon specifically state in the R5 manual " HDMI output of 8k movies not supported." Page 905

View attachment 192048
Re Atomos Thank you for taking the effort to find that out. Guess they're still working on a 2.1 version which will be silly-expensive

Re 8K - Yeah I am puzzled still - Canon has an 8 bit 4:2:0 mode, and you can output that over HDMI 2.0 so not entirely sure why they didnt do it - unless they consider that no-one yet supports it so don't create a problem for their support desk, wait for the recorders to come, and then enable in fw.
 
How's that theory holding up?

Doesn't it indicate subsampling / downsampling isn't pushing it over the heat threshold (HDMI uncompressed), but encoding / compressing / Local I/O is more intensive and pushes it over the limit....
 
Re Atomos Thank you for taking the effort to find that out. Guess they're still working on a 2.1 version which will be silly-expensive

Re 8K - Yeah I am puzzled still - Canon has an 8 bit 4:2:0 mode, and you can output that over HDMI 2.0 so not entirely sure why they didnt do it - unless they consider that no-one yet supports it so don't create a problem for their support desk, wait for the recorders to come, and then enable in fw.
Rightttttttt....... Seems that the 4k120 that is supported on a Sony is in fact sent across as a 4K60p but for double the duration. I don't quite get how they've done it but ok. As you say, the Atomos Ninja V is an HDMI 2.0 device, and there is a forthcoming 8K unit for their Neon range which will have HDMI 2.1, and presumably at some stage after its launch, there may be a new Ninja 8K. But for the foreseeable, Atomos won't support 4K120 out of the Canon (unless they do a similar tweak as the Sony), nor 8K modes. Technically, wiki indicates HDMI 2.0b can do a 4k120/8k30 mode, but seems now that this isn't going to be supported by anyone

Stand corrected.... My bad...
 

HarryFilm

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Jun 6, 2016
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"There are two things that are infinite - the Universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the first"

Black Holes and Hawking radiation are a pretty good real-world confirmation that energy AND information is not always conserved. Plus, I do note we have a quite a few fellow employees who actually DO have multiple Ph.D's and Post-Doctoral work in Particle and Nuclear Physics, Astronomy, Quantum Chromodynamics, plasmadynamics, etc etc. --- And since MANY of them are award winning and have numerous patents to their name, I think I will CONCUR with THEIR suppositions and statements that mass and energy are NOT always conserved and that THERE ARE TECHNOLOGIES available (i.e. they HAVE MADE THEM!) that break quite a few of the current rules of physics AND YES we do have some extremely distinguished worldwide renowned physics names on our in-house committees!

Hmmm..... I'm not sure I was supposed to disclose all that! .... :) ;-)

Oh well .... I guess THEM EGGHEADS are one of the reasons why we have a dark navy blue FTL space-capable isosceles triangle sitting in a hangar at YVR .....

V
 

Cat_Interceptor

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Black Holes and Hawking radiation are a pretty good real-world confirmation that energy AND information is not always conserved. Plus, I do note we have a quite a few fellow employees who actually DO have multiple Ph.D's and Post-Doctoral work in Particle and Nuclear Physics, Astronomy, Quantum Chromodynamics, plasmadynamics, etc etc. --- And since MANY of them are award winning and have numerous patents to their name, I think I will CONCUR with THEIR suppositions and statements that mass and energy are NOT always conserved and that THERE ARE TECHNOLOGIES available (i.e. they HAVE MADE THEM!) that break quite a few of the current rules of physics AND YES we do have some extremely distinguished worldwide renowned physics names on our in-house committees!

Hmmm..... I'm not sure I was supposed to disclose all that! .... :) ;-)

Oh well .... I guess THEM EGGHEADS are one of the reasons why we have a dark navy blue FTL space-capable isosceles triangle sitting in a hangar at YVR .....

V
Refusing to reveal secret knowledge about super science is pretty much saying either you are knowingly trolling or just plain stupid.

Your call on that one.
 

SteveC

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Refusing to reveal secret knowledge about super science is pretty much saying either you are knowingly trolling or just plain stupid.

Your call on that one.
More like bragging about it then saying Oh I Shouldn't Have Said That Better Stop Now is trolling.

Not to mention if he were really working some sort of secret project and he slipped like that we'd never hear from him again because he'd be in the Federal Graybar Hotel.

I've never understood how some people can be so damn pathetic they feel the need to be bullshitters.
 

Michael Clark

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Apr 5, 2016
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Michael, at least go through the past threads to see where others and I discussed and agreed Canon did have info in the manual after this comment you cherry picked. You're replying to an old thread - in other words: You're late to the party... Obvs just wanting some sort of attention. Move on to the next article, mate.
Says the user who has posted the same complaint on this thread 578 times ad nauseum...
 

SteveC

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Says the user who has posted the same complaint on this thread 578 times ad nauseum...
Oh, for pete's sake, get your facts straight, it has been 579 times.

The question I have is whether Sony is paying him for every time, or whether they keep withholding the pay saying "maybe next time" and he falls for it like Charlie Brown and the football.
 

BeenThere

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Black Holes and Hawking radiation are a pretty good real-world confirmation that energy AND information is not always conserved. Plus, I do note we have a quite a few fellow employees who actually DO have multiple Ph.D's and Post-Doctoral work in Particle and Nuclear Physics, Astronomy, Quantum Chromodynamics, plasmadynamics, etc etc. --- And since MANY of them are award winning and have numerous patents to their name, I think I will CONCUR with THEIR suppositions and statements that mass and energy are NOT always conserved and that THERE ARE TECHNOLOGIES available (i.e. they HAVE MADE THEM!) that break quite a few of the current rules of physics AND YES we do have some extremely distinguished worldwide renowned physics names on our in-house committees!

Hmmm..... I'm not sure I was supposed to disclose all that! .... :) ;-)

Oh well .... I guess THEM EGGHEADS are one of the reasons why we have a dark navy blue FTL space-capable isosceles triangle sitting in a hangar at YVR .....

V
I think I saw that episode of X-Files. :D
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
3,057
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Doesn't it indicate subsampling / downsampling isn't pushing it over the heat threshold (HDMI uncompressed), but encoding / compressing / Local I/O is more intensive and pushes it over the limit....
To me it seems to suggest that the real source of the heat issue is the memory card. CFExpress cards are basically M2 cards in a much smaller form factor. If full size motherboards need fans to cool M2 cards...
 
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Deleted member 384473

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Oh, for pete's sake, get your facts straight, it has been 579 times.

The question I have is whether Sony is paying him for every time, or whether they keep withholding the pay saying "maybe next time" and he falls for it like Charlie Brown and the football.
Cute.