EOS 5D Mark IV - the crippled generalist

[Tugela]

Dear All,

Like so many others I feel alienated from Canon by their decisions to cripple each of the cameras in their lineup in one way or the other.

After so many years I was hoping Canon would for once address the generalists among photographers instead of offering bits and pieces here and there throughout their line-up. I wish I could buy a universal camera with multiple identical backups as in the old days of the EOS1n or EOS3. But neither the 5D IV nor the 1Dx II nor the 5DSr nor the 80D fullfill the modern needs of generalist photographers.

Speaking of myself, I photograph wildlife with super-teles, I am into fine-art landscapes and for people-reportages I do wide-angle from the hip and around corners. In all these areas I have come to absolutely depend on a flippy tilt screen that is part of the camera. It just gives you all the freedom to choose the best possible angle of view and some of my best compositions I only found because I employed the flippy-tilt as my third eye. I find it hard to accept that the old Rolleiflex of my dad can do things Canons new generalist fails at. I am not overly lazy, immobile or bashful. I do lie down on the ground a lot in public and nature. However there are many situations when you either physically cannot move your body in the right spot or when doing so is impractical or even dangerous. The 70D/80D does the job, the 5D IV won't

These are my personal must-haves:

-Fullframe
-reasonable speed and buffer
-articulating screen
-highest possible resolution, minimum 30 Megapixel
-weather sealing


list of shortcomings in the 5D IV:

-no articulating screen
-inclusion of AA-filter (Why not bringing a EOS 5D IVr to the market as alternative?)
-buffer is rather limited (why no XQD)
-only offering uncompressed MPEG makes filming 4k impractical to most of us
-no accessory EVF
-no truly silent mode

For the mean-time, I consider selling my 16-35 L IS and adding a Pentax K1 with a 15-30/2.8 to my equipment for reportage and landscape purposes. What I like about Pentax is the fact that allthough they do not have access to all the finest technologies like dual pixel af or even a fast regular autofocus, at least they try to give you everything they can in a single package. But ironically I prefer Canon's flippy-tilt concept over Pentax'.

So why can Canon not try to do their best? How arrogant must the company's managers be to think that they can keep crippling their cameras without loosing market-shares? I honestly mourn. But more so I am angry: Photographing with Canon nowadays feels like sitting in an Opera with a star cast but with those highly acclaimed singers not giving a S___ about the arts or the audience on that very evening. Bad performance. Guess I stick to my old recordings or buy a Pentax instead. Not a big voice but giving their best whenever they go on stage.

I foresee: If the 6D II will come out with a flippy-tilt screen, it will not have more than 5fps.
Deal-breaker? No. But then it will need to have 30Megapixel and no AA-filter. Then to the generalist who can sacrifice fps it could be a compromise that might be worth owning for a few years. The 5D IV definately isn't.

Canon's Earnesty Officially sucks.

The camera is not "crippled" (from the point of view of being a hybrid) as many people like to think. The basic problem is that the processors Canon have are far behind those available to their competitors in terms of sophistication and technology, and this is what limits them. If they could produce hybrids that rivaled their competitors products, they would, but the processor limitations mean that they can't.

That is why with Canon you have to get a stills camera or a video camera, but not one that does both well.

It is NOT some kind of cynical marketing plot by Canon. It is the manifestation of the limitations of their processors.

 

[Tugela]

...I'd be willing to bet that if there were more pro bodies with flip screens you'd find more of them breaking.

I'd be willing to take that bet.

If you don't flip out a flip screen, it cant break.

Pro bodies not having them because "they can break" is a weak argument.

Pro bodies don't have them because pro's don't need them (although they can be useful to some) and adding them adds to the cost of the camera (hence less profit). It boils down to a cost/benefit/profit decision.

 

[KeithBreazeal]

Use your smart phone as a flippy screen. Now Wi-Fi compatible!

 

[fussy III]

It's inevitable, that sooner or later someone always starts lamenting as to what the camera doesn't have. When did a body come out that someone didn't complain about, whether it's a lack of pop-up flash or more (or less) mpxls or buffer or fps and so on? It's always so much more fun to read about what a camera does have and what you can do with it! If anyone thinks their camera isn't all it's cracked up to be, compare it to a 1D or D30, though I'm sure there are still some functional ones out there and in the right hands can also take fine photos. In any case, whenever someone asks for something they can't have, I reply that I too would like to be 22 again but it's not going to happen so just deal with it. Such is life.

Yes, and the constant whining and complaining just KILLS this forum. That is why some folks - who could indeed just pass-by and leave no comment - feel the urge to leave comments that criticize the complainers and the whiners. I began shooting with a SLR in 1980 and got my first DSLR (The original digital rebel) in 2004. Today's camera - whether from Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc. are FANTASTIC. Coupled with the ability to do post processing on the computer make photography today far more fun, more successful and better in every single way, in my experience. Many different camera models are offered, so that folks can have flip screens if they want, high MPs if they want, high FPS if they want. The choices are there.

But, for some reason, all people want to do is complain. Rather than look at the positive, all they see is the negative. They want a camera to have all the features that they want. Never mind that those features may not be what someone else wants. OTHERS DON"T MATTER.

In other words, they are childish. Calling them out as such may be unnecessary - and, yes, maybe even rude. But they ruin this forum, so we want, beg, plead with them to please grow up. And maybe just maybe, they will understand that by accepting reality - and using today's fantastic cameras HAPPILY - they will actually come to enjoy photography, rather than be consumed with their anger regarding stupid Canon!

You sound like a functionary of church or of a dictatory state who proposes that only positive reports be allowed in the congregation so that the sheep be not threatened in their faith.
To put it more heroic: Yes, perhaps I am that child breaking the waves and asking for more, ready to fail and ready to take the blame of the obidient and malevolent. As long as I stimulate some thought among all too content sheep, that is fine for me.

 

[fussy III]

Use your smart phone as a flippy screen. Now Wi-Fi compatible!

Nice but not new to me.
Let me ask you: Are you proposing I have that thing constantly mounted to my camera? Now that is threatning the camera! It would eventually get hooked by vegetation etc. The hot-shoe looks equally threatened. This combination is quite unbalanced and top-heavy. And if the whole thing goes down, I cannot even contact the Pro-Service for replacement.


A flippy-swivel instead can be moved aside and to the center position. Here it can be inverted if unfavorable conditions are foreseen, making the camera less prone to damage than a body with a regular display that is constantly exposed to the possibilty of accidenatlly hitting a hard corner.

 

[fussy III]

But there is a chance that the new 6d ii will have a flip screen. It will be less robust but may incorporate other features just like 6d vs 5d3.

Incredible that people continue to claim this. Flip screen have no more failure or break rate than normal screens. End of story.

Check out LensRentals stats info.

The problem with this is its comparing apples to oranges. How many pro/semi-private bodies have flip screens vs how many enthusiast/behinner/consumer bodies have flip screens? I'd be willing to bet that if there were more pro bodies with flip screens you'd find more of them breaking.

You never know unless you try ...

 

[pixel8foto]

Been in plenty of situations where a deployed or slightly ajar flipscreen could've been cracked/damaged/knocked off, where the normal screen wouldn't. But in most of those scenarios I'd likely have only used the facility for a few minutes and then pushed it home. Are they as resistant to water and dust ingress? In the desert/at the colour run/at the muddy festival/when an egg lands on it etc? I can genuinely see one of the hinged arms getting caught on a strand of thread or on a wire or in someone's hair in a scrum and it getting bent/hurting someone, or twisted when being yanked from a camera bag in a hurry. And, if you're stuck in a muddy field with no support and limited backup for four days, if you're doing jobs day in and out where it just *has* to work, no flip screen is one less point of failure.
I'd love the feature but get why it would be a problem for a large chunk of users.

 

[Lurker]

Wirelessly connecting a smartphone to act as a viewfinder is cool and might be useful in a lot of cases a flipscreen would, but it is not the same as having a screen that allows you to hold your camera above your head in a crowd and still see what you're shooting. I think using your smartphone as a viewfinder is also going to require one or both of your hands and demand that your camera is attached to a tripod.

You must be young, holding your camera over your head and looking up at a flippy screen might work for you now but in the long term is not good for your neck and shoulders.

Sounds like what you need is a heavy duty selfie stick. A monopod with a cell phone holder attached to the leg (with zip ties or tape). When you put the camera up over your head the phone is raised to eye level. One hand on to hold the monopod up, one to stabilize and operate the phone/camera.

I bet if you reached out to RRS, Hejnar Photo, Kirk, or any other favorite accessory hardware manufacturer they might be able to make a clamp for you or already have components that could be used for one.

I really have a hard time understanding why so many people fight so ardently for less options instead of more. And all the rudeness and insults and condescension really seems uncalled for.

As I see it, Canon has leapfrogged the flippy screen thing. Options cost money. Options require support. Options add complexity. Complexity increases the risk of failure. Failure is unacceptable.

What I don't get is how some people get so hung up on old technology they can't see how a new technology can be applied to solve their problem.

 

[Jsalk]

Thanks for doing this.

I had been a canon user for 20+ years. In the digital era I had the 5D, skipped the 5D II because I was disappointed with the AF system and bought into the 5D Mark III feeling that this was a decent enough update by Canon. I did feel that they held back though. This is due to their history of making amazing film cameras like the T90 and A1 and the A1R.

The 5D cameras have never failed me in even the most challenging situations. But as I grew as a photographer, I felt that features like "spot coupled AF ", more robust weather proofing, zebra and other manual focus aids would really enhance the cameras. Built in intravelometer is a no brainier.

This is not because of the other guys having it, but the things I missed as I was using these cameras.

I eventually moved to the Sony A7R II, while keeping 5 of my most precious canon EF lenses (24-70 II, 70-200 II, 85 II, Zeiss 15 and 135)

I had a specific reason to move and that was size. I have some Zeiss ZM and Loxia lenses which are quite small and of high quality. Since I was moving to more landscape and urban photography from sports and wildlife, the manual lenses more than suited my style. Manual focusing was a pleasure using the A7r ii. I can do it very quickly and far more accurately with this camera. I can also use my favorite lens the 135 APO far easier than I could with my Mark III.

The A7R II is not a canon 5D series replacement, i think the 5D cameras are far superior.

I kept my canon lenses so that I could use some them with a future Canon that had the features that I needed.
It has not happened with either the 5DsR or the 5D Mark IV.

What's interesting is that Pentax has actually made the camera that canon should have - the K1.
IBIS, focus peaking, weather sealed, diffraction correction (wow), etc.
Unfortunately that meant new lens system. But for the cost of the 5D Mark IV, I can get a K1 and a 15-30 2.8 which is a superb ultra wide zoom. It is actually slightly sharper than the legendary Nikon 14-24.

So like you, I have evolved to a similar position, not by watching other manufacturers, but by evolving as a photographer over time.

 

[Ozarker]

Options cost money. Options require support. Options add complexity. Complexity increases the risk of failure. Failure is unacceptable.

Which is exactly why I'm switching to a pinhole camera!

Seriously, the flip / touch screen is a blessing to us old farts who have bad knees, shoulders, and backs. From what I understand the macro folks like them too.

 

[Joe M]

It's inevitable, that sooner or later someone always starts lamenting as to what the camera doesn't have. When did a body come out that someone didn't complain about, whether it's a lack of pop-up flash or more (or less) mpxls or buffer or fps and so on? It's always so much more fun to read about what a camera does have and what you can do with it! If anyone thinks their camera isn't all it's cracked up to be, compare it to a 1D or D30, though I'm sure there are still some functional ones out there and in the right hands can also take fine photos. In any case, whenever someone asks for something they can't have, I reply that I too would like to be 22 again but it's not going to happen so just deal with it. Such is life.

Yes, and the constant whining and complaining just KILLS this forum. That is why some folks - who could indeed just pass-by and leave no comment - feel the urge to leave comments that criticize the complainers and the whiners. I began shooting with a SLR in 1980 and got my first DSLR (The original digital rebel) in 2004. Today's camera - whether from Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc. are FANTASTIC. Coupled with the ability to do post processing on the computer make photography today far more fun, more successful and better in every single way, in my experience. Many different camera models are offered, so that folks can have flip screens if they want, high MPs if they want, high FPS if they want. The choices are there.

But, for some reason, all people want to do is complain. Rather than look at the positive, all they see is the negative. They want a camera to have all the features that they want. Never mind that those features may not be what someone else wants. OTHERS DON"T MATTER.

In other words, they are childish. Calling them out as such may be unnecessary - and, yes, maybe even rude. But they ruin this forum, so we want, beg, plead with them to please grow up. And maybe just maybe, they will understand that by accepting reality - and using today's fantastic cameras HAPPILY - they will actually come to enjoy photography, rather than be consumed with their anger regarding stupid Canon!

You sound like a functionary of church or of a dictatory state who proposes that only positive reports be allowed in the congregation so that the sheep be not threatened in their faith.
To put it more heroic: Yes, perhaps I am that child breaking the waves and asking for more, ready to fail and ready to take the blame of the obidient and malevolent. As long as I stimulate some thought among all too content sheep, that is fine for me.

I don't know but it seems a little harsh to use "whiner, childish" and so on. I know, I get. Some people really do post with nothing but "what isn't there" simply to whip up the masses. Personally, I was simply making an observation that over many years and many forums, I've seen most bodies announced followed by posts over what the camera doesn't have and should have had. Back in the day when I used to frequent dpr, you should have seen the giant rant over the lack of popup flash on the 5d3! Somehow, life went on without it. fussy, I don't want to imply you should ever want to settle for less. Of course we should strive for more and demand more and maybe one day we would even get it. But without putting my hands on one (5d4) yet, I'd say calling it crippled isn't quite right. You might call it lacking in features. Or maybe I would. Understand that I'm simply making an observation, there are features I am not perfectly happy with either, but, to be cliche, "it is what it is, that's how it goes, that's life, you get what you're given", and so on. Sometimes that sucks but , that's life. Hopefully, you'll pick one up and will find you can make it work in spite of the shortcomings you see in it.

 

[Don Haines]

Wirelessly connecting a smartphone to act as a viewfinder is cool and might be useful in a lot of cases a flipscreen would, but it is not the same as having a screen that allows you to hold your camera above your head in a crowd and still see what you're shooting. I think using your smartphone as a viewfinder is also going to require one or both of your hands and demand that your camera is attached to a tripod.

You must be young, holding your camera over your head and looking up at a flippy screen might work for you now but in the long term is not good for your neck and shoulders.

Sounds like what you need is a heavy duty selfie stick. A monopod with a cell phone holder attached to the leg (with zip ties or tape). When you put the camera up over your head the phone is raised to eye level. One hand on to hold the monopod up, one to stabilize and operate the phone/camera.

I bet if you reached out to RRS, Hejnar Photo, Kirk, or any other favorite accessory hardware manufacturer they might be able to make a clamp for you or already have components that could be used for one.

I really have a hard time understanding why so many people fight so ardently for less options instead of more. And all the rudeness and insults and condescension really seems uncalled for.

As I see it, Canon has leapfrogged the flippy screen thing. Options cost money. Options require support. Options add complexity. Complexity increases the risk of failure. Failure is unacceptable.

What I don't get is how some people get so hung up on old technology they can't see how a new technology can be applied to solve their problem.

One of the things I do is technical documentation and it often involves very cramped spaces. I have held onto a 60D just because it has the tilt/swivel screen. There are definitely times and places for just about any feature... but as to if it is valuable enough to include on every camera, that is a matter of opinion.... and which ever side of the issue you stand on, you are guaranteed opposition and arguments....

 

[YuengLinger]

Often the OP sets the tone of a thread with the topic title.

Adding the screen name "fussy" into the mix, along with the topic of "crippled," is clearly meant to provoke, to irk, to annoy.

Too bad so many of us took her bait! There is no evidence that fussy is even a hobbyist or in any way cares about photography.

 

[vjlex]

To all those suggesting an Angle Finder C... It's pretty much a non-starter because of its main limitation – it doesn't help with the classic hand-held selfie.

Honestly speaking, that's one of the bonus features I like about my M3! Can't deny that I would try to use it for that on a 5D body!

One of the things I do is technical documentation and it often involves very cramped spaces. I have held onto a 60D just because it has the tilt/swivel screen. There are definitely times and places for just about any feature... but as to if it is valuable enough to include on every camera, that is a matter of opinion.... and which ever side of the issue you stand on, you are guaranteed opposition and arguments....

That just made me wonder how feasible it would be to have some form of official Canon modular flip screen accessory. Something that could be mounted, maybe not on the hotshoe, but via the USB port or HDMI port, but a bit more rigid/sturdy than just a cable connection (although I admit, the picture of the smartphone connected via USB intrigues me). Preferably an accessory powered by the camera itself. That way people who don't want or need it would never have to opt for one. If it were designed right, I might consider that. Does something like that exist?

 

[dsut4392]

Add me to the flippy screen brigade, I sorely miss the lack of it on my 6D, having previously had a 60D. Primarily wilderness landscape, travel and macro shooter, occasional video.
I get the people that would miss the buttons that would have to move, but don't understand the anxiety about supposed fragility. If you're concerned that it's more fragile when the screen is flipped out, DON'T FLIP IT OUT, problem solved. Being able to fold the LCD inwards is actually an advantage, I have some small scratches and patches where the coating has worn off on my 6D screen, while my 60D screen stayed pristine until I sold it.
Didn't expect to see one on a 5D series, but hopeful it comes to a 6DII.

 

[tpatana]

And it don't even support the speed boosters! Such crippled piece of crap. I'm going to Sony.

 

[vjlex]

flippy screen brigade

Haha, I love it.

 

[Azathoth]

It's inevitable, that sooner or later someone always starts lamenting as to what the camera doesn't have. When did a body come out that someone didn't complain about, whether it's a lack of pop-up flash or more (or less) mpxls or buffer or fps and so on? It's always so much more fun to read about what a camera does have and what you can do with it! If anyone thinks their camera isn't all it's cracked up to be, compare it to a 1D or D30, though I'm sure there are still some functional ones out there and in the right hands can also take fine photos. In any case, whenever someone asks for something they can't have, I reply that I too would like to be 22 again but it's not going to happen so just deal with it. Such is life.

Yes, and the constant whining and complaining just KILLS this forum. That is why some folks - who could indeed just pass-by and leave no comment - feel the urge to leave comments that criticize the complainers and the whiners. I began shooting with a SLR in 1980 and got my first DSLR (The original digital rebel) in 2004. Today's camera - whether from Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc. are FANTASTIC. Coupled with the ability to do post processing on the computer make photography today far more fun, more successful and better in every single way, in my experience. Many different camera models are offered, so that folks can have flip screens if they want, high MPs if they want, high FPS if they want. The choices are there.

But, for some reason, all people want to do is complain. Rather than look at the positive, all they see is the negative. They want a camera to have all the features that they want. Never mind that those features may not be what someone else wants. OTHERS DON"T MATTER

In other words, they are childish. Calling them out as such may be unnecessary - and, yes, maybe even rude. But they ruin this forum, so we want, beg, plead with them to please grow up. And maybe just maybe, they will understand that by accepting reality - and using today's fantastic cameras HAPPILY - they will actually come to enjoy photography, rather than be consumed with their anger regarding stupid Canon!

Why are you being so negative towards others? Be happy and smile. Stop complaining.

 

[fussy III]

It's inevitable, that sooner or later someone always starts lamenting as to what the camera doesn't have. When did a body come out that someone didn't complain about, whether it's a lack of pop-up flash or more (or less) mpxls or buffer or fps and so on? It's always so much more fun to read about what a camera does have and what you can do with it! If anyone thinks their camera isn't all it's cracked up to be, compare it to a 1D or D30, though I'm sure there are still some functional ones out there and in the right hands can also take fine photos. In any case, whenever someone asks for something they can't have, I reply that I too would like to be 22 again but it's not going to happen so just deal with it. Such is life.

Yes, and the constant whining and complaining just KILLS this forum. That is why some folks - who could indeed just pass-by and leave no comment - feel the urge to leave comments that criticize the complainers and the whiners. I began shooting with a SLR in 1980 and got my first DSLR (The original digital rebel) in 2004. Today's camera - whether from Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc. are FANTASTIC. Coupled with the ability to do post processing on the computer make photography today far more fun, more successful and better in every single way, in my experience. Many different camera models are offered, so that folks can have flip screens if they want, high MPs if they want, high FPS if they want. The choices are there.

But, for some reason, all people want to do is complain. Rather than look at the positive, all they see is the negative. They want a camera to have all the features that they want. Never mind that those features may not be what someone else wants. OTHERS DON"T MATTER.

In other words, they are childish. Calling them out as such may be unnecessary - and, yes, maybe even rude. But they ruin this forum, so we want, beg, plead with them to please grow up. And maybe just maybe, they will understand that by accepting reality - and using today's fantastic cameras HAPPILY - they will actually come to enjoy photography, rather than be consumed with their anger regarding stupid Canon!

You sound like a functionary of church or of a dictatory state who proposes that only positive reports be allowed in the congregation so that the sheep be not threatened in their faith.
To put it more heroic: Yes, perhaps I am that child breaking the waves and asking for more, ready to fail and ready to take the blame of the obidient and malevolent. As long as I stimulate some thought among all too content sheep, that is fine for me.

I don't know but it seems a little harsh to use "whiner, childish" and so on. I know, I get. Some people really do post with nothing but "what isn't there" simply to whip up the masses. Personally, I was simply making an observation that over many years and many forums, I've seen most bodies announced followed by posts over what the camera doesn't have and should have had. Back in the day when I used to frequent dpr, you should have seen the giant rant over the lack of popup flash on the 5d3! Somehow, life went on without it. fussy, I don't want to imply you should ever want to settle for less. Of course we should strive for more and demand more and maybe one day we would even get it. But without putting my hands on one (5d4) yet, I'd say calling it crippled isn't quite right. You might call it lacking in features. Or maybe I would. Understand that I'm simply making an observation, there are features I am not perfectly happy with either, but, to be cliche, "it is what it is, that's how it goes, that's life, you get what you're given", and so on. Sometimes that sucks but , that's life. Hopefully, you'll pick one up and will find you can make it work in spite of the shortcomings you see in it.

My defense here was solely aimed at dak723. Your initial criticism of my post wasn't the least bit insulting or inadequate. Perhaps on my part I should have omitted the word "crippled" two out of three times. But in the light of what a generalist camera could (or should) have been, I really do feel the lack of a flippy makes the 5DIV a crippled generalist.

A generalist per definition should try to accomodate most all of the needs of a demanding crowd and it should suit most any purpose. Perhaps we can see that many in this forum would agree that of those features which are truly decisive to getting certain images that stand out from the crowd, the lack of a flippy is signifying the most obvious gap between a great and a generalist camera. And since Canon has a great concept for a swivel working in the 80D, it is really quite hard to understand they haven't integrated it into any fullframe or pro-level camera for so many years now. However I do understand the reservations of moving on from the camera-back layout of the 5D IV to a concept approaching the 80D or to an entire new concept.

Granted. But if not the 5D-series is to receive a flippy-swivel, than another camera sharing the otherwise universalistic features of the 5D IV should. There should be a full-frame camera with brutally fast AF, megapixels, weather-resistance, fast fps, large buffer AND flippy-swivel.

After all this discussion I believe it to be quite obvious that the market for such an EOS would be huge and might even exceed that of the 5D IV. And that may even hold true in case a slightly higher pricepoint cannot be circumnavigated by the engineers.

Thanks to anyone who has seriously engaged in the discussion, be it from the flippy-brigade on from their opponents side.

 

[x-vision]

A generalist per definition should try to accomodate most all of the needs of a demanding crowd and it should suit most any purpose.

A generalist is a jack of all trades, master of none.
If your demands are too high, you would be better served by a specialist, not by a generalist.

You seem to expect that a single camera should be a specialist at everything.
Good luck with that.