DxOMark scores for 5DMkIII out - total score 81, 5DMkII had 79

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Re: DxO results out for 5D3

the first was the D7000 which is already a couple years old, and just as good (from a hardware capabilities level...and at that, possibly even a touch better still than the D800.) There are several other cameras from Nikon that allow well over an additional stop of DR beyond what Canon is capable of.

I forget about crop cameras. Yes - the D7000 was the first to allow particularly large amounts of shadow pushing.

I don't believe before that there was much though.

I think the D90 or D70 or something did too, I forget.
The D3x did.
Some of the others using Sony exmor sensors.

The others were not as dramatically better but some of the others had less banding so you could play with the shadows somewhat more than canons such as the 50D/5D2.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Re: DxO results out for 5D3

People forget that the D800 also does 5fps at 25MP, still a touch slow, but, with grip and extra expense, it can match the 6fps of the 5D3. If it didn't have that option then I'd say you could easily call the 5D3 more all around, but since the D800 does have the 6fps option (even if with 16MP DX restriction) it's a tougher call. A bit worse for action since it is more restricted and yet it also have better general low iso image quality by all criteria and more reach for wildlife and some sports.

The unfortunate thing is that any high MP coming from Canon soon most likely WON'T have any 5 and 6fps options since for whatever reason Canon refuses to do crop modes for speed so it will sadly likely be far more specialized than the D800, plus it likely won't match D800 so other than perhaps a few extra MP it won't even do it's specialty better.

You said: "So, the question for Canon is ... do we spend money and time on something people *might* need or do we spend money and time on something people *do* need? It's a really hard question to answer"

Not really. Since the 5D3 is supposed to be a pro camera and apparently replaces all high-end models for everything other than pure sports/action (1Dx), it has to do everything exactly right other than high fps and extreme ISO.
If not, what Canon model do the pros go to?

Until this latest generation photographers haven't even been able to push shadows that much. It's a relatively new feature. So pros can't have been doing this until the d800 / d4 came along.

No camera does everything. As a wedding photographer pro, which Nikon do you go with? D800 - too big files with no small RAW option. D4 - too expensive. D700 - too old. D3S - too low res. Don't believe that Nikon has everything perfect...

If the 5d3 has one serious Achilles Heel - low ISO DR - then it's probably the best overall camera out there.

Are you familiar with bell curves? Here's how I personally see the situation. More people are in the middle than at either end. This shows what people NEED rather than what they WANT btw. Nikon services the left side (d3s) and right side (d800) much better than Canon, but IMO Canon services the middle better:

(this doesn't show anything about low ISO DR, but the same situation applies).

I also think you'll find that many, many pros will be quite happy with what the 5d3 gives. In fact loads of still using 1ds2's in studio and 5dc's for weddings. A lot of what people seem to think pros need is not reality. (I don't know about your needs or your status).

BTW I'm not taking away what Nikon have achieved. I'm just saying that the 5d3 feature set was decided upon and, if it had better low ISO DR, something else would almost certainly have to be missing. Manufacturers make their decisions... sometimes they get it right... sometimes wrong... time will tell on the 5d3.

interesting but the problem is that 4 fps is sufficient for MOST people just as with the 5DmkII so that would put the D800 in the middle. Also the ISO levels of hte mk2 and D800 are sufficient for MOST people so that would also put the D800 in the middle. The same applies to the 5DmkII. So the real competition for the mk3 is the prior one more than anything AND the D800. Second your graph doesn't have price which would place the mk2 and D800 closer to the center than the mk3.

This is the fundamental problem with the 5D3. Price makes it go to the edges of the graph, high ISO and fast FPS make it more specialized pushing it further away from the center of the bell curve. The D800 is more of a traditional middle of the road camera with the exception of the high MP. This would push it towards the edge but given it isn't any more expensive, the resolution is essentially a non issue. The lower price helps it a lot bringing it towards the center.

In conclusion, you simply can't make a graph like that and infer anything because your basis is that the 5Dmk3 is more to the center when in fact the only center aspect of it is resolution. In every other aspect the D800 is closer to the center.

Then again your graph is too much of a generalization so we better stick to a much simpler answer: Shoot studio and landscape or portraits stick to the mk2 or D800. If you shoot action on a budget stick to the 8fps D700 or 6fps 5DIII. If you shoot action for a living go D4 or 1DX. It is a simple as using the right tool for the job. Neither is truly "general purpose" although most people will gravitate towards the cheaper camera which make the D700 and 5DmkII equal winners.

 

[V8Beast]

Re: DxO results out for 5D3

I think the people who care most are the gearheads on here and dpreview etc... I think a lot of working pros just don't care - not one bit. I've heard very VERY few of my photographer friends (and I have a lot) talk about poor quality shadows.

+1 million There's nothing wrong with being a gearhead, but most working pros I know have never even heard of DxO, or are aware of the current state of sensor technology between Canon and Nikon. They are busy shooting, editing, and shooting some more, and grinding clients to pay their delinquent invoices Their gear works well for them, they're happy with it, and so they have no reason to see if the grass is greener on the other side.

When I mention to them how much Nikon has caught up with, and in some respects surpassed Canon in sensor tech, they look at me like I'm crazy. Nikon's incredibly inept product line at the dawn of the digital revolution is still fresh in their minds. I suppose ignorance is bliss to a certain degree, but if you're happy with your gear, and it pays the bills, why look elsewhere?

 

[V8Beast]

Re: DxO results out for 5D3

I know quite a few photographers, more online than in real life, but perhaps I just run with a more technical group who does seem to care in general about their IQ and how well the hardware caters to IQ.

That's explains it right there. The internet has a way of grossly distorting niche and micro niche markets. For every pro photog I "know" on the internet, I know 10 real life pro photog colleagues and competitors I rub shoulders with on a daily basis. Sites like Canon Rumors naturally attracts a far more tech savvy demographic. It doesn't mean they're better photographers, but they are far more tech savvy. The only reason I'm aware of these of DxO testing and some of the more technical aspects of camera design is because I stumbled upon Canon Rumors, and the only reason I stumbled upon Canon Rumors is because I was researching the latest 5DIII rumors online, since I was beyond frustrated with my 5D's AF system.

As artsy-fartsy types, many, many photographers that are highly talented and produce incredible work aren't remotely tech savvy. I don't say that as a criticism or a compliment, but that's just how they're wired. A buddy of mine, who produces some incredible work, has been using his 1DsII professionally for 7 years, and the grips are worn smooth at this point. I mentioned what a workhorse it's been for him, and as he said, "yeah, I like the IQ and handling a lot. I think it has 11 megapixels." Now, this is an extreme example, and I was shocked that he didn't even know how many megapixels his camera has, but it does put into perspective how tech specs aren't nearly as important to some photographers than to others. It's not too different from an art director that swears that he can't do his job on anything other than a Mac, even though Macs and PCs often share the same processors, video cards, and software these days.

Don't get me wrong. I don't see any advantage of being this clueless, and it can hurt you if there are better tools for the job that you are simply unaware of. That said, this does reinforce how good all pro and semi-pro DSLRs are these days, and underscores how performance metrics that are HUGE issues online aren't nearly as big of an issue amongst most working pros.

I blame this on how the internet can grossly distorts niche markets. For instance, only a very small percentage of the general public modify and drag race their cars, and a miniscule percentage of that demographic builds 2,500 horsepower drag cars. However, if I hop on the right online forum, it makes it seem as if freaks like us are a dime a dozen

 

[NormanBates]

ok, so some people think "good enough" will be good enough...

I think it won't: it's not a matter of "I can't live with this IQ" but instead "the D800 is much better, and cheaper too, the 5D3 should be $500 cheaper, not $500 more expensive!!"

and I expect to see something like the following:
* July 2008: Nikon launches D700 at $3000
* Sep 2008: Canon launches much better 5D2 at $2700
* Dec 2008: D700 has fallen to $2320, 5D2 still $2700
http://camelcamelcamel.com/Nikon-12-1MP-FX-Format-Digital-3-0-Inch/product/B001BTCSI6
http://camelcamelcamel.com/Canon-21-1MP-Frame-Digital-Camera/product/B001G5ZTLS

 

[DarkKnightNine]

I'm loyal to neither brand, whatever gets the job done is the best camera at the moment. That being said I'm here on CanonRumors because I own a lot of Canon gear, but If at any point I felt like Nikon offered me severe advantages over Canon, I would sell everything I own and switch over. The fact of the matter is these two companies will always leapfrog each other. Wannabe photogs sit around worrying about test scores, while real photogs are out creating beautiful images with whatever they can get their hands on. One of my mentors still shoots with a Canon 30D and Sigma lenses. He has shot some of the most iconic pictures in the world e.g. Miles Davis actually smiling, Stevie Wonder with his glasses off, James Brown just before he died and on and on.
My point being, the 5D Mark III is an excellent camera regardless of those silly tests and probably more than most wannabe photogs need, but they seem to want more and more from the camera to compensate for lack of visual imagination. Personally I was out shooting with my 5D Mark III while most people were still sitting around in forums reading about it. I had to because I make my living from shooting. If I don't shoot, I don't eat. I have found nothing that made me think "darn it I wish I had switched to Nikon".
Bottom line, test be damned, my 5D Mark III does exactly what it supposed to do and when the 1DX is released I'll get two of those too. I'll let other people worry about test scores, my rent is due.

 

[KeithR]

What DarkKnightNine said...

 

[BillyBean]

ok, so some people think "good enough" will be good enough... I think it won't ...

Wow - I sense your deep pain.

Must be really tough to live in your world of constant disappointment.

• No possibility of marriage (always a better girl/boy around the next corner);
• No house purchase, so live on a park bench hoping for the ideal house to become affordable;
• No car, because there is always a better one...

Life is really hard that way.

My life, it's about compromise. I get the best I can, I enjoy it. It's working out pretty well so far.

Go get an EOS3 - you can have great autofocus and metering, upgradable high megapixel sensors (film) and all for $150... Seriously - I love mine.

 

[NormanBates]

why would you write about my personal life? I know you were trying to be funny - I didn't find it funny

anyway, 6 months from now we'll know if "good enough" was good enough for most people or just for some



edit (let me try and fail to be funny now): you don't mess up with someone that calls himself NormanBates...

 

[Fishnose]

Wow - I sense your deep pain.

Must be really tough to live in your world of constant disappointment.

• No possibility of marriage (always a better girl/boy around the next corner);
• No house purchase, so live on a park bench hoping for the ideal house to become affordable;
• No car, because there is always a better one...

Life is really hard that way.

My life, it's about compromise. I get the best I can, I enjoy it. It's working out pretty well so far.

Go get an EOS3 - you can have great autofocus and metering, upgradable high megapixel sensors (film) and all for $150... Seriously - I love mine.

Damn, you're such a jerk.

 

[briansquibb]

Wow - I sense your deep pain.

Must be really tough to live in your world of constant disappointment.

• No possibility of marriage (always a better girl/boy around the next corner);
• No house purchase, so live on a park bench hoping for the ideal house to become affordable;
• No car, because there is always a better one...

Life is really hard that way.

My life, it's about compromise. I get the best I can, I enjoy it. It's working out pretty well so far.

Go get an EOS3 - you can have great autofocus and metering, upgradable high megapixel sensors (film) and all for $150... Seriously - I love mine.

Damn, you're such a jerk.

Name calling is not an appropriate response

 

[NormanBates]

I'm happy with
6 months from now we'll know if "good enough" was good enough for most people or just for some
please forget about his comment and leave it there

 

[K-amps]

I think Norman is referring to the apparent value proposition of the 2 cams. Canon seems to be an inferior Value, looking at it's higher price. The same feature set at $2700 would have been a lot more palatable... and then they could have released the 40mp 3D at $3800 and people would have gone for it, this would have outflanked the D800 on both ends.

Right now, they are just skimming the pond, Milking it for what they can. This is not 2005, when you have a great value in a FF body when all other FF's are selling at more than 2x the price nor is it an update that adds video and opens up a whole new world. This is fixing firmware, adding the 1dx AF and slapping another $1000 to the price of the predecessor... all this while the competition has moved ahead.

I own the 5diii and think it is a great Cam, just not a great value when you look at the competition. I wonder if Nikkor or Sony lenses dip in price... what effect that would have on Canon Body sales. The shadow noise I saw in Fed Miranda's test shots of the 5d3 vs D800 was a shocker for me... it was like a DSLR was pitted against a cheap PS. The color blotches were horrible. Good thing there's a lot more to shoot than shadows only.

There is inertia in Public opinion and Nikon suffered on that end in the mid 2000's, now it is gaining momentum, the tides are shifting and canon is sitting on their Backs researching $20k Cinema cams... Good for them, bad for us stills guys.

 

[Fishnose]

Canon seems to be an inferior Value, looking at it's higher price. The same feature set at $2700 would have been a lot more palatable... and then they could have released the 40mp 3D at $3800 and people would have gone for it, this would have outflanked the D800 on both ends.

Fair enough - value for money is a relevant issue.
But consider this: Canon has a massive customer base already. People who've invested in lots of glass etc etc. They know that photographers at this level (as opposed to entry-level DSLRs) simply go and buy the next generation of Canon when they feel they need to. They're not likely to swap allegiances because of a few hundred dollars.

Nikon OTOH has to aim for increasing their market share, being a little way behind. They fumbled the ball a couple of times early on in the DSLR race and have suffered ever since.

So - how do they convince newcomers to the higher end to buy Nikon?
By having something really AMAZING (36MP) and, amazingly, cheaper than the equivalent Canon! Now that is some smart marketing.
It costs them, as their margins will be a little leaner than Canon's, but they're going for touhdown, there's no other way to play this game.

So in fact the two big guns have made totally logical decisions in terms of both technology and pricing. Based on their present market situations.

And quite simply, these are both (5D3 and D800) absolutely amazing cameras.

 

[Razor2012]

Canon seems to be an inferior Value, looking at it's higher price. The same feature set at $2700 would have been a lot more palatable... and then they could have released the 40mp 3D at $3800 and people would have gone for it, this would have outflanked the D800 on both ends.

Fair enough - value for money is a relevant issue.
But consider this: Canon has a massive customer base already. People who've invested in lots of glass etc etc. They know that photographers at this level (as opposed to entry-level DSLRs) simply go and buy the next generation of Canon when they feel they need to. They're not likely to swap allegiances because of a few hundred dollars.

Nikon OTOH has to aim for increasing their market share, being a little way behind. They fumbled the ball a couple of times early on in the DSLR race and have suffered ever since.

So - how do they convince newcomers to the higher end to buy Nikon?
By having something really AMAZING (36MP) and, amazingly, cheaper than the equivalent Canon! Now that is some smart marketing.
It costs them, as their margins will be a little leaner than Canon's, but they're going for touhdown, there's no other way to play this game.

So in fact the two big guns have made totally logical decisions in terms of both technology and pricing. Based on their present market situations.

And quite simply, these are both (5D3 and D800) absolutely amazing cameras.

Exactly, and it will just go back and forth. IMO there are basically two camps, and they are fairly loyal followers. So you probably won't see too many 'jump the boat' because of one camera, because the next release will be that much better again. There certainly will be the ones that are on the fence deciding which way to go, but the majority have chosen.

 

[tron]

The shadow noise I saw in Fed Miranda's test shots of the 5d3 vs D800 was a shocker for me... it was like a DSLR was pitted against a cheap PS. The color blotches were horrible. Good thing there's a lot more to shoot than shadows only.

This is the only comparison that shocked me too

 

[ippikiokami]

why would you write about my personal life? I know you were trying to be funny - I didn't find it funny

anyway, 6 months from now we'll know if "good enough" was good enough for most people or just for some



edit (let me try and fail to be funny now): you don't mess up with someone that calls himself NormanBates...

Are you kidding? it's been long enough in the field a lot of people are using them professionally already. Personally, I've shot 3 weddings, 2 big events for pure testing purposes before the weddings and shooting a photoshoot this weekend for a fashion client. Being able to shoot at the ISO's I shot were a God send in both what and how I could capture. I also sipped through batteries as some situations I just didn't need my flash where I did before and others I used much less flash.

Was I nervous on relying on high iso? Yeah.. but I tested it enough at music / film fest and coffee shop to know it's limits and stuck with it. Constantly during the wedding's I was just blown away at how high of ISO I could shoot. If I can get through all those situations I don't know that many people that would have more extreme ones that it wouldn't be "Good Enough"

Again as I've said in other post this is coming from a guy that was just an availability of the d800 away from switching over.

 

[babarasghar]

the day earth stood still
the apocalypse
the day 5d3 was launched
I remember earth didn't stand still when 5d2 came out ... I dnt think so earth stood still when world Digital replaced Film
but I'm lucky to witness how a 500$ higher priced Canon has left its mark on history ... it seems I'm witnessing the great waterloo battle ... or Normandy landing or fall of Berlin n Berlin wall ...
even Hitler couldn't impress any spamer that much ...
I wonder why some one never asked on forum ... my eyes r closing should I sleep ... I'm having pain in stomach should I eat ... I'm smelling like a dog should I take bath ... I want to spend rest of my life with that girl ... am I in love ? cause most normal n emotionally balanced people know how to act in certain situations ... n if they ask then either they are not normal or they dnt have such needs ... so if still someone is splitting hairs between d800 n 5d3 he needs none of them ...
i wonder how people survived till 36mp d800 was not released ... how world functioned with 5d2 crappy AF system ...

n I'm sure Maya predicted end of. world in 2012 cause NIKON will make a cheaper d800 n Canon 5d3 would cost 500$ more ... duh!!!

 

[Fishnose]

babarasghar, I think you need to lower the dose of those apparently very strong tablets you're taking 8)

 

[marekjoz]

No more replies here? Come on, guys.
Did you know that DxOMark scores 5dmk3 total score 81 and 5d2 had 79?
lol