EOS 5D Mark IV - the crippled generalist

[Ozarker]

Did they finally get rid of the Print button, because that one had to be the biggest waste of real estate on the back of the camera IMO. The Rate button is a close second. And the Picture Styles button is third. I would gladly lose a couple buttons that could easily be re-assigned (for those who need them) if it meant a flip screen.

I'm not neutral. I was definitely hoping for a flip screen. But lack of one hasn't deterred me from admiring and planning to invest in a 5D Mark IV. It may seem futile to some, but I for one hope more people keep making noise about it. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Voicing your dissatisfaction does not "poison" a thread or make it "unreadable". It's the internet. You're neither forced to read nor respond.

True on all counts.

I'd get a Mark IV in a minute screen or not. My body (The one I was born with ) is getting old and the flip screen would be great.

 

[sebasan]

Did they finally get rid of the Print button, because that one had to be the biggest waste of real estate on the back of the camera IMO. The Rate button is a close second. And the Picture Styles button is third. I would gladly lose a couple buttons that could easily be re-assigned (for those who need them) if it meant a flip screen.

I'm not neutral. I was definitely hoping for a flip screen. But lack of one hasn't deterred me from admiring and planning to invest in a 5D Mark IV. It may seem futile to some, but I for one hope more people keep making noise about it. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Voicing your dissatisfaction does not "poison" a thread or make it "unreadable". It's the internet. You're neither forced to read nor respond.

I think that you miss the point in what i was refering. I wasn't talking about the discussion on the flip screen and other interesting aspects. "There are a lot of forum members doing critiscism without being a troll, and those discussion are always interesting." I said that too and I think that you didn't read it.

 

[vjlex]

I think that you miss the point in what i was refering. I wasn't talking about the discussion on the flip screen and other interesting aspects. "There are a lot of forum members doing critiscism without being a troll, and those discussion are always interesting." I said that too and I think that you didn't read it.

I think the thing about the "troll" label is that it has become a pejorative catchall for anyone we disagree with or don't like how they said something. It's a term I don't like, and don't use because it's grossly overused and in my opinion, a bit childish. It's not really our job to police the forums and determine whose opinion is valid and whose is invalid.

I mean no disrespect (as a matter of fact, I respect your command of the English language, despite not being a native speaker). I did read your post though. And I'm pretty sure I got the point. My take on it is just that, not everything that we interpret as whining or complaining or "trolling" is actually "trolling". It doesn't take away from the discussion for me as much as trying to shutdown someone else's opinion does.

 

[sebasan]

I think that you miss the point in what i was refering. I wasn't talking about the discussion on the flip screen and other interesting aspects. "There are a lot of forum members doing critiscism without being a troll, and those discussion are always interesting." I said that too and I think that you didn't read it.

I think the thing about the "troll" label is that it has become a pejorative catchall for anyone we disagree with or don't like how they said something. It's a term I don't like, and don't use because it's grossly overused and in my opinion, a bit childish. It's not really our job to police the forums and determine whose opinion is valid and whose is invalid.

I mean no disrespect (as a matter of fact, I respect your command of the English language, despite not being a native speaker). I did read your post though. And I'm pretty sure I got the point. My take on it is just that, not everything that we interpret as whining or complaining or "trolling" is actually "trolling". It doesn't take away from the discussion for me as much as trying to shutdown someone else's opinion does.

I am not a really active user posting, but i am constantly reading this forum and others. I can be wrong of course, but that experience show me that some comments and members don't contribute to much to the discussion. I am not a police of the forums and intend to be, but sometimes I get tired and "explote" against those comments. I wasn't the only one to do it.

 

[scyrene]

I think the thing about the "troll" label is that it has become a pejorative catchall for anyone we disagree with or don't like how they said something. It's a term I don't like, and don't use because it's grossly overused and in my opinion, a bit childish. It's not really our job to police the forums and determine whose opinion is valid and whose is invalid.

I mean no disrespect (as a matter of fact, I respect your command of the English language, despite not being a native speaker). I did read your post though. And I'm pretty sure I got the point. My take on it is just that, not everything that we interpret as whining or complaining or "trolling" is actually "trolling". It doesn't take away from the discussion for me as much as trying to shutdown someone else's opinion does.

You're absolutely right. Troll is an overused term. However, that does not mean it is always inaccurate (to be more precise it now has more than one meaning in this context). And it's often quite hard to tell if someone is a troll in the sense of making outrageous comments just to upset people and create arguments, or if they genuinely believe what they're saying, or else they're just prone to ridiculous exaggeration.

It's also not really possible to 'shut down' someone's opinion on here, unless you get them banned from the forum. Dissecting their arguments, demanding evidence, or dismissing their comments based on their tone or content doesn't stop them from replying, or anyone else. It's part of how debate works, especially on the internet.

 

[d]

While "troll" is overused on many forums, I feel that it doesn't get used that often here on CR without being warranted. I only really notice it being used for seemingly new members with single digit post counts whose opening post is to heavily criticise some aspect of Canon for not being like Sony/Nikon/whatever.

 

[scyrene]

While "troll" is overused on many forums, I feel that it doesn't get used that often here on CR without being warranted. I only really notice it being used for seemingly new members with single digit post counts whose opening post is to heavily criticise some aspect of Canon for not being like Sony/Nikon/whatever.

Especially ones that say 'I've been a Canon user for twenty+ years and own [lists high end gear], and THIS TIME I'm selling up and moving to Nikon' :

 

[cpsico]

After using the camera for a bit, I think it does exactly what its designed to do. It has a complex focus system. But you can switch modes with one hand while looking through the view finder.

Its has the best image quality of any canon i have used. Even the Halo'd 1 Ds Mark III, which I will continue to use till the day it dies!!! But long boring story short, if you can't afford a 1D camera and a 6D won't do it for you, this is the camera to have.

This is straight out of camera with a little bit of tone curve( I dialed back exposure because of all the dark tones, then had to bring it back up a bit).

I think the 6d is the best for casual shooting still, but this is better, even more so than my 1 Ds Mark III which kind of feels like cheating to say. But its IQ is great!! I long for the day when a true studio camera in a 1D body comes out again.

 

[fussy III]

Perhaps on my part I should have omitted the word "crippled" two out of three times. But in the light of what a generalist camera could (or should) have been, I really do feel the lack of a flippy makes the 5DIV a crippled generalist.

After all this discussion I believe it to be quite obvious that the market for such an EOS would be huge and might even exceed that of the 5D IV. And that may even hold true in case a slightly higher pricepoint cannot be circumnavigated by the engineers.

Thanks to anyone who has seriously engaged in the discussion, be it from the flippy-brigade on from their opponents side.

And now he's sober.

... yet no less frustrated with Canon.

 

[cpsico]

Whats truly ironic is how much the stills image quality in canons DSLR cameras have improved since they abandoned higher end video features to there video line. I guess making a camera that is better for video really does take its toll on still image quality!!

 

[Josh Denver]

t I think it is fair to say it is no better or worse overall than the D750 sensor.

It is sad to continually people expecting things from Canon that would go against what Canon has done for years. These are the cameras they offer. It has nothing to do with what Nikon offers. If you seriously believe the Nikon offers more of what you want for a better price, you would be foolish not to switch. On the other hand, there are probably thousands of photographers who prefer their 5D III over the products Nikon offers. Unless you are a pixel peeper, you won't see much difference in IQ from almost any of the top brand cameras. In terms of reliability, Canon seems to consistently produce the best cameras. If you already have the 5D III, then there is probably very little reason to upgrade. There aren't revolutionary upgrades. There is very little difference between cameras if you ignore the techno-geeks and the pixel peepers who count the grains of noise to determine if the newer model is maybe 5% better.

Who knows, maybe Canon will offer a FF camera situated between the 6D and the 5D IV. You could wait to see what the 6D II will offer, but don't be surprised if it remains the entry level, least expensive FF as it is now. Based on its success and Canon's success, Canon seems to know what they are doing - even if it doesn't satisfy your personal wishes.

Just my opinions of course. But it seems odd, given the high level of today's cameras, that so many are unhappy.

[/quote]

Built. This alone is worse the cose difference to many. But if you want to a list a ''struggling to find where it's better'' I can give you one off thw top of my head

-30mp resolution stills, yet similar ISO performance
-Dual pixel AF: live view Continuous AF ans video AF D750 can't touch.
-Liveview implementation on D750 lags when you punch in! And is nearly useless in AF.
-DPRAW: ability for focus plane microadjusrment in post! AND 1+ stop of DR so more than d750.
-More AF points and bigger coverage, and works at f8! Nothing a nikon dreams of
-D810 level viewfinder, in glass quality and size and LCD overlay, just look through both
-Faster burst rate and buffer sustained for longer tracking
-USB 3 and NFC connections.
-Immensely more complex shutter mechanism driven by a separate motor vs springs giving almost no shutter shock and quiet shutter, and most importantly 1/8000s speed.
-Touchscreen operation and higher resolution LCD
-Built in GPS tracking

These are the stills improvements I can remember. Video:

-4K vs soft HD.
-APS-C Crop is CRAP, aliased, soft, vs 1:1 4K!
-4:2:2 chroma subsampling = broadcast approved for EU vs can't be used.
-500mbps vs 24mbps, and as expected immense compression quality difference.
-C300 Quality HDMI OUTPUT (IN-Camera oversampling.
That was all dx/aps-c modes. FF mode:
-90mbps ALL-I codec with choice of lower quality Long GOP option vs 24mpbs Long Gop.
-Usable HDMI ouput (not only 30p!)
-Dual pixel auto focus almost an industry changing technology of the cinema world
-Can pull focus with a tablet
-1080p 60p doesn't lose quality
-Incredible HDR video mode using that fact
-120p slowmotion at full frame
-True film 24p mode vs 29.97p

I think I can go on but my thumbs hurt. it's an enturely different class of camera, a class NIkon also makes and charges the same for. D750 is a wonderfull camera we hope the 6D Mark two gets some notes from.

 

[tpatana]

-C300 Quality HDMI OUTPUT (IN-Camera oversampling.

Can you tell more details on this? Colors better?

-120p slowmotion at full frame

One thing nobody told me until I had the camera in had, and the camera told. After enabling 120p, you lose AF during video I'm sad puppy over that. I guess there's some technical reason on this, hoping for ML to fix it.

Also curious to see what ML can do on the video modes, e.g. if 4k full frame is possible.

 

[3kramd5]

Did they finally get rid of the Print button, because that one had to be the biggest waste of real estate on the back of the camera IMO. The Rate button is a close second. And the Picture Styles button is third. I would gladly lose a couple buttons that could easily be re-assigned (for those who need them) if it meant a flip screen.

I'm not neutral. I was definitely hoping for a flip screen. But lack of one hasn't deterred me from admiring and planning to invest in a 5D Mark IV. It may seem futile to some, but I for one hope more people keep making noise about it. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Voicing your dissatisfaction does not "poison" a thread or make it "unreadable". It's the internet. You're neither forced to read nor respond.

I like the rate button. It's handy while working with models who want input into selection but won't be around during post.

That said, I can live without it.

 

[Labdoc]

Did they finally get rid of the Print button, because that one had to be the biggest waste of real estate on the back of the camera IMO. The Rate button is a close second. And the Picture Styles button is third. I would gladly lose a couple buttons that could easily be re-assigned (for those who need them) if it meant a flip screen.

I'm not neutral. I was definitely hoping for a flip screen. But lack of one hasn't deterred me from admiring and planning to invest in a 5D Mark IV. It may seem futile to some, but I for one hope more people keep making noise about it. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Voicing your dissatisfaction does not "poison" a thread or make it "unreadable". It's the internet. You're neither forced to read nor respond.

I like the rate button. It's handy while working with models who want input into selection but won't be around during post.

That said, I can live without it.

There is room under the screen for a hinge. No button loss. Pics of the new Sony A99 II have this feature ,not mentioning this to promote Sony but to show it can be done. Not the best location but it keeps the buttons.

 

[deadwrong]

OK better think SERIOUSLY about SONY now......

http://thenewcamera.com/sony-a99-ii-announced-press-release-full-specification-and-more/


WOW.

 

[Deleted member 7828]

You know, for all the hype Sony cameras get...I tried an A7R II in store a few months back and not only did I find the handling funky, I also hated the way the camera rendered skin tones...

Of course, this is not to say it's a bad camera - it's not - but just because it ticks all of your boxes doesn't mean it will tick all of everyone else's

 

[fussy III]

OK better think SERIOUSLY about SONY now......

http://thenewcamera.com/sony-a99-ii-announced-press-release-full-specification-and-more/


WOW.

I am not surprised by the A99 II. I see smart and ambitious managers at work there who listen to photographers.

The Sony A99 II like the Pentax K-1 are truly addressing generalists to the maximum of each company's capacities. Compared to these efforts Canon has again been holding back with their 5D IV. That is what I have been talking about and what I regard as actively crippling. I believe the omissions of the 5D IV weren't about pricepoint or incapacities but about internal strategies. Now or never: Reach out, Canon!

My gripes with the Sony A99II: I still much prefer optical viewfinder + on the old A99 (have been using it for a month), the liveview on the tilt-screen was ridiculous. It did not even have a gravity sensor and did not switch automatically into high-format when needed. (btw: The viewfinder blackouts were terrible as well but this sure has been solved now.) The fact that Canon has at hands the best live-view AF and at the same time the best flippy-concept makes it all the more frustrating that they have not implemented this combination into a fullframe body yet.

I do believe Canon would perhaps have integrated the flippy into the 5D IV but they did not want to combine it with 4K to protect the Cinema-Line. Accordingly, the 6D II will have a flippy, 5fps but no 4K. However I think that is a big mistake by Canon to hold back in that fashion. Not only videographers want more. Photographers do, too!

But what really is pushing things further at photokina to me comes from Fuji.
EVFviewfinder-wise the new Fuji GFX did what I had long been argumenting for and been dreaming of. Fuji managers it seems are not only listening but creating art themselves:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzR6f91AjWc

WOW WOW WOW

No need to get fussy here!!!
Guess I am in love.

 

[time123]

OK better think SERIOUSLY about SONY now......

http://thenewcamera.com/sony-a99-ii-announced-press-release-full-specification-and-more/


WOW.

I am not surprised by the A99 II. I see smart and ambitious managers at work there who listen to photographers.

The Sony A99 II like the Pentax K-1 are truly addressing generalists to the maximum of each company's capacities. Compared to these efforts Canon has again been holding back with their 5D IV. That is what I have been talking about and what I regard as actively crippling. I believe the omissions of the 5D IV weren't about pricepoint or incapacities but about internal strategies. Now or never: Reach out, Canon!

My gripes with the Sony A99II: I still much prefer optical viewfinder + on the old A99 (have been using it for a month), the liveview on the tilt-screen was ridiculous. It did not even have a gravity sensor and did not switch automatically into high-format when needed. (btw: The viewfinder blackouts were terrible as well but this sure has been solved now.) The fact that Canon has at hands the best live-view AF and at the same time the best flippy-concept makes it all the more frustrating that they have not implemented this combination into a fullframe body yet.

I do believe Canon would perhaps have integrated the flippy into the 5D IV but they did not want to combine it with 4K to protect the Cinema-Line. Accordingly, the 6D II will have a flippy, 5fps but no 4K. However I think that is a big mistake by Canon to hold back in that fashion. Not only videographers want more. Photographers do, too!

But what really is pushing things further at photokina to me comes from Fuji.
EVFviewfinder-wise the new Fuji GFX did what I had long been argumenting for and been dreaming of. Fuji managers it seems are not only listening but creating art themselves:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzR6f91AjWc

WOW WOW WOW

No need to get fussy here!!!
Guess I am in love.

Caution: another opinion disagreeing with Canon's 5D approach.

I'm inclined to agree here. After holding off getting a 5D3 for so long (and continuing to pile on the L's) then seeing the 5D3.5 5D4 I too am underwhelmed. If they released the current 5D4 after two and a half or three years after the 5D3 then I really wouldn't have much to say but after four and a half years I am a bit disappointed. The ever increasing release schedule for this line also makes me concerned. I get that they are "conservative" but I feel that at this point it is just an unimpressive excuse for having to do anything revolutionary.

But seriously; the same number of focus points as the 5D3 with hardly any additional spread? Or even basic things like hoarding the focus point exposure metering for only the 1DX II although most every other decent, modern non-Canon DSLR has it? Pretending that flip screens are only for amateurs and can only be made out of nineteenth century Fabergé eggs with no possible way to seal and secure it if you don't want to use it?

The lack of flip screen really gets me because when you only have seconds to capture that spontaneous shot of something that is low to the ground or higher up and your option is to fiddle around with wi-fi, get out your phone then try to get it to connect, properly balance the camera and the phone, deal with the camera to phone image screen lag, and then finally take the picture the subject or scene is long gone. Popping out a screen and pressing the shutter button works so much better than attempting to pull off the aforementioned feat in time or the blind spray and pray method. And even more so when you only have such a limited area of coverage with the focus points.

On the topic of Fuji and viewfinders oh how I adore the Fuji XPro2 hybrid optical/electronic viewfinder. Now that is some truly sweet tech that captures the best of both worlds. At least Canon added more information relayed through static images to the viewfinder in the 5D4.

I guess let's see what the 5D5 brings us in March 2022.

 

[d]

The lack of flip screen really gets me because when you only have seconds to capture that spontaneous shot of something that is low to the ground or higher up and your option is to fiddle around with wi-fi, get out your phone then try to get it to connect, properly balance the camera and the phone, deal with the camera to phone image screen lag, and then finally take the picture the subject or scene is long gone. Popping out a screen and pressing the shutter button works so much better than attempting to pull off the aforementioned feat in time or the blind spray and pray method. And even more so when you only have such a limited area of coverage with the focus points.

What are these numerous, low to the ground, once-in-a-lifetime, millisecond duration, Pulitzer-worthy shots that everyone is continually failing to capture with their 7D, 5D, and 1D bodies??? I just don't see flip screens being a make-or-break feature in a bodies such as these - give me the solidity and durability of an integrated, fixed screen any day.

 

[Ozarker]

The lack of flip screen really gets me because when you only have seconds to capture that spontaneous shot of something that is low to the ground or higher up and your option is to fiddle around with wi-fi, get out your phone then try to get it to connect, properly balance the camera and the phone, deal with the camera to phone image screen lag, and then finally take the picture the subject or scene is long gone. Popping out a screen and pressing the shutter button works so much better than attempting to pull off the aforementioned feat in time or the blind spray and pray method. And even more so when you only have such a limited area of coverage with the focus points.

What are these numerous, low to the ground, once-in-a-lifetime, millisecond duration, Pulitzer-worthy shots that everyone is continually failing to capture with their 7D, 5D, and 1D bodies??? I just don't see flip screens being a make-or-break feature in a bodies such as these - give me the solidity and durability of an integrated, fixed screen any day.

Where's your Pulitzer-worthy shot standing flat on your feet or laying in the mud?

Older guys find the flip useful. Older guys have most of the $$$$ to spend. 30 year old "Pros" are here today and gone tomorrow. Retired guys looking for hobbies spend the dough.

Besides, just because a screen can flip doesn't mean you have to flip it. In that case (not flipping), it is just as solid and durable as any other screen.

So yes, for older people with bad knees, backs, etc... a flip screen IS a make or break feature. Like it or not, Canon will go there soon on every top end model. The XXD's are just the laboratory.

Few people thought there would be a touch screen on a 1D or 5D. Now there is.

Weather sealing? Anything can be sealed.