EOS 5D Mark IV - the crippled generalist

[sebasan]

Turtle is the tipical "few comments" boy which copy and paste in every forum he can the same text.
In resume, a troll.
If he like so much the D750, get one and go take photos. They are going to be awesome or awfull like the canon 5d mark III photos he could take, because at the end the most important thing with these pro tools is whoever use them.

 

[GMCPhotographics]

Who needs a fragile flippy screen when you have the new wi-fi feature...iphone compatible app...you can choose all the camera settings and even the live view AF from the phone screen. Flippy screens are so pre-5D4....

 

[scyrene]

Who needs a fragile flippy screen when you have the new wi-fi feature...iphone compatible app...you can choose all the camera settings and even the live view AF from the phone screen. Flippy screens are so pre-5D4....

People keep talking abput using a phone or similar as an external controller, but I genuinely don't quite see how it works - unless you're using a tripod. How do you handhold a DSLR and a phone at the same time and retain any control?

 

[tpatana]

Who needs a fragile flippy screen when you have the new wi-fi feature...iphone compatible app...you can choose all the camera settings and even the live view AF from the phone screen. Flippy screens are so pre-5D4....

People keep talking abput using a phone or similar as an external controller, but I genuinely don't quite see how it works - unless you're using a tripod. How do you handhold a DSLR and a phone at the same time and retain any control?

I ordered 2 holders. One has couple options including the 1/4 screw so I can mount it almost anywhere, including the cage and the flash hotshoe. Other holder has the pipe clam attachment, so I can have it on any pole/pipe, including the steadicam pole.

 

[unfocused]

Who needs a fragile flippy screen when you have the new wi-fi feature...iphone compatible app...you can choose all the camera settings and even the live view AF from the phone screen. Flippy screens are so pre-5D4....

People keep talking abput using a phone or similar as an external controller, but I genuinely don't quite see how it works - unless you're using a tripod. How do you handhold a DSLR and a phone at the same time and retain any control?

I ordered 2 holders. One has couple options including the 1/4 screw so I can mount it almost anywhere, including the cage and the flash hotshoe. Other holder has the pipe clam attachment, so I can have it on any pole/pipe, including the steadicam pole.

Still, I would agree with Scyrene, in many situations, an iPhone or iPad is just not going to be as convenient as a built in screen. Anyone who has had to hold a camera up over their head to shoot above a crowd (as in a press gang bang) knows that a separate unit is not a good solution. I also get tired of this myth of flip screens being fragile. It's just not true. In fact, I would be willing to bet that a flip screen is way more robust than a flat screen on a camera back, where it is much more likely to get banged about. Plus, I am quite certain that a flip screen is far easier to weather seal and much easier to replace if it happens to somehow break.

I'm officially neutral on the desire for one. I wouldn't mind it, but don't consider it a make or break feature. The biggest downside in my mind is the penalty one pays in loss of real estate on the backside of the camera to make room for the hinges. I like my buttons where they are. I suspect that may have more to do with why Canon doesn't put the flipscreen on professional level bodies than any questions about durability.

 

[scyrene]

Who needs a fragile flippy screen when you have the new wi-fi feature...iphone compatible app...you can choose all the camera settings and even the live view AF from the phone screen. Flippy screens are so pre-5D4....

People keep talking abput using a phone or similar as an external controller, but I genuinely don't quite see how it works - unless you're using a tripod. How do you handhold a DSLR and a phone at the same time and retain any control?

I ordered 2 holders. One has couple options including the 1/4 screw so I can mount it almost anywhere, including the cage and the flash hotshoe. Other holder has the pipe clam attachment, so I can have it on any pole/pipe, including the steadicam pole.

Oooh, okay. I hadn't thought of that.

 

[turtle]

Ah, such condescension from another person who can only respond to reasoned posts with insults (and poor spelling in this case). I'd be interested for you to show me the other forums I have copied and pasted the same text into ad nauseam, but we both know you made that bit up.

I was eagerly awaiting the release of the 5D IV, like many people. My reaction to it is lukewarm, but at the UK price, much colder. This forum can be very 'you're either with us, or against us' which is a shame. Criticism immediately invokes insults, rather than responses to the actual points raised. Just reading through this thread makes this clear. Those who've criticised have been responded to with derision. What seems to be escaping many of the protagonists is that this sort of blind loyalty and inability to tolerate constructive criticism from potential customers with valid concerns is precisely why the 5D IV was released with such a limited buffer (for its price point) and conventional CF/SD card slots.

Maybe we can get past the idea that criticism or disagreement is trolling? Maybe we can also understand that insults, however minor you (and your ilk) may consider them to be, are still insults. They serve no constructive purpose and are the preserve of weak minds unable to formulate more intelligent responses. Along the way you may also like to note that the opinions I have raised are also shared by quite a few reviewers and other professional photographers online.

P.S. Do you have a portfolio Sebasan?

Turtle is the tipical "few comments" boy which copy and paste in every forum he can the same text.
In resume, a troll.
If he like so much the D750, get one and go take photos. They are going to be awesome or awfull like the canon 5d mark III photos he could take, because at the end the most important thing with these pro tools is whoever use them.

 

[scyrene]

I was eagerly awaiting the release of the 5D IV, like many people. My reaction to it is lukewarm, but at the UK price, much colder.

I'm not over the moon about the price either. But from what I can tell, most of that isn't Canon's fault. Anyhow, it's already dropped to £3100 on SLR Hut (if you don't mind buying grey market).

This forum can be very 'you're either with us, or against us' which is a shame. Criticism immediately invokes insults, rather than responses to the actual points raised. Just reading through this thread makes this clear. Those who've criticised have been responded to with derision. What seems to be escaping many of the protagonists is that this sort of blind loyalty and inability to tolerate constructive criticism from potential customers with valid concerns is precisely why the 5D IV was released with such a limited buffer (for its price point) and conventional CF/SD card slots.

Maybe we can get past the idea that criticism or disagreement is trolling? Maybe we can also understand that insults, however minor you (and your ilk) may consider them to be, are still insults. They serve no constructive purpose and are the preserve of weak minds unable to formulate more intelligent responses. Along the way you may also like to note that the opinions I have raised are also shared by quite a few reviewers and other professional photographers online.

P.S. Do you have a portfolio Sebasan?

Turtle is the tipical "few comments" boy which copy and paste in every forum he can the same text.
In resume, a troll.
If he like so much the D750, get one and go take photos. They are going to be awesome or awfull like the canon 5d mark III photos he could take, because at the end the most important thing with these pro tools is whoever use them.

With all due respect, if you waltz into a forum and start saying things like 'there were no major upgrades from the 5D2 to the 5D3', you can expect short shrift from other users. Some of us have furnished you with evidence as to why we think you're wrong. A combative or dismissive tone is likely to elicit a likewise response (see below).

I think core performance is much more important than long lists of small tweaks, many of which are largely meaningless and with others already existing in cameras a fraction of the price. Everything new comes with 'its so much better' marketing blurb. The real question is how much these things really mean to a photographer.

I don't recall insulting anyone.... You can throw cheap insults around all you like, but it just makes you sound like a petulant fanboy and only diminishes your credibility. If you wish to regain it, perhaps answer the main question I essentially asked:

In what areas does this camera justify its much higher price over a D750? And don't forget that the D750 has some features not found on the 5D IV. I'll help you: don't say 'it has an improved tripod mount'.

But surely Canon has innovated in core areas of DSLR performance in the past in ways that it just isn't now?

5D: ground-breaking prosumer level FF DSLR.
5D II: Huge resolution leap. Far ahead of the competition. Awesome video.
5D III: Better all round camera with very marginal sensor upgrade, with DR and read noise still being a major problem in high DR situations. Good video, but competition has caught up.
5D IV: The sensor is now up to date, but rest of the camera is barely different to the 5DIII

really?
- more intelligent viewfinder, level,etc in viewfinder.
- GPS, wifi and NFC
- increased fps
- lowered blackout/shutter lag.
- better mirror / shutter motor - decreased shutter shock.
- better weathersealing and build quality including tripod mount.
- better AF (f/8 all points), 5 high precision cross types.
- improved itR (added second DiGiC Processor for iTR and AF/AE - the only non 1 series to have a dedicated AF DiGiC)
- Improved Auto-ISO
- added Flicker control and white balance priority
- added intervalometer,
- added DPRAW and DLO in camera
- fixed SD card write speed,
- sensor is 30Mp versus 21MP, improved color, DR,etc.
and that's just off the top of my head.

Did you just take a look at the 5,000 foot specifications and come to your conclusion?

The whiners just like whining. Their comments are a joke. Period.

Jack

 

[sebasan]

I don't respond to trolls in general but i have to make some point. I am not an english native speaker, sorry if my spealling is not good. Besides being a troll, are you a xenophobic too?
The most annoying thing about these people is that they "poison" a thread and make it unreadable in most cases.
There are a lot of forum members doing critiscism without being a troll, and those discussion are always interesting.

 

[GMCPhotographics]

Who needs a fragile flippy screen when you have the new wi-fi feature...iphone compatible app...you can choose all the camera settings and even the live view AF from the phone screen. Flippy screens are so pre-5D4....

People keep talking abput using a phone or similar as an external controller, but I genuinely don't quite see how it works - unless you're using a tripod. How do you handhold a DSLR and a phone at the same time and retain any control?

I ordered 2 holders. One has couple options including the 1/4 screw so I can mount it almost anywhere, including the cage and the flash hotshoe. Other holder has the pipe clam attachment, so I can have it on any pole/pipe, including the steadicam pole.

I also get tired of this myth of flip screens being fragile. It's just not true. In fact, I would be willing to bet that a flip screen is way more robust than a flat screen on a camera back, where it is much more likely to get banged about. Plus, I am quite certain that a flip screen is far easier to weather seal and much easier to replace if it happens to somehow break.

Well....they "myth" as you put it came from the lips of Chuck Westfall a few years back. He should know and he says that Canon have built a number of robust prototypes but they just were not robust enough to put on a professional line of cameras.

 

[Don Haines]

Who needs a fragile flippy screen when you have the new wi-fi feature...iphone compatible app...you can choose all the camera settings and even the live view AF from the phone screen. Flippy screens are so pre-5D4....

People keep talking abput using a phone or similar as an external controller, but I genuinely don't quite see how it works - unless you're using a tripod. How do you handhold a DSLR and a phone at the same time and retain any control?

I ordered 2 holders. One has couple options including the 1/4 screw so I can mount it almost anywhere, including the cage and the flash hotshoe. Other holder has the pipe clam attachment, so I can have it on any pole/pipe, including the steadicam pole.

I also get tired of this myth of flip screens being fragile. It's just not true. In fact, I would be willing to bet that a flip screen is way more robust than a flat screen on a camera back, where it is much more likely to get banged about. Plus, I am quite certain that a flip screen is far easier to weather seal and much easier to replace if it happens to somehow break.

Well....they "myth" as you put it came from the lips of Chuck Westfall a few years back. He should know and he says that Canon have built a number of robust prototypes but they just were not robust enough to put on a professional line of cameras.

There is no possible way that a flip screen will ever be as robust as a fixed screen.... EVER! except for when the flip screen is closed and the display is protected from scratches....

That said, is it robust enough? Very few of us are going to try to pick up the camera by the flip screen..... and if you bump it, it moves, not breaks off, moves! Water sealing isn't a problem.... Remember when the 5D2 and 60D came out...... and how the 60D with its flippy screen had superior water sealing to the 5D2? And where are all the people who should be complaining about breaking their flippy screens? A remarkable silence! Every time this issue has been raised on the forum people respond with how their fixed screens were damaged and how if it were flipped over into the stow position like the flippy screens, it would not have happened....

 

[unfocused]

I also get tired of this myth of flip screens being fragile. It's just not true.

Well....they "myth" as you put it came from the lips of Chuck Westfall a few years back. He should know and he says that Canon have built a number of robust prototypes but they just were not robust enough to put on a professional line of cameras.

Just like Canon's spokesmodels claimed you couldn't put wifi or GPS in a pro-level body until the market demanded that they do it, then it suddenly became possible.

 

[unfocused]

There is no possible way that a flip screen will ever be as robust as a fixed screen.... EVER! except for when the flip screen is closed and the display is protected from scratches....

That said, is it robust enough? Very few of us are going to try to pick up the camera by the flip screen..... and if you bump it, it moves, not breaks off, moves! Water sealing isn't a problem.... Remember when the 5D2 and 60D came out...... and how the 60D with its flippy screen had superior water sealing to the 5D2? And where are all the people who should be complaining about breaking their flippy screens? A remarkable silence! Every time this issue has been raised on the forum people respond with how their fixed screens were damaged and how if it were flipped over into the stow position like the flippy screens, it would not have happened....

I think your first sentence is rather bold and without any documentation. Perhaps you meant to say that is what you believe, because without access to test results, we can't know that. I believe it can be made equal to or greater than an integrated screen because the screen holder can be engineered solely for the purpose of protecting the screen, while an integrated screen must take into consideration the overall design limitations of the total body. In fact your second paragraph (which I agree with) contradicts your first, since weatherproofing is certainly a factor in whether or not a feature is robust and if a flip screen has superior weatherproofing, then by definition an integrated screen cannot be more robust.

Nonetheless, we are in basic agreement and I am certain that when Canon finally does implement flip screens into its pro level bodies, they will assure us that they are better than integrated screens.

 

[davidmurray]

Dear All,

Like so many others I feel alienated from Canon by their decisions to cripple each of the cameras in their lineup in one way or the other.

After so many years I was hoping Canon would for once address the generalists among photographers instead of offering bits and pieces here and there throughout their line-up. I wish I could buy a universal camera with multiple identical backups as in the old days of the EOS1n or EOS3. But neither the 5D IV nor the 1Dx II nor the 5DSr nor the 80D fullfill the modern needs of generalist photographers.

Speaking of myself, I photograph wildlife with super-teles, I am into fine-art landscapes and for people-reportages I do wide-angle from the hip and around corners. In all these areas I have come to absolutely depend on a flippy tilt screen that is part of the camera. It just gives you all the freedom to choose the best possible angle of view and some of my best compositions I only found because I employed the flippy-tilt as my third eye. I find it hard to accept that the old Rolleiflex of my dad can do things Canons new generalist fails at. I am not overly lazy, immobile or bashful. I do lie down on the ground a lot in public and nature. However there are many situations when you either physically cannot move your body in the right spot or when doing so is impractical or even dangerous. The 70D/80D does the job, the 5D IV won't

These are my personal must-haves:

-Fullframe
-reasonable speed and buffer
-articulating screen
-highest possible resolution, minimum 30 Megapixel
-weather sealing


list of shortcomings in the 5D IV:

-no articulating screen
-inclusion of AA-filter (Why not bringing a EOS 5D IVr to the market as alternative?)
-buffer is rather limited (why no XQD)
-only offering uncompressed MPEG makes filming 4k impractical to most of us
-no accessory EVF
-no truly silent mode

For the mean-time, I consider selling my 16-35 L IS and adding a Pentax K1 with a 15-30/2.8 to my equipment for reportage and landscape purposes. What I like about Pentax is the fact that allthough they do not have access to all the finest technologies like dual pixel af or even a fast regular autofocus, at least they try to give you everything they can in a single package. But ironically I prefer Canon's flippy-tilt concept over Pentax'.

So why can Canon not try to do their best? How arrogant must the company's managers be to think that they can keep crippling their cameras without loosing market-shares? I honestly mourn. But more so I am angry: Photographing with Canon nowadays feels like sitting in an Opera with a star cast but with those highly acclaimed singers not giving a S___ about the arts or the audience on that very evening. Bad performance. Guess I stick to my old recordings or buy a Pentax instead. Not a big voice but giving their best whenever they go on stage.

I foresee: If the 6D II will come out with a flippy-tilt screen, it will not have more than 5fps.
Deal-breaker? No. But then it will need to have 30Megapixel and no AA-filter. Then to the generalist who can sacrifice fps it could be a compromise that might be worth owning for a few years. The 5D IV definately isn't.

Canon's Earnesty Officially sucks.

No amount of childlike self-centered toy-throwing will change the fact that the 5D4 is an excellent camera well suited for a very wide range of situations - wider than its predecessor the 5D3. If you're so desperate for a flippy screen then buy a camera that has one. I for one am glad the 5D4 doesn't have that because I value robustness over having a flippy screen.

I got one consider the 5D4 to be an excellent camera for general purpose use.

I for one value having the anti-aliasing filter because I really don't like moire patterns in my images unless they were the subject of the photo!

Aliasing artifacts are bad - in sound AND in images.

And, as far as image resolution is concerned, a 5D3 prints comfortably onto A2 paper without needing to compromise on print resolution, and the 5D4 can easily print larger!

I can't think of a "general purpose" situation that needs images larger than A2.

Can you?

 

[Don Haines]

There is no possible way that a flip screen will ever be as robust as a fixed screen.... EVER! except for when the flip screen is closed and the display is protected from scratches....

That said, is it robust enough? Very few of us are going to try to pick up the camera by the flip screen..... and if you bump it, it moves, not breaks off, moves! Water sealing isn't a problem.... Remember when the 5D2 and 60D came out...... and how the 60D with its flippy screen had superior water sealing to the 5D2? And where are all the people who should be complaining about breaking their flippy screens? A remarkable silence! Every time this issue has been raised on the forum people respond with how their fixed screens were damaged and how if it were flipped over into the stow position like the flippy screens, it would not have happened....

I think your first sentence is rather bold and without any documentation. Perhaps you meant to say that is what you believe, because without access to test results, we can't know that. I believe it can be made equal to or greater than an integrated screen because the screen holder can be engineered solely for the purpose of protecting the screen, while an integrated screen must take into consideration the overall design limitations of the total body. In fact your second paragraph (which I agree with) contradicts your first, since weatherproofing is certainly a factor in whether or not a feature is robust and if a flip screen has superior weatherproofing, then by definition an integrated screen cannot be more robust.

Nonetheless, we are in basic agreement and I am certain that when Canon finally does implement flip screens into its pro level bodies, they will assure us that they are better than integrated screens.

My language may not have been very clear..... please allow me the luxury of a re-write

This assumes the same quality of screen. It is installed into a device. That mounting can either be directly into a camera body, or into an articulated mount. The articulated mount involves extra (and moving) parts and therefore has a greater probability of mechanical failure. Although this is true in theory, in practice there has not been a significant problem with articulated screens breaking.

Protection of the screen is a separate factor. An articulated screen in the stored position offers greater protection to the screen than the screen has on a non-articulated mount, yet when in the folded-out position, offers less protection.

Anecdotal evidence in this forum has shown that a greater number of people have complained of damage to screens that could have been prevented by having an articulated screen in the stowed position, than have complained of broken or failed articulated screens. This raises the interesting situation where for the typical user, the protection of the screen far outweighs the probability of failure/breakage of the articulated screen.

With weatherproofing, the same degree of weatherproofing of the screen to the articulated mount or to the camera body should provide the same level of sealing. The ends of the flex cable, where it enters the body or the display section of the articulated mount, is trivial to seal. Therefore, there really shouldn't be much difference , if any, between the two.

Does this make more sense?

 

[CSD]

One major flaw for the articulated screens that would make the camera unusable for many is the fact the hinge would remove almost all the left hand side buttons, things like your rate button, erase, view and so on. Things that you use day-to-day in actual projects. Yes they can be replaced by a touch screen but then your consuming more power to run that display, touch processor and also the software processor compared which all adds up compared to a software processor and display. The fragility of the hinge and/or the assembly is only one factor against it when you're considering in the ergonomics of the 5D chassis which hasn't changed much and most people are happy with.

 

[Ozarker]

One major flaw for the articulated screens that would make the camera unusable for many is the fact the hinge would remove almost all the left hand side buttons, things like your rate button, erase, view and so on. Things that you use day-to-day in actual projects. Yes they can be replaced by a touch screen but then your consuming more power to run that display, touch processor and also the software processor compared which all adds up compared to a software processor and display. The fragility of the hinge and/or the assembly is only one factor against it when you're considering in the ergonomics of the 5D chassis which hasn't changed much and most people are happy with.

No, you don't lose the buttons. They are all there just in a different place. : The only button missing is the picture style button which is on a rotating knob anyway. Don't you guys who say these things about articulating screens even look at the camera's?

Rate button? It is on the back screen where one is looking at the photo anyway. I don't know that anyone rates a photo without looking at the back screen. Are you reviewing and rating photos through the viewfinder?

Sheesh!

The got dang screen doesn't make the camera unusable for ANYBODY!

If you don't like the screen you don't like the screen. That's fine. Just be honest and don't make stuff up out of thin air.

Many people would have loved and articulating screen on the 5D Mark IV. Tell me; where did you get the figure that MOST people are happy without the screen?

 

[tpatana]

Well, not counting wheel and joystick, your picture has 9 button, 5D4 has 13.

 

[unfocused]

Does this make more sense?

All valid points. No disagreement here.

 

[vjlex]

Did they finally get rid of the Print button, because that one had to be the biggest waste of real estate on the back of the camera IMO. The Rate button is a close second. And the Picture Styles button is third. I would gladly lose a couple buttons that could easily be re-assigned (for those who need them) if it meant a flip screen.

I'm not neutral. I was definitely hoping for a flip screen. But lack of one hasn't deterred me from admiring and planning to invest in a 5D Mark IV. It may seem futile to some, but I for one hope more people keep making noise about it. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Voicing your dissatisfaction does not "poison" a thread or make it "unreadable". It's the internet. You're neither forced to read nor respond.