EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

[Loswr]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

...
I feel that the only way the 'new' 5DIV sensor tech would make it into a 6D2 would be after the 5DIV was out for at least a year to possibly half way through it's product cycle and that is too long a wait.

Canon don't have that luxury. They're being whipped by both Nikon and Sony in the sensor tech area.

Please describe the impact that, "...being whipped by both Nikon and Sony in the sensor tech area," has had on the ILC market share of Canon vs. Nikon and Sony. Also, please explain how the fact that Canon's mid-range APS-C 80D sensor delivers more low ISO DR than Nikon's flagship D5 sensor is consistent with 'being whipped' by Nikon in sensor tech.

I suppose those can be considered rhetorical requests, since it's unlikely you can explain either, much less cogently.

 

[ahsanford]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

Neuro, let's climb above the 'But Canon's sensors are poopy!' cacophonous din for a moment: will Canon nerf the 6D2 sensor compared to the 5D4 sensor like the way we expect they will with general features?

We know* that Canon will nerf higher-end 5D4 features like AF system, burst rate, buffer size, build quality, 4K possibly, etc. from getting to the 6D2.

And we know* the 6D2 will more likely get more 'consumer wishlist' features that the 5D4 does not. (We don't know exactly which ones, but if WiFi, GPS, and a tilty flippy screen showed up on the 6D2 it would not stun us.)

*With reasonable certainty based on prior offerings, prior segmentation, expected price, etc.

So the question stands: would Canon put the same sensor into two very different price point FF rigs? Or will they rely on consumer tropes of segmentation (i.e. pixel count) to more clearly delineate good/better/best like Sony or Nikon does?

Rephrasing my question in a snarky way: will the 6D2 outperform the 5D4 sensor in a single performance metric like the 6D1 did vs. the 5D3?

- A

 

[Loswr]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

will Canon nerf the 6D2 sensor compared to the 5D4 sensor like the way we expect they will with general features?

I don't think they'd necessarily do so...6D vs. 5DIII, 5DII vs. 1DsIII. Plenty of differentiators, different target markets.

 

[Don Haines]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

Neuro, let's climb above the 'But Canon's sensors are poopy!' cacophonous din for a moment: will Canon nerf the 6D2 sensor compared to the 5D4 sensor like the way we expect they will with general features?

We know* that Canon will nerf higher-end 5D4 features like AF system, burst rate, buffer size, build quality, 4K possibly, etc. from getting to the 6D2.

And we know* the 6D2 will more likely get more 'consumer wishlist' features that the 5D4 does not. (We don't know exactly which ones, but if WiFi, GPS, and a tilty flippy screen showed up on the 6D2 it would not stun us.)

*With reasonable certainty based on prior offerings, prior segmentation, expected price, etc.

So the question stands: would Canon put the same sensor into two very different price point FF rigs? Or will they rely on consumer tropes of segmentation (i.e. pixel count) to more clearly delineate good/better/best like Sony or Nikon does?

Rephrasing my question in a snarky way: will the 6D2 outperform the 5D4 sensor in a single performance metric like the 6D1 did vs. the 5D3?

- A

I think you are right about the differentiation of the feature sets, but I would expect a better sensor.

Every camera that comes out has had time to improve the sensor on the ones that came before. The DR might be a touch better, the QE might move up, well size might grow, noise might be a bit better...... They are constantly doing research and surely something must be better on the latest camera, unless they use the same sensor

 

[privatebydesign]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

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I think you are right about the differentiation of the feature sets, but I would expect a better sensor.

Every camera that comes out has had time to improve the sensor on the ones that came before. The DR might be a touch better, the QE might move up, well size might grow, noise might be a bit better...... They are constantly doing research and surely something must be better on the latest camera, unless they use the same sensor

I would expect the 6DII to have fewer MP than the 5DIV (e.g. 6D vs 5DIII) *but* the 6D's sensor has much better IQ when compared to the 5DIII (shadow noise is better but not as good as competition) so yes, you're right, it is not unreasonable to expect that 6DII's sensor should be better than the 5DIV.

Canon made the mistake of putting the same resolution sensor in the 5DII as the 1DsIII and arguably lost a lot of 1DsIII sales because of it (that the two cameras produce different color is a side issue.)

btw, there was a large period of time when there was little to no improvement in successive Canon sensors.

There is a very marked difference in IQ between the two though. Many who know would argue the low iso RAW capability of the 1DS MkIII was not bettered by Canon until the 5DS/R.

 

[dsut4392]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

Dear Canon,
6D2 with
1) articulated screen
2) DPAF
3) better AF
4) same or better sensor DR.
My credit card is ready and waiting

 

[privatebydesign]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

...
There is a very marked difference in IQ between the two though. Many who know would argue the low iso RAW capability of the 1DS MkIII was not bettered by Canon until the 5DS/R.

I've read a lot of comments from people saying that the 1DsIII just had better color (not necessarily noise, etc.)

I wonder then if the "S" represents not necessarily a better "sensor" but rather a different (or better?) color science that maps the raw colors from the sensor into colors.

Does that match your experience?

I would expect an old $8,000 camera to have better build quality than a new $2,500 camera, build quality in my experience doesn't mean 'built like a tank', anybody that thinks that hasn't dropped a 1 series and broken the castings. To me build quality means higher end components, better boards and ribbon cables, higher quality materials and manufacture.

I don't believe it is anything to do with the "color science that maps the raw colors from the sensor into colors", I believe it is the quality of the components and care and attention to manufacture that wring the last few percent of capability out of a tool, and that is why it cost what it did. It is easy to profile any camera to emulate the 1DS MkIII's colours but not the RAW editability.

Canon almost certainly knew when they built the 1DS MkIII that they were not going to replace it so they threw everything they could from the build quality department into it. Certainly I have found no compelling image quality reason to retire mine yet and I'd love a new toy :-(

 

[JohanCruyff]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

Dear Canon,
6D2 with
1) articulated screen
2) DPAF
3) better AF
4) same or better sensor DR.
My credit card is ready and waiting

+0.5
My credit card is ready, but will wait until the early adopters perform the usual "real world tests", possible problems are fixed by Canon and the street price at announcement lowers a bit.

 

[Loswr]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

The decision to merge the 1Ds/1D lines wasn't made for some time after the 1Ds was released (there was a follow on 1D Mark IV). At least there were no rumors of merging the 1Ds/1D lines at the time of the 1DsIII being released (that I recall.)

Your usual impeccable logic. : Yeah, Canon just makes this stuff up as they go along, there's no real plan or roadmap...

 

[jeffa4444]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

So the 5DIV is on sale and the boffins at Canon are hard at work on the 6D MKII. My prediction is this camera will take on the Nikon D750 with a similar spec. to the 80D but full-frame, at a price point of the out going 5D MKIII. Then Canon will slot-in a new entry level FF camera possibly a FF version of the 750/760D with 19 point AF at a similar price point to the current 6D. Both will have flippy screens.

 

[scyrene]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

All this innovation is leaving me dizzy. First two new video creator kits and now possibly a new nameplate somewhere next year. While other companies waste time improving sensors, Canon are leaving them far behind.

Do you believe that 'better sensors' help sell more consumer cameras or are required for professional photographers to capture award winning images? If either were true, no doubt Canon would focus their efforts in that area.

Not to mention, everyone agrees the sensors in the latest few models *have* been considerable improvements.

 

[3kramd5]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

Canon don't have that luxury. They're being whipped by ...Nikon ... in the sensor tech area.

By which metrics? The ability to select >400k iso in camera? A slight advantage in DR above 2500ISO?

Have they designed any sensors other than the D5's (which hardly "whips" the competing canons) recently?

 

[addola]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

I would like to have a swivel-tilty touch screen like the 80D. In fact, like many here, I want to have 80D with an FF sensor and maybe the ability to shoot 4K.

Also, add another SD slot. There's no reason Nikon's D7000's have dual slots, and my FF Canon 6D doesn't!

 

[Luds34]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

So the 5DIV is on sale and the boffins at Canon are hard at work on the 6D MKII. My prediction is this camera will take on the Nikon D750 with a similar spec. to the 80D but full-frame, at a price point of the out going 5D MKIII. Then Canon will slot-in a new entry level FF camera possibly a FF version of the 750/760D with 19 point AF at a similar price point to the current 6D. Both will have flippy screens.

Is this just an estimated guess? Or do you have some knowledge that points to this? Do you think there is enough market/product differentiation for a 6D mark II and a camera below it in the full frame space?

I think at first glance the idea of an entry level, even Rebel like full frame makes sense. But then when you start to account for the cost of full frame glass and I see it less so.

 

[JohanCruyff]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

So the 5DIV is on sale and the boffins at Canon are hard at work on the 6D MKII. My prediction is this camera will take on the Nikon D750 with a similar spec. to the 80D but full-frame, at a price point of the out going 5D MKIII. Then Canon will slot-in a new entry level FF camera possibly a FF version of the 750/760D with 19 point AF at a similar price point to the current 6D. Both will have flippy screens.

Is this just an estimated guess? Or do you have some knowledge that points to this? Do you think there is enough market/product differentiation for a 6D mark II and a camera below it in the full frame space?

I think at first glance the idea of an entry level, even Rebel like full frame makes sense. But then when you start to account for the cost of full frame glass and I see it less so.

Yes, there is room! Like the 6D was an updated 5D II, it is possible that the 8D will be an updated 6D (cheap full frame, D6x0 competitor) and that the 6D2 will be an updated 5D3 (intermediate full frame, D7x0 competitor). Who knows?

 

[Josh Denver]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

If Canon needs a new line it's a DSLR that's designed specifically for video users. As they're the most displeased from Canon right now.

A Low megapixel count (12-18) would give little to no crop, best high ISO performance, DPAF, C-LOG, and all XC10 features like peaking, waveform, zebras, great audio quality (with the top XLR module) 4K 10bit HDMI out (like XC10), and a tiltable LCD. If Canon doesn't want to imitate, they can leave it in an external look of a 5D body with a tilt screen and XLR connection on top, and decent mirror stills capability and ship it with a zucoto-quality LCD loup, again like XC10.

5DC is a new nameplate isn't it?

 

[3kramd5]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

If Canon needs a new line it's a DSLR that's designed specifically for video users.

I'm not a video guy, so forgive the question if it's a silly one, but why would video users want a mirror?

Aside from software and the tilt screen, what changes from the 1Dc would you like to see in an SLR designed specifically for video (as opposed to the shared design with the 1Dx)?

 

[GMCPhotographics]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

The decision to merge the 1Ds/1D lines wasn't made for some time after the 1Ds was released (there was a follow on 1D Mark IV). At least there were no rumors of merging the 1Ds/1D lines at the time of the 1DsIII being released (that I recall.)

Your usual impeccable logic. : Yeah, Canon just makes this stuff up as they go along, there's no real plan or roadmap...

I was just musing...wouldn't it be awesome of Canon designed a sensor that could scale it's resolution with it's FPS. They could make a 50mp 5 fps 1D series....that could scale the resolution down while bumping up the FPS, while the data through put would stay the same. Say a 20.2mp @ 14fps, 31.4mp @ 9fps and 56.6mp at 5 fps. THAT WOULD BE AWESOME!!!! and a true 1D/1Ds unification.

 

[Josh Denver]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

If Canon needs a new line it's a DSLR that's designed specifically for video users.

I'm not a video guy, so forgive the question if it's a silly one, but why would video users want a mirror?

Aside from software and the tilt screen, what changes from the 1Dc would you like to see in an SLR designed specifically for video (as opposed to the shared design with the 1Dx)?

The mirror is wanted for stills of course. If Canon wants to forgoe the whole concept of hybrid and go pure video then it would have an EVF and ND filter wheel in the mirror place.

But Canon is not so radical is changes/products.

There's a big market for sub 5000$ large sensor 4K canon with Clog and swivly screen and some firmware touches. It's the most missing DSLR from Canon's line I believe. For sports they gave 1Dxii, 5ds resolution, 5d all rounder, 6d/ii entry ff, then cheap sports 7dii, 80d all rounder, 750d entry, 1300D super entry. I mean nothing left but video shooters here right?

A FF/S35 EF Mount XC10? A 12-18mp 5DC?

The 1DC question is a great one. What we want that's not on the 1Dc:

-5D form factor/size and most of all price
-DPAF & touch
-Tilty LCD
-firmware stuff like peaking/zebras/waveform

we'd be some happy campers shooting video on Canon glass, using it as A cams to compete with the GH4/A7 place, and as B cams for C100/300s, etc

Canon really has no small B cam right now (a B cam has to match so C-LOG is paramount). Just the 1Dc which is far from small and xc20 which is a 1'' fixed lens package for doc/news.

 

[3kramd5]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & New DSLR Body in 2017

But a purpose built video camera has zero need for a mirror. On the other hand a purpose built video camera would have great live view framing, and thus be fully capable of producing stills.

A mirror seems antithetical to being designed specifically for video (unless of course the mirror funnels light to the sensor rather than away from it ). Without one, the reduced volume could be used for any number of things...improved cooling, internal storage, etc.