EOS-1D X Mark II Sensor Talk [CR2]

[LetTheRightLensIn]

More MP with no frame rate reduction, similar ergonomics. It ain't broke, they shouldn't fix it (contrasting with a prior rumor that mentioned significant ergonomic changes).

That's a lot of good news and possibly all good news, but not for sure all good news. The rumor also made a huge deal about sticking with only made by Canon parts, including the sensor, which isn't necessarily good news (unless it does use the dual-read thing and it works out as well as possible, still a big if).
When they bragged on the 5Ds sticking with Canon sensors it turned out to be rather less than ideal news.

 

[Deleted member 91053]

Well my hopes for the new model are much simpler!
I would like up to 1 stop better ISO, and maybe re-position the AF-On button in portrait mode.

I know I am VERY demanding!

 

[bdunbar79]

Well my hopes for the new model are much simpler!
I would like up to 1 stop better ISO, and maybe re-position the AF-On button in portrait mode.

I know I am VERY demanding!

Do you mean at high or low ISO? At high ISO there is no way you're going to get 10.7 stops of DR at 6400, vs. 9.7 stops in the 1Dx. It is reasonable, however, to expect something like 12 or 12.5 stops at ISO 100.

 

[9VIII]

Edit: conversation out of context.

 

[polarhannes]

I'm happy with minor improvements - a little more MP, a little more DR, a little better ISO performance - but what I really would like to see is a quieter mirror slap sound, like the 5D Mk III's silent mode or even the one from the 5Ds which is even a little bit quieter.
I know this does not go well with the high FPS of the 1DX and its possible successor due to the mechanics inside... But this is the single point I honestly do not like about the 1DX.

 

[bdunbar79]

Well my hopes for the new model are much simpler!
I would like up to 1 stop better ISO, and maybe re-position the AF-On button in portrait mode.

I know I am VERY demanding!

Do you mean at high or low ISO? At high ISO there is no way you're going to get 10.7 stops of DR at 6400, vs. 9.7 stops in the 1Dx. It is reasonable, however, to expect something like 12 or 12.5 stops at ISO 100.

Pretty sure he was talking about low light noise performance, you know, that thing that normal people care about.

You can NEVER be too sure here. Most people on here actually only care about ISO 100 noise, shooting lens captography. I had to make sure, that's all.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Well my hopes for the new model are much simpler!
I would like up to 1 stop better ISO, and maybe re-position the AF-On button in portrait mode.

I know I am VERY demanding!

Do you mean at high or low ISO? At high ISO there is no way you're going to get 10.7 stops of DR at 6400, vs. 9.7 stops in the 1Dx. It is reasonable, however, to expect something like 12 or 12.5 stops at ISO 100.

Pretty sure he was talking about low light noise performance, you know, that thing that normal people care about.

Normal people can care about high ISO SNR and/or low ISO DR and/or high ISO DR.

There have been high ISO DR improvements in recent years. I forget, but I think the 6D does more than 1/2 stop better high ISO DR than the 5D2, maybe it's even more like 2/3rds? It can be nice to pick up more DR higher up the range since, so long as you are OK with some general noise, it makes it more possible to pull off shots that start looking compromised because the tonal range seems to small or the highlights clipped if you make the shadows not too a mess. Anyway, no brand seems to have their best with much of a lead over the best of any other brand for high ISO DR at the moment and the same goes for high ISO SNR. I guess the A7S pulls ahead a little on those respects, but it also has a low MP count and in some ways, a high MP count can sometimes make things look better to the eye even if the numbers report a bit worse, depending.

 

[Loswr]

Well my hopes for the new model are much simpler!
I would like up to 1 stop better ISO, and maybe re-position the AF-On button in portrait mode.

I know I am VERY demanding!

Do you mean at high or low ISO? At high ISO there is no way you're going to get 10.7 stops of DR at 6400, vs. 9.7 stops in the 1Dx. It is reasonable, however, to expect something like 12 or 12.5 stops at ISO 100.

Pretty sure he was talking about low light noise performance, you know, that thing that normal people care about.

You can NEVER be too sure here. Most people on here actually only care about ISO 100 noise, shooting lens captography. I had to make sure, that's all.

Are you SURE?

You unlock this door with the key of imagination. Beyond it is another dimension - a dimension of no sound, a dimension of static sight, a dimension of measurebation. You're moving into a land of both extremely pushed shadows and little substance, of qpcard thingys and barbecue ideas. You've just crossed over into the Exmor Zone.
—Rod Serling (...well, sort of )

 

[bdunbar79]

LOL!

 

[raptor3x]

Yeah no way it goes 2 stops better high ISO and even 1 stop would be really pushing it.
Cameras are simply already too good at high ISO mid-tone SNR. If some sort of sensor that captured color info perfectly with no filter array loss and itself was improved beyond that about as much as could be came out then you might get your 2 stops. But I don't see anyone releasing such a beast any time soon.

In terms of SNR, you're right that it's unlikely we'll see a 2 stop improvement in terms of luma noise, but I think there could definitely be two stops of improvement still available in terms of reduced amp glow and color fidelity.

 

[9VIII]

Edit: conversation out of context.

 

[GMCPhotographics]

So by my maths:
1Dx - 18mp @ 14fps = 252mbits / sec
1DXII - 24mp @ 14fps = 350mbits / sec

To my mind, the resolution is answer to the equation of Dual Digic 7 through put / frame rate.
I think the 25mp has little to do with marketing and intent, but purely the output of the above equation...if we have these processors and we jump for the standard 14fps...what resolution do we get...oh...25mp. Sweet...

If you want more resolution but with the same processor...then the fps will drop proportionally. Lets see....50mp...7fps.
If we drop the processor to a single Digic 7 (250mbits /sec) we get some interesting figures: 31mp @ 8fps. Sounds like a nice spec for a 5D4 anyone?

The stock DR for this sensor is likely to be the same as the current models, but I'm wondering if there will be a high DR mode (using an exposure raw blend idea) that would drastically reduce frame rate but produce crazy 15 stops of DR. It's certainly been rumored and there's little change needed in the basic design of the sensor, it's all done in the operating system and processor. It's an easy win for Canon and addresses some criticism when compared to this single metric with Sony sensors.

 

[bdunbar79]

Well my hopes for the new model are much simpler!
I would like up to 1 stop better ISO, and maybe re-position the AF-On button in portrait mode.

I know I am VERY demanding!

Do you mean at high or low ISO? At high ISO there is no way you're going to get 10.7 stops of DR at 6400, vs. 9.7 stops in the 1Dx. It is reasonable, however, to expect something like 12 or 12.5 stops at ISO 100.

It all depends on the full well capacity of the sensor.

With the current model 1Dx at ISO 6400 if there was 0 noise then you would expect around around 10.6 stops of DR.

Exactly. Which is why it won't happen unless you make the pixels bigger but of course then you take a resolution penalty, which no one wants.

 

[exquisitor]

So by my maths:
1Dx - 18mp @ 14fps = 252mbits / sec
1DXII - 24mp @ 14fps = 350mbits / sec

To my mind, the resolution is answer to the equation of Dual Digic 7 through put / frame rate.
I think the 25mp has little to do with marketing and intent, but purely the output of the above equation...if we have these processors and we jump for the standard 14fps...what resolution do we get...oh...25mp. Sweet...

If you want more resolution but with the same processor...then the fps will drop proportionally. Lets see....50mp...7fps.
If we drop the processor to a single Digic 7 (250mbits /sec) we get some interesting figures: 31mp @ 8fps. Sounds like a nice spec for a 5D4 anyone?

The stock DR for this sensor is likely to be the same as the current models, but I'm wondering if there will be a high DR mode (using an exposure raw blend idea) that would drastically reduce frame rate but produce crazy 15 stops of DR. It's certainly been rumored and there's little change needed in the basic design of the sensor, it's all done in the operating system and processor. It's an easy win for Canon and addresses some criticism when compared to this single metric with Sony sensors.

It makes sense. About 5D IV: there was a rumor about 28 mp, which would fit in your calculation nicely. The DIGIC in 5D can't be stressed so much like in 1D because of less effective cooling system, so a bit less mp or fps would be a consequence.
About high DR mode: the implementation still needs some minor hardware changes, but all off the sensor. I think Canon is on purpose avoiding the placing of A/D converter on the die with sensor. Probably because of heat dissipation? The serial analog front end from Analog Devices has a power dissipation of ~ 0.5 W, which is a considerable amount.

 

[bdunbar79]

I don't think you're getting it. There's a huge technological gap between the 5D1 and 1Dx. We're not going to see such a huge improvement here. How in the world are you going to improve the FWC that much, to gain a whole stop of DR at ISO 6400 when it is already 9.7? Maybe they will, but do you really think so? I don't.

 

[GuyF]

Screw the DR and FPS mass debate. I won't get one unless we get clear confirmation it'll start flicking lube onto the sensor after the first 2 months. That's what we want from big ticket bodies!

 

[9VIII]

Edit: conversation out of context

 

[Loswr]

Sorry, I will post nothing but serious, factual, evidence-based comments from now on...

Was that a joke? I couldn't tell. Try using a winky emoji to clarify your intent.

No, not this one: in my experience it's ineffective.

One like this:

 

[applecider]

I'd be thrilled with a real three quarter to one stop high ISO improvement and improvement at all the lower ISos as well. Any more than one stop is hoping for unicorns with golden horns. 25 MP would let me feel better about 100% cropping.

My buy decision will be based on ISO performance, but I also want open wifi so I can use an iPad screen for computer linked shooting without dongles, and really give us gps and intervalometer tho buying not dependent on that. I mean the 1dx is heavy enough without adding weights to it.

 

[Deleted member 91053]

Well my hopes for the new model are much simpler!
I would like up to 1 stop better ISO, and maybe re-position the AF-On button in portrait mode.

I know I am VERY demanding!

Do you mean at high or low ISO? At high ISO there is no way you're going to get 10.7 stops of DR at 6400, vs. 9.7 stops in the 1Dx. It is reasonable, however, to expect something like 12 or 12.5 stops at ISO 100.

I was talking about noise performance at high ISO.
DR is not an issue.