DxOMark scores for 5DMkIII out - total score 81, 5DMkII had 79

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Re: DxO results out for 5D3

I think you may be encountering banding, which is different from FPN (which by definition is fixed and cannot vary.) Banding, according to a couple who have posted on this forum and over on DPR, is often the result of electronic interference...possibly even from the camera's own battery interface, possibly from other sources. I've seen a lot of sample shots from new 5D III owners...some exhibit definite banding at low ISO in the deep shadows, where as some don't seem to exhibit banding at all. It may just be related to manufacturing tolerance, and you might be able to resolve the issue by swapping your body for another one (although you might have to do that a few times to get one that doesn't exhibit banding...assuming its a sample issue at all...you may just have some electronic or radio frequencies in the areas you've been shooting that are strong enough to interfere with any inadequately shielded electronics in the camera.)

It's super hard to get rid of all banding without using digital CDS and column ADCs because it's hard to tune all the read out electronics the same and make sure they all react to the stuff you mention in ways that won't make banding.

 

[2020digging]

Re: DxO results out for 5D3

Dude, if a personal friend of yours took a personality test and did poorly because science says so based on various scientific values is their science more important than your experience with that person?

Maybe not, but it would certainly inform your current and future relationships with your friend from that point on. Your friend might have been assessed as having sociopathic tendencies - something you would ignore at your peril. And at the same time if you're not open to this information then it's pointless anyway.
Similarly with the camera I guess! Added technical information may assist in making you see more objectively about something which can obviously be measured objectively but in most cases is measured subjectively. Unlike the analogy with your friend though a camera is less likely do you any more harm than not allow you to optimise it as you believe you could or should - given the technology that is offered to you against your current and/or other competing brands. Which, I dare say, most people buy on spec, reputation, brand loyalty etc rather than extensive subjective experiences with the model.
In any case, you can disregard any technical information you want to and continue to enjoy your camera regardless of what others say. Take a photograph and feel good about it regardless of the box.
But there is no argument about the fact that Canon surely would have performed their own technical tests to bundle out a camera that is targeted to a particular audience and price point. And this after measuring what the camera should be able to do from a primarily technical perspective. How else would they fundamentally differentiate their models. Problem is it seems they obviously did it without knowledge of the Nikons.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Re: DxO results out for 5D3

The absolute numbers don't even matter, it's just relative comparisons.
Everyone would have a different criteria for what DR amount is usable. They can agree on relative comparisons though.

DxO randomly chose 8MP file, it doesn't matter what you chose or what the absolute #'s are when comparing things, who cares, it's all good.

If you don't normalize then you could get a 22MP 5D3 looking worse than 4MP earlier generation camera perhaps. They just do the most basic normalization of all.

Strictly speaking one might better apply NR until the higher MP camera gets reduced to detail capture by the lower MP camera and this would give a bit more boost to higher MP cameras than the simple method.

But it's tricky since NR always changes over time and it's hard to say when detail from one is reduced to the other, it may not be uniform, etc. it would be so tricky to decide what to use for normalization in that regard so the simple method is used and is good enough if you keep in mind that say a 22MP cam vs an 8MP cam might do a bit better in real world processing than implied.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Re: DxO results out for 5D3

Dude, if a personal friend of yours took a personality test and did poorly because science says so based on various scientific values is their science more important than your experience with that person?
I'd wager your relationship and experience with them would trump their findings and you would say they are wack.
My camera and lens system is a relationship. Numbers don't give it value.

Personality is astonishingly complex, far too complex for any formula or trivial personality test to remotely fully encompass. So I'd go with my personal experience with them.

Basic sensor data is orders of magnitude beyond orders of magnitude more simplistic and basic. It's very different. That said some tests, like DxO, don't even mention things like whether noise looks nice or ugly, etc. so some other things warrant looking into as well.

And once more of course AF and fps and all that matter. I've said a ton of times it's totally awesome that they put in the 1DX AF and bumped it to 6fps and so on. That makes it much easier to use than a 5D2 for some stuff.

And the SNR is tied for the best in any consumer camera, ever (although at the expensive of a bit extra chroma noise compared to the others tied with).

 

[sarangiman]

Re: DxO results out for 5D3

It's actually all of the other curves that are fishy . Ideally it WOULD be a straight line plot. It's read noise issues at certain stages of the read out that cause them to curve flat towards ISO100 for the non-exmor cameras.

Right, that's kind of what I meant... I stated it poorly. Now, don't you find it strange that the D4 also flattens at ISO 100? We're not supposed to believe it has worse read-out noise than the D800, are we?

As for the method for calculating DR from white/black frames... I just don't see that as an accurate method, b/c of complications potentially arising from the signal processing pipeline.

I also don't understand why DXO doesn't explicitly publish their testing protocol. It's vague, while sometimes trying not to be by proffering some equations. It's annoying, almost disingenuous... they should just list the entire protocol for peer review, like all research papers... they're not making money off their testing, are they?

For the basic dynamic range I think they just take their top blown out wedge (same as the white frame we talk about) and for then take a bottom wedge that contains the blackpoint (same as out lens cap on black frame) and then do the same thing we did

Yeah, I'm almost inclined to believe you, given that now my calculations this way from black/white frames of 5D2, 5D3, & D7000 suspiciously match DXO's numbers to almost a decimal point! Of course, if all these cameras religiously map white to that highest value on the white file & black to the mean of the pixels in the black file, with no other fancy signal processing in between, then maybe that's just a testament to DXOs testing protocol (if they actually base DR by imaging patches of a range of brightnesses).

FYI I started doing some DR tests on my 5DIII using a Stouffer Transmission Wedge (T4110). I'm working on my methodology here, but the following method yielded 11.2 stops for DR:

At ISO 100:
[list type=decimal]
[*]Find longest shutter speed at f/11 that is just short of no longer capturing any detail between Step 1 (not enumerated on wedge) & Step 2 (shooting RAW, using any/all sorts of HR & exposure reduction to pull detail out of highlights... i.e. +1/3stop from this shutter speed & Step 2 now has same signal as blown-out white file)
[*]Find shortest shutter speed where signal at Step 2 is ~12 (so, SNR of 2 if 5.9 is read noise, according to dark frame)
[*]DR = log2(longest shutter speed/shortest shutter speed) = 11.2
[/list]

Guess I could also do the above for SNR of 1 as the acceptable lower end.

But, 11.2 (lowest acceptable SNR = 2)... pretty close to 11.7 (lowest acceptable SNR = 1).

Will try w/ friend's D7000 this weekend... then D800 soon (hopefully).

 

[Fishnose]

- The popup flash on the D800 is NOT meant for use as a flash per se. It is meant to be used as master for controlling other flashes in the CLS (Creative Lighting System), which beats the hell out of Pocket Wizard and other primitive 'on or off' systems.

I guess this is a comment made by someone who has no significant expence with PW/Odins/Pixel King.

But hey it is a good thow away remark often repeated by like minded people

No, it's not a throwaway remark.
CLS is intelligent, controls flash settings in real time.
Pocket Wizard for instance only tells the flashes to flash. Everything else must be set manually. Other systems may well be smarter, sure.

Anyway, my point was, the built-in flash on the D800 has a specific function. I'm not interested in discussing the different systems, they all have advantages and disadvantages.

 

[briansquibb]

- The popup flash on the D800 is NOT meant for use as a flash per se. It is meant to be used as master for controlling other flashes in the CLS (Creative Lighting System), which beats the hell out of Pocket Wizard and other primitive 'on or off' systems.

I guess this is a comment made by someone who has no significant expence with PW/Odins/Pixel King.

But hey it is a good thow away remark often repeated by like minded people

No, it's not a throwaway remark.
CLS is intelligent, controls flash settings in real time.
Pocket Wizard for instance only tells the flashes to flash. Everything else must be set manually. Other systems may well be smarter, sure.

Anyway, my point was, the built-in flash on the D800 has a specific function. I'm not interested in discussing the different systems, they all have advantages and disadvantages.

PW/Odins etc send full eTTL therefore nothing is set up manually - so I guess you need to read up a bit more

 

[Astro]

Re: DxO results out for 5D3

DXO is testing sensors for when they reaches a certain noise threshold.
it says nothing about how good images can look under the best circumstances.

so imo it´s no wonder that medium format cameras don´t have outstanding scores.

 

[sarangiman]

Re: DxO results out for 5D3

At ISO 100:
Find longest shutter speed at f/11 that is just short of no longer capturing any detail between Step 1 (not enumerated on wedge) & Step 2 (shooting RAW, using any/all sorts of HR & exposure reduction to pull detail out of highlights... i.e. +1/3stop from this shutter speed & Step 2 now has same signal as blown-out white file)
Find shortest shutter speed where signal at Step 2 is ~12 (so, SNR of 2 if 5.9 is read noise, according to dark frame)
DR = log2(longest shutter speed/shortest shutter speed) = 11.2

I should probably mention that I used IRIS for my analysis of the RAW data, & when I went looking for the file where Step 2 registered as 12ADU, I did compute the average across the patch... i.e. I looked for the exposure that had a mean of 12ADU for Step 2.

 

[Fishnose]

PW/Odins etc send full eTTL therefore nothing is set up manually - so I guess you need to read up a bit more

Well, I never once mentioned Odin or Pixel King. You did.
The most common Pocket Wizards by far (the Plus and Multimax series) are not TTL.

Amd I still say, I was talking about the reason for the built-in flash on the D800.
And I still say that the CLS system is far better than dumb 'on or off' systems.

There are other systems, sure. What does that have to do with my original point?

 

[seekn]

Re: DxO results out for 5D3

They do count and I've said so many times. The AF and fps and all that, awesome improvements. I've even said this in this thread earlier. I said it was great that is tied for best SNR ever.

But if you praise something then the usual suspects don't respond and the thread quickly falls off the charts but if you dare mention anything not the best about Canon they attack you and then the threads go on forever as you explain and defend everything so it seems like you only talk about one thing when you actually talk about all sorts of things.

Also, it takes a LOT to get Canons attention and some inside hints are that they haven't really cared to pay attention to low ISO DR much internally.

Well said, can't argue with anything that you said there. I have been reading for a couple months now all the debate raging abck and forth about DR on the mark iii - sadly you were correct, although I was hoping you would be wrong, as I remember you saying you wish you were as well. It is really a shame that Canon did not invest more R&D into improving their sensor quality as far as low ISOs go. Although honestly 90% of my photos will probably never be seriously affected by these issues, its still nice to know that your hard earned money is being well spent.
I had a huge grudge against you honestly these last couple months because I was so looking forward to having my mark iii and I felt like you were burstling my happy bubble - but I can see what I think you are trying to do and despite my happy bubble being not so big I want to commend you for trying to spur development.
OK anyway I have my mark iii sitting 6 inches in front of my keyboard so Im going to stop typing now lol. Anyway kudos again for being right and I commend you for being a great source of knowledge and debate on these forums (justdont stoop to their level)

 

[briansquibb]

PW/Odins etc send full eTTL therefore nothing is set up manually - so I guess you need to read up a bit more

Well, I never once mentioned Odin or Pixel King. You did.
The most common Pocket Wizards by far (the Plus and Multimax series) are not TTL.

Amd I still say, I was talking about the reason for the built-in flash on the D800.
And I still say that the CLS system is far better than dumb 'on or off' systems.

There are other systems, sure. What does that have to do with my original point?

I guess this fooled me

Pocket Wizard and other primitive 'on or off' systems.

I think you will find that Canon flash lights are controlled by eTTL controllers (mini and flex) rather than the studio light types.

These PW and others are a straight radio replacement for the Canon IR systems - which are the direct equivalent of Nikon CLS. If you slag off PW you might at least get the context right or qualify which PW you are slagging off.

I guess you didn't think to compare CLS with the Canon equivalent which would have been easier for us to understand

 

[dichiaras]

Re: DX0 Mark Canon 5D MkIII Review

Someone on here said it best, "When all this hype has died down in two years 90% of pros will be shooting with the 5D3 over the D800, just like the 5D2 over and D700 and all Canon over Nikons"

Looking at the Amazon best seller list I predict you'll be very likely wrong:

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Electronics-Digital-SLR-Cameras/zgbs/electronics/3017941/ref=pd_ts_zgc_e_3017941_morl?pf_rd_p=1270018122&pf_rd_s=right-5&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_i=507846&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0JABKZ0CEFB8XTBV2D7S

Nikon occupied the first three spots for the past month and a half (since the D800 come out), and now with the D3200 also the 4th is gone.

Because most of the pros get their stuff off of Amazon, right?

Well, I see your point, and I agree of course. But at the same time the fact that 5DIII has been always so far behind the D800, gives a good indication of the weakness of the sales of the former relative to the latter camera.

 

[alipaulphotography]

The DXOMark scores are normalized to allow an appropriate comparison of sensors. In essence, their concept is to treat the camera as a black box and compare performance when printing to a fixed image size. That seems reasonable. The 5DMkIII has better pixel level noise performance than the D800, but when printed to the same size, the overall noise of the Nikon sensor is lower. The 5DMkIII produces cleaner jpegs than the D800 and it has a higher frame rate. The 5DMkIII is a phenomenal camera. Unfortunately, the pre-release hype seems to have deviated a bit farther from reality than usual. Anybody who is thinking of changing brands, either way, because of the differences between the D800 and the 5DMkIII must not have much of an investment in glass. When it comes to capturing a great image, does the difference matter? I say Hooray for Nikon. I applaud their technical achievement. Assume the that D800 sensor really is better...So what. I prefer the system I have and I am certainly not going to replace all of my glass. Given that the 5DMkIII is an excellent camera, what does the DXOMark score really mean to me? ... It means that Canon is going to pull out all of the stops and give us something really jaw dropping for the next iteration. When you are number one its easy to become a bit complacent. As such, the D800 may well be the best news long time Canon shooters have had for a long time. If specs matter all that much in your final image, by all means go out and whine, gnash your teeth and cry foul. If on the other hand, you want to take great pictures, then the MkIII is a significant improvement over the MkII and its a great camera. I don't actually put camera specs on my images...do you?

Could not agree more. Very very well said and exactly what I have been thinking whilst reading these threads. I can't be bothered reading the canon rumors forum anymore. 90% specifications comparisons and 10% actual photography.
I shoot with the 5D original and I'm a working wedding photographer. Clients could not be more pleased.

 

[Fishnose]

Is it just me, or didn't this happen once before? When DXO published a test, and then changed it?

When did they change it?
My capture showing the results (first post in this thread) was grabbed off their site literally seconds after it went up.
The results are still the same now. So what did they change exactly?

 

[psolberg]

Re: DX0 Mark Canon 5D MkIII Review

Someone on here said it best, "When all this hype has died down in two years 90% of pros will be shooting with the 5D3 over the D800, just like the 5D2 over and D700 and all Canon over Nikons"

Looking at the Amazon best seller list I predict you'll be very likely wrong:

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Electronics-Digital-SLR-Cameras/zgbs/electronics/3017941/ref=pd_ts_zgc_e_3017941_morl?pf_rd_p=1270018122&pf_rd_s=right-5&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_i=507846&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0JABKZ0CEFB8XTBV2D7S

Nikon occupied the first three spots for the past month and a half (since the D800 come out), and now with the D3200 also the 4th is gone.

Because most of the pros get their stuff off of Amazon, right?

Well, I see your point, and I agree of course. But at the same time the fact that 5DIII has been always so far behind the D800, gives a good indication of the weakness of the sales of the former relative to the latter camera.

I think many will be surprised just how many more D800's are going to sell this year compared to the D700's. The 5DmkIII recall will not help matters and the 5DmkIII best competitor is the last generation due to it's ridiculous price. Take the 5DmkII. It is now a lot more affordable and just as good. Need speed? then how about a D700 which shoots up to 8 FPS leaving even the 5DmkIII in the dust and can be had brand new for a mere 2200 bucks or used for around 1800.

The world has changed and the 5DmkIII has a LOT of compeitition which will inevitably mean it won't be able to be the wonder camera everybody had like its prior incarnation was. Amazon sales numbers are a good sample of what the market is demanding most and so far, it isn't 5DmkIII's and there is no indication they will unless canon drastically lowers the price.

 

[Orion]

Given that the 5DMkIII is an excellent camera, what does the DXOMark score really mean to me? ... It means that Canon is going to pull out all of the stops and give us something really jaw dropping for the next iteration. . . . .

Although I don't really care about all this, you have to realize that this time WAS the "next iteration." They succeeded! It's just that the price, and the DxO score now, leaves some scratching their heads.. . . Do people honestly think that Canon did not think that Nikon would come out with a monster camera?? and casue Canon to think, "ah no worries . . . we will do the jaw dropping thing for a future release. btw, DxO????"

 

[Fishnose]

Although I don't really care about all this, you have to realize that this time WAS the "next iteration." They succeeded! It's just that the price, and the DxO score now, leaves some scratching their heads.. . . Do people honestly think that Canon did not think that Nikon would come out with a monster camera?? and casue Canon to think, "ah no worries . . . we will do the jaw dropping thing for a future release. btw, DxO????"

By definition this was the previous iteration. The next iteration will be the next generation of cameras and sensors. An then a new iteration after that and so on and so on. Just like cell phones, computers, TVs etc etc.

 

[Fishnose]

...I say Hooray for Nikon. I applaud their technical achievement. Assume the that D800 sensor really is better...So what. I prefer the system I have and I am certainly not going to replace all of my glass. Given that the 5DMkIII is an excellent camera, what does the DXOMark score really mean to me? ... It means that Canon is going to pull out all of the stops and give us something really jaw dropping for the next iteration. When you are number one its easy to become a bit complacent. As such, the D800 may well be the best news long time Canon shooters have had for a long time.

Exactly.

We the camera buyers should be very pleased that we have at least 2 giants fighting for market share. It means they stay on their toes and push R&D (and marketing) all the harder to try and trump each other next time.

Both are of course already working on coming generations - this is a long-term business.

 

[JR]

...I say Hooray for Nikon. I applaud their technical achievement. Assume the that D800 sensor really is better...So what. I prefer the system I have and I am certainly not going to replace all of my glass. Given that the 5DMkIII is an excellent camera, what does the DXOMark score really mean to me? ... It means that Canon is going to pull out all of the stops and give us something really jaw dropping for the next iteration. When you are number one its easy to become a bit complacent. As such, the D800 may well be the best news long time Canon shooters have had for a long time.

Exactly.

We the camera buyers should be very pleased that we have at least 2 giants fighting for market share. It means they stay on their toes and push R&D (and marketing) all the harder to try and trump each other next time.

Both are of course already working on coming generations - this is a long-term business.

+1