EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?

[Loswr]

Unlike the 7D, the 7DII will use a different sensor than the rest of the crop models, IMO.
So, for better image quality in a crop camera, we'll all be invited to spend more on the 7DII - that is, to jump lines.

The 7D had a new/different sensor than the rest of the crop bodies when it launched. That sensor was then used in the T2i/550D, then the 60D, etc.

Even so, I wouldn't expect much better IQ in a 7DII. It'll likely have 24 MP and IQ not all that much better than the current 18 MP APS-C or the 70D's sensor (or not really better at all). But it'll have better AF, likely 10 fps, maybe they'll unveil a new metering sensor with more zones (not the 1D X's), etc.

If you want substantially better IQ, Canon wants you to buy a FF camera.

 

[x-vision]

... I wouldn't expect much better IQ in a 7DII.

Canon could keep the same number of megapixels on the 7DII, while tweaking ISO/noise performance.
This will allow ISO/noise on the 7DII to be somewhere in the middle between the 70D/Rebels and the FF models.
So, still an improvement over the rest of the crop cameras - and yet not on the same level as FF.

We'll see. That's what I'm hoping for, at least.

If you want substantially better IQ, Canon wants you to buy a FF camera.

Agree. FF needs to remain the IQ king. They can risk that.

 

[Cariboucoach]

So who´s buying the 70d if the ISO performance is the same as 60d´s (or a small improvement)?

That would most likely be me. As the owner of an aging 40D, I would like to add video, some more pixels, and increased ISO from the 3200 max I have now. Even if the IQ isn't much better than the 60D, it is still better than the IQ of the 40D.

Budget will probably keep the 7D II out of reach. FF is also out of the question due to the added expense of getting new lenses, and a speedlite.

 

[pedro]

One situation that sure has changed since 7D came out is, that FF has become more affordable again due to the 6D. So if crop is not a decisive element because of range (birders, etc) the 6D surely represents a great tool for a bit more than a current crop body. e.g. the 6D discounts posted by CR guy. My two cents...

 

[Loswr]

One situation that has changed since 7D came out is FF has become more affordable again due to the 6D. So if crop is not a decisive affair because of range (birders) the 6D surely represents a great tool for a bit more than a current crop body. e.g. the 6D discounts posted by CR guy. My two cents...

With that in mind, one might expect a 7DII priced lower than the 6D...and with a reduced feature set to go along with that price. Still has to differentiate from the 70D, but fps and more MP would cover most of that.

 

[paul13walnut5]

One situation that has changed since 7D came out is FF has become more affordable again due to the 6D. So if crop is not a decisive affair because of range (birders) the 6D surely represents a great tool for a bit more than a current crop body. e.g. the 6D discounts posted by CR guy. My two cents...

With that in mind, one might expect a 7DII priced lower than the 6D...and with a reduced feature set to go along with that price. Still has to differentiate from the 70D, but fps and more MP would cover most of that.

Or it goes the other way and the 7D2 is more like a mini 1DX. Integrated grip. RT. Dual slots.
An enhanced specification dual pixel focus system?

 

[jrista]

One situation that has changed since 7D came out is FF has become more affordable again due to the 6D. So if crop is not a decisive affair because of range (birders) the 6D surely represents a great tool for a bit more than a current crop body. e.g. the 6D discounts posted by CR guy. My two cents...

With that in mind, one might expect a 7DII priced lower than the 6D...and with a reduced feature set to go along with that price. Still has to differentiate from the 70D, but fps and more MP would cover most of that.

I would think a better AF system would probably also be part of the differentiation. More FPS and better AF along with a competitive increase in MP would be the ideal differentiation to me. I don't think an integrated grip or better weather sealing or 1D X style buttons or anything like that are necessary to make an appropriate differentiation. The 19pt AF system definitely has its issues, though...and I would happily skip the 7D II if it ended up with the same 19pt system the original 7D had. It misfocuses too many times in any given sequence, roughly negating the additional 2fps lead it has over the 5D III.

It doesn't necessarily need to get the 61pt AF system, but something of the same precision, consistency, and accuracy of the 5D III's system would be a key differentiator for reach-hungry shooters looking for a companion to their FF.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

One situation that has changed since 7D came out is FF has become more affordable again due to the 6D. So if crop is not a decisive affair because of range (birders) the 6D surely represents a great tool for a bit more than a current crop body. e.g. the 6D discounts posted by CR guy. My two cents...

With that in mind, one might expect a 7DII priced lower than the 6D...and with a reduced feature set to go along with that price. Still has to differentiate from the 70D, but fps and more MP would cover most of that.

I would think a better AF system would probably also be part of the differentiation. More FPS and better AF along with a competitive increase in MP would be the ideal differentiation to me. I don't think an integrated grip or better weather sealing or 1D X style buttons or anything like that are necessary to make an appropriate differentiation. The 19pt AF system definitely has its issues, though...and I would happily skip the 7D II if it ended up with the same 19pt system the original 7D had. It misfocuses too many times in any given sequence, roughly negating the additional 2fps lead it has over the 5D III.

It doesn't necessarily need to get the 61pt AF system, but something of the same precision, consistency, and accuracy of the 5D III's system would be a key differentiator for reach-hungry shooters looking for a companion to their FF.

Yeah the 7D2 really needs to get the 5D3 AF. It does AI servo for surfing amazingly well but for soccer and such it seems closer to me to a 50D than a 1 series for sure. Single shot precision isn't bad, but it's actually not even quite to 5D2 levels and certainly not 5D3, so it's hardly all that amazing either.

I'd really think it would get more or less 5D3 AF (maybe the outer row of points won't fit?). You'd hope they didn't lock out the spot AF and zone AF from the 70D because they plan to re-use full 7D AF in the 7D2 again though....

I can't see the 7D2 getting an integrated grip (and I think that would cause a lot of complaining).

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

One situation that has changed since 7D came out is FF has become more affordable again due to the 6D. So if crop is not a decisive affair because of range (birders) the 6D surely represents a great tool for a bit more than a current crop body. e.g. the 6D discounts posted by CR guy. My two cents...

With that in mind, one might expect a 7DII priced lower than the 6D...and with a reduced feature set to go along with that price. Still has to differentiate from the 70D, but fps and more MP would cover most of that.

No way, this many years later and a few extra MP (considering the 70D density really is pretty high already) anda couple extra fps? I don't see that at all, they will get their goose cooked. It's gotta add 5D3-type AF and other stuff to the mix. Don't forget this body will also expected to see for like 2-4 more years!

 

[Loswr]

No way, this many years later and a few extra MP (considering the 70D density really is pretty high already) anda couple extra fps? I don't see that at all, they will get their goose cooked. It's gotta add 5D3-type AF and other stuff to the mix. Don't forget this body will also expected to see for like 2-4 more years!

Don't underestimate Canon's ability and willingness to handicap cameras. 24 MP with Dual Pixel CMOS AF (so they can later pass the 20 MP version to the Rebel/xxxD line and the M, then the 24 MP to the 80D), better AF but not 5DIII/1D X (say 31 AF points, each column on the 7D AF with an extra top/bottom point, but no more columns). Spot and Zone AF (yes, Virginia, they really left those out of the 70D so, like Santa Claus, they could give them back with the 7DII). Extras like direct RF control of the -RT Speedlites (a cool, hype-able new feature that oh-by-the-way would boost Speedlite sales). Just sayin'...

 

[jrista]

No way, this many years later and a few extra MP (considering the 70D density really is pretty high already) anda couple extra fps? I don't see that at all, they will get their goose cooked. It's gotta add 5D3-type AF and other stuff to the mix. Don't forget this body will also expected to see for like 2-4 more years!

Don't underestimate Canon's ability and willingness to handicap cameras.

*sigh* Sometimes I hate it when your right... (Of course, you, owning the top of the line 1D X, have it all already! )

24 MP with Dual Pixel CMOS AF (so they can later pass the 20 MP version to the Rebel/xxxD line and the M, then the 24 MP to the 80D), better AF but not 5DIII/1D X (say 31 AF points, each column on the 7D AF with an extra top/bottom point, but no more columns). Spot and Zone AF (yes, Virginia, they really left those out of the 70D so, like Santa Claus, they could give them back with the 7DII). Extras like direct RF control of the -RT Speedlites (a cool, hype-able new feature that oh-by-the-way would boost Speedlite sales). Just sayin'...

If it is 31pt AF that functions (precision, accuracy, consistency, speed) like the 5D III's 61pt AF, then I would be happy with that. I guess I would prefer a full high density reticulated AF system...I've found the 7D points, while large, still seem to have problems at the periphery of any given point (outside the box) and when the subject is directly between points. Tighter point spacing would help, I think. I'd love it if such a hypothetical 31pt system had the same kind of ultra high precision center vertical column of points like the 61pt system as well...but maybe that is asking Canon for too much.

(Although, given my more recent troubles with the 7Ds AF system...I am beginning to think it is just time to move to the 5D III and get into the FF game. The higher SNR and more accurate AF, even if it has lower spatial resolution than the 7D, should still do wonders for IQ... In which case, I really couldn't care less what the 7D II gets...)

 

[pj1974]

No way, this many years later and a few extra MP (considering the 70D density really is pretty high already) anda couple extra fps? I don't see that at all, they will get their goose cooked. It's gotta add 5D3-type AF and other stuff to the mix. Don't forget this body will also expected to see for like 2-4 more years!

Don't underestimate Canon's ability and willingness to handicap cameras. 24 MP with Dual Pixel CMOS AF (so they can later pass the 20 MP version to the Rebel/xxxD line and the M, then the 24 MP to the 80D), better AF but not 5DIII/1D X (say 31 AF points, each column on the 7D AF with an extra top/bottom point, but no more columns). Spot and Zone AF (yes, Virginia, they really left those out of the 70D so, like Santa Claus, they could give them back with the 7DII). Extras like direct RF control of the -RT Speedlites (a cool, hype-able new feature that oh-by-the-way would boost Speedlite sales). Just sayin'...

Indeed, Canon has a history where it's handicapped cameras, particularly via firmware limitations, and/or some improvements that could have been incorporated (at not too much cost). Some examples spring to mind: 400D, 30D, 60D, etc.

The 7D came out and I thought Canon were being 'generous' with the feature list - and I still think they were. I love my 7D - though I'm aware there could have been some improvements made.... but I chose it early - and haven't looked back.

I do wonder if the 'groundbreaking' rumours we started hearing some time ago that would be in the 7DmkII is actually the dual pixel AF of the 70D? (ie if 'the rumour spreaders' had the Canon body model name / number wrong?)

The 70D's ISO ability looks close, and probably a bit superior to Canon's previous APS-C 18MP sensors. But it's not 'ground-breakingly' better. I would be surprised if there is a significantly better new sensor (still APS-C) in the 7DmkII (which I believe is already close to final production). I do expect the 7DmkII to maybe have a different sensor to the 70D. If it does, I hope it's somewhat better on ISO than the 7D. (I don't need more than 18MP btw).

I believe the main features separating the 7DmkII - from both the 7D and 70D - will include:
- feature set, such as GPS, wireless, remote flash control
- FPS (eg 10?)
- build quality & shutter durability
- improved optical AF (as the 70D has the 7D's AF, the 7DmkII will have improvements in that space)
- an articulated screen (the 7D's is 'fixed')
- probably improved LiveView AF too.... ie even faster, better implemented dual pixel AF than the 70D has

Looking forward to what the 7DmkII will be. I must say I'm impressed with what Canon has done with the 70D, and I will probably go to a store and try one (instore) out of curiousity!

Paul

 

[Marsu42]

Oh, look, it's good ol' Paul in [CR] dream land :-> (no, really, I think your posts are among the most valuable here):

- feature set, such as GPS, wireless, remote flash control

... my 2ct: built-in rt controller won't happen unless Yongnuo has a built-in radio speedlite system (not yet) and even then Canon would have to forced at gunpoint to give up $500 sales for a 600rt as a master. The idea is that enthusiasts are ok with optical fallback control via the pop up flash, and if you venture further into flash photography you just have to cough up the $$$ to be able to use the nice 600rt display or the in-camera rt control rather than some awkward 3rd party external controller.

I also don't see gps in a pro/sturdy body, of course it could be done but it's rather an amateur feature given the advantages of external loggers and Canon would admit they'd just left out the 6d flash and gps from the 70d for marketing and no real tech reason.

- as the 70D has the 7D's AF, the 7DmkII will have improvements in that space

... not quite, this is a spec sheet fallacy: the 70d af system has just the same number of af points, knowing Canon I doubt they'll confuse simple xxd customers with too much customization in the fw plus lacking a dedicated af processor it might well be the 70d is slower & has worse tracking than the 7d1!

- an articulated screen (the 7D's is 'fixed')

... but that would half the number of potential 7d2 customers after years of dogmatism that a swivel screen isn't "pro", cannot be properly sealed and will break off the camera just by looking at it :-> ... as a 60d owner though, I know how handy that is for video, tripod & awkward angles.

 

[whothafunk]

how do you know 70D lacks dedicated AF processor? canon didnt say that 70D doesnt have one, neither that it does. when 7D was announced, they didnt mention dedicated AF processor either, noone knew it has one until it was released

 

[paul13walnut5]

how do you know 70D lacks dedicated AF processor? canon didnt say they 70D doesnt have it, neither that it does. when 7D was announced, they didnt mention dedicated AF processor either, noone knew it has one until it was released

The most valid thing I've read on this thread so far.

Nobody knows until it is released.

 

[Chosenbydestiny]

What I don't get is why it would need a dedicated processor when the digic 5+ is said to be 17x faster than digic 4. Still very much noticeably faster than dual digic 4. I know it's more megapixels, but wouldn't that at least shoulder the performance loss from lacking a dedicated processor?

 

[Marsu42]

What I don't get is why it would need a dedicated processor when the digic 5+ is said to be 17x faster than digic 4. Still very much noticeably faster than dual digic 4. I know it's more megapixels, but wouldn't that at least shoulder the performance loss from lacking a dedicated processor?

You're all correct - we don't know for sure, but then again this is a rumor forum :->

The smaller 70d size vs. 7d1 might indicate that they've only got one cpu on the pcb ... but I personally also think that the digic5 could take the af load, question is if the fw is meant to use it, after all as written above Canon has a history of crippling lesser camera bodies. In every case I'm doubtful if the fw has as many tracking options as the 7d1, but we'll see...

 

[paul13walnut5]

What I don't get is why it would need a dedicated processor when the digic 5+ is said to be 17x faster than digic 4. Still very much noticeably faster than dual digic 4. I know it's more megapixels, but wouldn't that at least shoulder the performance loss from lacking a dedicated processor?

Faster than dual digic 4 perhaps, but on the 7D the dual digics process the data from the image chip.

There is a third, seperate processor that deals exclusively with AF.

It is not clear if the 70D has or needs this. Certainly the 5D3 has a seperate (although unspecified, unless anybody can cast some light on it) processor exclusively for AF, and it also has a main digic 5+ image processor. Granted it's a much more sophisticated AF system, but it hints that a digic 5+ on it's own wasn't sufficient.

It's all conjecture. But when it comes to AF performance, it rather appears that no matter the image processing, a seperate AF processor is desirable.

 

[whothafunk]

the 5D3 does have a dedicated AF processor, like the 7D and the 1Dx. thats why these cameras have superior AF.

http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/inside_canon_eos_5d_mark_iii.do

if you expand the AF section, about half way down:

Achieving this speed and accuracy in the AF algorithm requires a large amount of focus data to be processed quickly. This has been done by the use of distributed processing where both a dedicated AF processor and a camera CPU process data. The dedicated AF processor is four times faster than the one found in the EOS-1D Mark IV.

'a camera CPU' must refer to the sole DIGIC5+.

 

[tron]

the 5D3 does have a dedicated AF processor, like the 7D and the 1Dx. thats why these cameras have superior AF.

http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/inside_canon_eos_5d_mark_iii.do

if you expand the AF section, about half way down:

Achieving this speed and accuracy in the AF algorithm requires a large amount of focus data to be processed quickly. This has been done by the use of distributed processing where both a dedicated AF processor and a camera CPU process data. The dedicated AF processor is four times faster than the one found in the EOS-1D Mark IV.

'a camera CPU' must refer to the sole DIGIC5+.

Thanks for the link. Really interesting info although some of it seems , let's say: a little "optimistic"

The camera also features a robust dust-proof and drip-proof construction, where body panels interlock rather than adjoin, and all seams, buttons and dials are provided with secure rubber sealing. The protection provided by the design and sealing is equivalent to that of the EOS-1N film camera; the weather-sealing standard by which other professional cameras were judged.