EOS 5D Mark IV - the crippled generalist

[TWI by Dustin Abbott]

Some thoughts from this video are IMO tue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o43OfZ5rIbI

Well designed Workhorse, good upgrade, but in some aspects not on par with the compretitors

I thought this was a pretty well balanced take on it...though perhaps skewed a bit towards the video side.

It is relevant to compare it to the natural competitors from other manufacturers in a general sense.

For my personal work, however, what the A7R II or D810 are doing is irrelevant; I have 20 lenses in Canon mounts, flash units, triggers, extension tubes, and a whole whack of other gear all within the Canon ecosystem. I'm more concerned about whether it is a worthy upgrade for Canon shooters, and so far, my conclusion is that it definitely is. I'm really enjoying using the camera, and I'm discovering all kinds of meaningful ways that it is impacting my daily workflow as a photographer and a reviewer. It's too expensive, but when hasn't that been true of brand new Canon gear?

 

[Mikehit]

Business-numbers and marketing philosophies are made by people, generated by the plasticity of human behavior, not by some godly wisdom. Men has history, conviction and language. Men changes. Business changes.

In roman times, many servants claimed they were happy being servants. Some women in Switzerland until recently preferred not to be entitled to vote for parliament. However most modern day western women by today's standards would feel deprived if they were not entitled to vote.

Customers continue to learn to educate themselves. This is not the last word.

Every one of those is a fair point, and a valid warning against complacency. So is Canon being complacent and doomed to failure, are they overly cautious and not taking full advantage, or are they gauging the market right and not committing themselves to technologies that are headline grabbing but ultimately low priority for a vast majority of their users?

On the other side of the fence are the people buying the cameras justified in buying gear that is patently sub-standard or is it a case of 'if only they removed the scales from their eyes they would see the beauty and wonder that is full-on fully functioning ultimate video'. Are they aware of what their priorities are or are they wilfully blind?

 

[turtle]

It seems The Camera Store felt very lukewarm about the 5D IV and they are in the business of selling cameras. Others have offered more praise. None seem to have raved about it.

Opinions will surely remain divided and this thread is not going to change that; however, it is probably evident that both sides are actually right. They have to be. Think about it.

I do believe that had Canon offered more of what they could have in the camera it would have meant more thrilled potential customers. This may have had an adverse effect on sales in their Cine and 6D/1DX lines. I therefore agree with earlier comments suggesting that Canon's best business strategy is not necessarily one that will result in lots of happy consumers today. I there suggest that wise business decisions that leave lots of potential customers feeling jaded will only ever work in the short term. Upset people don't keep coming back for more. In fact, they will sometimes cut their nose off to spite their face out of protest. This seems to be where quite a few Canon customers are right now and these are people who have been waiting a very long time for the 5D IV. Even if you are one of the ones who thinks this camera is ace, its not hard to see that plenty of people don't feel the same way.

Lets remember, this is not just about the 5D IV. As others have said, it is about faith in the ethos of the company and whether it makes the right partner for years to come. It seems to me that more and more people are feeling a keen 'no' on that point. That cannot possibly be good for Canon. I'd love to know how sales are going, because maybe few customers really care? Maybe they are selling like hot cakes; however, I get the impression that this is not the case, even when early adoption should mean it should be. There seems to be a huge 'wait and see' attitude with many potential buyers looking to see what everyone else does and how the reviews are shaping up.

Does anyone have inside info regarding sales?

 

[scyrene]

It already is a reality that there are a significant number of potential buyers out there sharing my critisizm, be it photographers or videographers. Just search the web. This is not propaganda, these are all people who are really into what they are doing. Many are fealing let down by Canon. And to many pricing is not the primary concern.

Depends what you mean by 'significant'. Hencenpeople keep coming back to sales. People have been complaining for years. But it's had no tangible effect on sales. So we conclude their numbers weren't weren't 'significant'.

How do you know it had no tangible effects? Just because Canon is still selling it does not mean that they could not sell even better.

Maybe look up 'tangible'. Or if you prefer a different word - discernable, measurable, demonstrable. You are the one with the hypothesis, you ae the one who should try to find evidence for it.

 

[unfocused]

Readers of this forum will simply have to accept that there will always be contributors arguing like shareholders, not like photographers.

Indeed, unless one has so much money that they can afford to put all their cameras and lenses in a trash compactor and not think twice, one would be a fool NOT to think like a shareholder.

I have a ridiculous amount of money invested in Canon equipment. I chose to do so of my own free will and don't regret it one bit. My photography equipment gives me a lot of joy and for the past two years it has also helped me eat.

I could have just as easily chosen Nikon and doubt I would have any regrets with that decision either. But, a large part of that self-satisfaction comes from knowing that both companies have been in the business for nearly a century and one or the other has been the market leader for well over half a century.

I would never consider sinking all my resources into another brand simply because they don't have the track record and I have no confidence in their commitment to the market. I think like a shareholder because it is in my best interest and because in a sense, I am a shareholder, even though I don't own a penny of Canon or Nikon stock.

In my view, anyone who has managed to convince themselves that their success is limited by the state of today's equipment ought to find a new business or hobby.

 

[Hector1970]

While I do think Canon has to be careful to keep innovating and not just keep up I completely agree with sentiment that no photographer can complain that Canons cameras or lenses are limiting their photography. I'm like most people I want this bell and this whistle on the camera but I can't deny Canon make damn fine cameras. The button placement and menus are perfect. They meter well and focus accurately.
I too want Canon to survive as I'm heavily invested.
I like to be wowed too from time to time.
For Canon forum readers go take some photographs and go have real and not imaginary experiences of Canon gear.

 

[romanr74]

Yeah, except for the thousands of patents they file annually. Couldn't be anything innovative in there.

The number of patents filed is a very weak indicator (if an indicator at all) for the quality of innovation...

 

[romanr74]

But I also understand the business realities that are part of the reason Canon isn't making those products that I want. That seems to be too big a leap for some forum members, and so instead, people who see and understand reality are called simple-minded fanboys.

not quite, one more leap there: people who justify and defend every decision canon makes through that argument i consider fanboys.

 

[unfocused]

Yeah, except for the thousands of patents they file annually. Couldn't be anything innovative in there.

The number of patents filed is a very weak indicator (if an indicator at all) for the quality of innovation...

...except for every other indicator that's ever been tried. (Apologies to Winston Churchill.)

 

[Loswr]

Now I am done.

Yeah, except for the thousands of patents they file annually. Couldn't be anything innovative in there.

The number of patents filed is a very weak indicator (if an indicator at all) for the quality of innovation...

They are certainly a better indicator of innovation than your own words are an indicator of your veracity.

Habitual prevarication, lack of impulse control, there's a new section of DSM-5 that seems relevant.

 

[Orangutan]

But I also understand the business realities that are part of the reason Canon isn't making those products that I want. That seems to be too big a leap for some forum members, and so instead, people who see and understand reality are called simple-minded fanboys.

not quite, one more leap there: people who justify and defend every decision canon makes through that argument i consider fanboys.

I don't think anyone is justifying or defending every such decision, we're explaining it. I think everyone on this forum, myself and Neuro included, would appreciate large improvements in all components and features. The difference is that we accept the reality of business: money talks. Failure to recognize that is...inexplicable.

 

[Loswr]

But I also understand the business realities that are part of the reason Canon isn't making those products that I want. That seems to be too big a leap for some forum members, and so instead, people who see and understand reality are called simple-minded fanboys.

not quite, one more leap there: people who justify and defend every decision canon makes through that argument i consider fanboys.

I don't think anyone is justifying or defending every such decision, we're explaining it. I think everyone on this forum, myself and Neuro included, would appreciate large improvements in all components and features. The difference is that we accept the reality of business: money talks. Failure to recognize that is...inexplicable.

Exactly.

But some people, if you explain that the sun rises in the east or that most rocks – even very small ones – don't float, can't grasp those simple concepts, let alone the more complex business realities. Worse, and quite sad, are those who do understand those business concepts, but believe their own opinion trumps that objective reality.

 

[romanr74]

Now I am done.

Yeah, except for the thousands of patents they file annually. Couldn't be anything innovative in there.

The number of patents filed is a very weak indicator (if an indicator at all) for the quality of innovation...

They are certainly a better indicator of innovation than your own words are an indicator of your veracity.

Habitual prevarication, lack of impulse control, there's a new section of DSM-5 that seems relevant.

you realize that you are in a pattern of constant insulting and discrediting, do you? as i said in my post you quote on top, i'm done with the emotional argument with you. you seem not to be....

 

[romanr74]

But I also understand the business realities that are part of the reason Canon isn't making those products that I want. That seems to be too big a leap for some forum members, and so instead, people who see and understand reality are called simple-minded fanboys.

not quite, one more leap there: people who justify and defend every decision canon makes through that argument i consider fanboys.

I don't think anyone is justifying or defending every such decision, we're explaining it. I think everyone on this forum, myself and Neuro included, would appreciate large improvements in all components and features. The difference is that we accept the reality of business: money talks. Failure to recognize that is...inexplicable.

Exactly.

But some people, if you explain that the sun rises in the east or that most rocks – even very small ones – don't float, can't grasp those simple concepts, let alone the more complex business realities. Worse, and quite sad, are those who do understand those business concepts, but believe their own opinion trumps that objective reality.

you are argueing with imaginary posters on this one...

 

[romanr74]

But I also understand the business realities that are part of the reason Canon isn't making those products that I want. That seems to be too big a leap for some forum members, and so instead, people who see and understand reality are called simple-minded fanboys.

not quite, one more leap there: people who justify and defend every decision canon makes through that argument i consider fanboys.

I don't think anyone is justifying or defending every such decision, we're explaining it. I think everyone on this forum, myself and Neuro included, would appreciate large improvements in all components and features. The difference is that we accept the reality of business: money talks. Failure to recognize that is...inexplicable.

you don't have to explain it, it is understood. yet that doesn't imply the other end of the business equation must perfectly like it and shall not be allowed to express...

 

[Jack Douglas]

"I just wish I could focus entirely on my struggle with the elements when photographing rather than worrying about the shortcomings of my tools. I am not enjoying this!"

This statement says it all. What craftsman worries about the shortcomings of quality tools! It's not the tools that are the problem if there is one. As others have said if you can't get first rate photos with what's out there it might be time to find some other hobby or occupation.

Jack

 

[fussy III]

"I just wish I could focus entirely on my struggle with the elements when photographing rather than worrying about the shortcomings of my tools. I am not enjoying this!"

This statement says it all. What craftsman worries about the shortcomings of quality tools! It's not the tools that are the problem if there is one. As others have said if you can't get first rate photos with what's out there it might be time to find some other hobby or occupation.

Jack

Any craftsman striving for perfection does worry about the quality of tools, especially when they are neither on par with the possible nor with his intentions/visions etc.. If he doesn't strive for that perfecection, that will eventually show in his work. It will aquire that mediocre look of complacency.

I am photographing with a 5D II, a 70D and an A7s. I am not rich. But I know what I am looking for if I am to invest big money once more. And I have learned what makes a difference to the kind of work I am doing. Simple as that.

Assume what you want about my abilities. I am beyond that and do not feel inclined to engage in clock comparisons.

 

[vjlex]

Readers of this forum will simply have to accept that there will always be contributors arguing like shareholders, not like photographers.

Well-said. That's exactly how it comes across to me as well sometimes.

I want many things – a high MP 1-series body, a 600/4 DO, an 11-24 and TS-E 17 that take drop-in filters, bodies with built-in RT flash control, etc. I'm disappointed that Canon doesn't offer a small-as-possible full-featured FF mirrorless with a set of pancake primes with IS.

But I also understand the business realities that are part of the reason Canon isn't making those products that I want. That seems to be too big a leap for some forum members, and so instead, people who see and understand reality are called simple-minded fanboys.

Personally, the former half of this quote is more of the type of comments I like to hear. I think we can all acknowledge there is a reality that we don't always agree with. Particularly when it comes to what we personally would like in a camera. I don't think we've gathered on a rumor site to strictly discuss "reality." I personally like hearing people discuss what they think would make their photography equipment even better or what they think is lacking. It's also nice to hear what people do appreciate about what they currently have. I think there is room for both of these types of discussions here.

 

[romanr74]

Readers of this forum will simply have to accept that there will always be contributors arguing like shareholders, not like photographers.

Well-said. That's exactly how it comes across to me as well sometimes.

I want many things – a high MP 1-series body, a 600/4 DO, an 11-24 and TS-E 17 that take drop-in filters, bodies with built-in RT flash control, etc. I'm disappointed that Canon doesn't offer a small-as-possible full-featured FF mirrorless with a set of pancake primes with IS.

But I also understand the business realities that are part of the reason Canon isn't making those products that I want. That seems to be too big a leap for some forum members, and so instead, people who see and understand reality are called simple-minded fanboys.

Personally, the former half of this quote is more of the type of comments I like to hear. I think we can all acknowledge there is a reality that we don't always agree with. Particularly when it comes to what we personally would like in a camera. I don't think we've gathered on a rumor site to strictly discuss "reality." I personally like hearing people discuss what they think would make their photography equipment even better or what they think is lacking. It's also nice to hear what people do appreciate about what they currently have. I think there is room for both of these types of discussions here.

I perfectly agree!

 

[Mikehit]

Personally, the former half of this quote is more of the type of comments I like to hear. I think we can all acknowledge there is a reality that we don't always agree with. Particularly when it comes to what we personally would like in a camera. I don't think we've gathered on a rumor site to strictly discuss "reality." I personally like hearing people discuss what they think would make their photography equipment even better or what they think is lacking. It's also nice to hear what people do appreciate about what they currently have. I think there is room for both of these types of discussions here.

That is perfectly reasonable. What gets irritating for me is when these desires are then extended with statements like Canon are not doing it so are therefore doomed because of their incompetence when by all objective measures they do know what they are dong. They talk about how essential it is to incorporate the highest possible video quality while occasionally admitting it is a minority interest for stills photographers. And using emotive words like 'shameful' and other such hyperbole will get emotive responses.

It seems you like to hear comments about what other people want canon to add but don't like to hear comments about why some of believe it is not happening, and I think the latter is also interesting because it helps understand why Canon haven't done it and understand what their priorities actually are. Only then can you make a valid purchasing decision. You may say we (?) don't gather on a rumour site to discuss 'reality' but if that is the case you can scrap all discussion about how to use the gear and scrap all the galleries. You can delete 95% of the forum.