EOS 70D a New Benchmark in ISO Performance?

[carlosmeldano]

the 5D3 does have a dedicated AF processor, like the 7D and the 1Dx. thats why these cameras have superior AF.

the 70D indeed has at least one dedicated AF processor... for CMOS AF.

check the interview here: http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2013/eos_70d_interview_with_developers.shtml, page 4, top of right column.

Miyanari: “With the AF signal of Dual Pixel CMOS AF, there was twice the amount of information as the number of effective pixels that lined the sensor. This process could be performed with just the imaging processor; however, we believed it would be too much to ask, so a dedicated IC was developed. By establishing an IC for the role of preparation so the imaging processor could process one after the other, high-speed, optimized processing was made possible."


so, the digic 5+ is capable of handling such that computing capacity, I don't think that a separate AF processor should be used, but if they use one for CMOS AF, they might applied the other for the conventional AF.

 

[Loswr]

Oh, look, it's good ol' Paul in [CR] dream land :-> (no, really, I think your posts are among the most valuable here):

- feature set, such as GPS, wireless, remote flash control

... my 2ct: built-in rt controller won't happen unless Yongnuo has a built-in radio speedlite system (not yet) and even then Canon would have to forced at gunpoint to give up $500 sales for a 600rt as a master. The idea is that enthusiasts are ok with optical fallback control via the pop up flash, and if you venture further into flash photography you just have to cough up the $$$ to be able to use the nice 600rt display or the in-camera rt control rather than some awkward 3rd party external controller.

Ok, except in the days before thr -RT system came out, there was only optical control...while Canon started Master capability with the popup flash in the 7D, they rolled it down to the xxD line and eventually put capability in a Rebel body.

I bet we'll see RT master in the 7DII...

 

[shtfmeister]

One situation that has changed since 7D came out is FF has become more affordable again due to the 6D. So if crop is not a decisive affair because of range (birders) the 6D surely represents a great tool for a bit more than a current crop body. e.g. the 6D discounts posted by CR guy. My two cents...

With that in mind, one might expect a 7DII priced lower than the 6D...and with a reduced feature set to go along with that price. Still has to differentiate from the 70D, but fps and more MP would cover most of that.

I would think a better AF system would probably also be part of the differentiation. More FPS and better AF along with a competitive increase in MP would be the ideal differentiation to me. I don't think an integrated grip or better weather sealing or 1D X style buttons or anything like that are necessary to make an appropriate differentiation. The 19pt AF system definitely has its issues, though...and I would happily skip the 7D II if it ended up with the same 19pt system the original 7D had. It misfocuses too many times in any given sequence, roughly negating the additional 2fps lead it has over the 5D III.

It doesn't necessarily need to get the 61pt AF system, but something of the same precision, consistency, and accuracy of the 5D III's system would be a key differentiator for reach-hungry shooters looking for a companion to their FF.

before you hate on the 19pt auto focus to much which lenses are you using
read this http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/07/autofocus-reality-part-3a-canon-lenses

 

[Marsu42]

I bet we'll see RT master in the 7DII...

I'll bookmark this and remind you ... I'm sure Canon will add rt master capability sometime, but I bet this won't be the sports/high-fps 7d2 (can your flash do 10fps?) but the 5d4 or the next high-mp premium 1d.

Think of the profit they make: the st-e3 controller sells for ~€300, but most likely consists of parts that you can buy for less than €30 in the electronics discount shop next door :-o

 

[jrista]

One situation that has changed since 7D came out is FF has become more affordable again due to the 6D. So if crop is not a decisive affair because of range (birders) the 6D surely represents a great tool for a bit more than a current crop body. e.g. the 6D discounts posted by CR guy. My two cents...

With that in mind, one might expect a 7DII priced lower than the 6D...and with a reduced feature set to go along with that price. Still has to differentiate from the 70D, but fps and more MP would cover most of that.

I would think a better AF system would probably also be part of the differentiation. More FPS and better AF along with a competitive increase in MP would be the ideal differentiation to me. I don't think an integrated grip or better weather sealing or 1D X style buttons or anything like that are necessary to make an appropriate differentiation. The 19pt AF system definitely has its issues, though...and I would happily skip the 7D II if it ended up with the same 19pt system the original 7D had. It misfocuses too many times in any given sequence, roughly negating the additional 2fps lead it has over the 5D III.

It doesn't necessarily need to get the 61pt AF system, but something of the same precision, consistency, and accuracy of the 5D III's system would be a key differentiator for reach-hungry shooters looking for a companion to their FF.

before you hate on the 19pt auto focus to much which lenses are you using
read this http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/07/autofocus-reality-part-3a-canon-lenses

LOL. Its not the lens. I am using the EF 600mm f/4 L IS II...can't get much better than that.

 

[Loswr]

Think of the profit they make: the st-e3 controller sells for ~€300, but most likely consists of parts that you can buy for less than €30 in the electronics discount shop next door :-o

That's ok - they'll sell a lot more 7DIIs than ST-E3s, so they'll just build that profit into the 7DII price...

 

[pj1974]

Oh, look, it's good ol' Paul in [CR] dream land :-> (no, really, I think your posts are among the most valuable here):

- feature set, such as GPS, wireless, remote flash control

... my 2ct: built-in rt controller won't happen unless Yongnuo has a built-in radio speedlite system (not yet) and even then Canon would have to forced at gunpoint to give up $500 sales for a 600rt as a master. The idea is that enthusiasts are ok with optical fallback control via the pop up flash, and if you venture further into flash photography you just have to cough up the $$$ to be able to use the nice 600rt display or the in-camera rt control rather than some awkward 3rd party external controller.

I also don't see gps in a pro/sturdy body, of course it could be done but it's rather an amateur feature given the advantages of external loggers and Canon would admit they'd just left out the 6d flash and gps from the 70d for marketing and no real tech reason.

- as the 70D has the 7D's AF, the 7DmkII will have improvements in that space

... not quite, this is a spec sheet fallacy: the 70d af system has just the same number of af points, knowing Canon I doubt they'll confuse simple xxd customers with too much customization in the fw plus lacking a dedicated af processor it might well be the 70d is slower & has worse tracking than the 7d1!

- an articulated screen (the 7D's is 'fixed')

... but that would half the number of potential 7d2 customers after years of dogmatism that a swivel screen isn't "pro", cannot be properly sealed and will break off the camera just by looking at it :-> ... as a 60d owner though, I know how handy that is for video, tripod & awkward angles.

Thanks Marsu42... I appreciate yr reply and overall posts too.

1. I think that RT flash control will be incorporated in the 7DmkII (not just 'hoping'). To me it seems a logical step, as master flash control also used / introduced to APS-C via the 7D - as neuro also noted. Those in the market for a 7DmkII would possibly be 'tempted' with suitable / matched flashes.

2. While GPS wasn't incorporated in some more 'pro' bodies - and I'm aware some countries or locations restrict certain cameras and/or with GPS devices - I think that the 7D isn't "pro" enough to be affected. Time will tell.. I see your point on this, though. GPS not a huge issue for me either way (as long as I can switch toggle between on / off easily to save battery power)

3. AF - There was wording from Canon (can't find it now, as I'm in a break at work) that indicated that the 70D's AF was the 'AF system' borrowed from 7D. Not 'just' the 19 (cross type) AF points. Then again, it didn't specify it was the 'whole AF system'. The 7D has some additional AF settings over the 70D (eg AF point assist).

I believe much or the hardware and the algorithms are the same as the 7D (including the 70D appearing to have a dedicated AF processor - like the 7D does - as it appears from some posts). But yes, I expect there may be some differences. It would be good if the 70D actually has some improvements - eg maybe tweaked algorithms to increase AF accuracy & consistency shot to shot when AF is 'close'.

Another website did extensive testing of 7D's AF accuracy / consistency - in both Optical (Phase) & Live View. The 7D was rated as good & a definite improvement over the XXD line, but not as consistent as 5DmkIII or 1DX. I hope the 7DmkII gains something similar in this regard to the 5DmkIII - and perhaps a few extra AF points - as was suggested - an extra top / bottom AF pt for each column... (me like!)

I must say after learning and setting the 7D's AF for certain scenarios, I've captured many great shots - including BIF with my 7D that I couldn't get with any other Canon APS-C bodies before it. I think improved AF is going to be a feature of 7DmkII.

4. Swivel screen - I enjoy macro photography a lot, and an articulated screen can be invaluable here, especially when taking photos at ground level. Also, at times for events / crowds / creativity - an articulated screen can be so useful (as well as for video, though I don't do much video at all).
Also, if they have a similar menu as the 7D (but with touch-screen possibilities, like the 70D seems to have implemented well) - that would be nice!

5. Additionally, I hope they stick with the 3 custom modes on the dial. We really can get rid of any 'auto' modes... please! Maybe for attracting 'entry level users' it will stay there, but the 'creative auto' it really can go (and there is no need for any 'scene modes') and instead we get an additional 1 or 2 custom modes on the dial... I would LOVE 5 custom options. I can see and understand the 70D is targetted differently with more 'beginner' auto / help options to the 7D.

Let's see....

Paul

 

[Marsu42]

1. I think that RT flash control will be incorporated in the 7DmkII (not just 'hoping').

Ok, now I'm really keen to see if I was too doubtful of Canon (who? me?) :->

Another website did extensive testing of 7D's AF accuracy / consistency

Imho more precison/consistency in the 7d2 is a must, I know the lensrentals reviews, and they write the 6d/5d2 af type doesn't use the enhanced precision of Canon's latest lenses like the 70-300L and 24-70L2, so to boost sales and torpedo 3rd party manufacturers it's likely Canon will do something about it.

4. Swivel screen - I enjoy macro photography a lot, and an articulated screen can be invaluable here, especially when taking photos at ground level.

I see some people going ballistic, and I don't want to raise my struggle with buying the 6d again, but if I do I will *curse* Canon every single time I lie flat in the cold and wet mud in late autumn when doing macros of mushrooms... this is really an issue for me, I surprised so many people don't see the swivel screen as a useful feature.

 

[rpt]

I see some people going ballistic, and I don't want to raise my struggle with buying the 6d again, but if I do I will *curse* Canon every single time I lie flat in the cold and wet mud in late autumn when doing macros of mushrooms... this is really an issue for me, I surprised so many people don't see the swivel screen as a useful feature.

+1
And I understand there could be a possible weatherproofing nightmare for the design and manufacturing departments in Canon. I just wish that could be an option...

 

[jrista]

I see some people going ballistic, and I don't want to raise my struggle with buying the 6d again, but if I do I will *curse* Canon every single time I lie flat in the cold and wet mud in late autumn when doing macros of mushrooms... this is really an issue for me, I surprised so many people don't see the swivel screen as a useful feature.

+1
And I understand there could be a possible weatherproofing nightmare for the design and manufacturing departments in Canon. I just wish that could be an option...

I wonder if they could make the screen wireless, using some kind of near field communications to avoid the normal energy drain of wireless devices. They could then just attach the screen via a hinge (maybe a replaceable one in case it breaks) without actually having to compromise weather sealing.

 

[rpt]

I see some people going ballistic, and I don't want to raise my struggle with buying the 6d again, but if I do I will *curse* Canon every single time I lie flat in the cold and wet mud in late autumn when doing macros of mushrooms... this is really an issue for me, I surprised so many people don't see the swivel screen as a useful feature.

+1
And I understand there could be a possible weatherproofing nightmare for the design and manufacturing departments in Canon. I just wish that could be an option...

I wonder if they could make the screen wireless, using some kind of near field communications to avoid the normal energy drain of wireless devices. They could then just attach the screen via a hinge (maybe a replaceable one in case it breaks) without actually having to compromise weather sealing.

Darn it! Now I will have to wait for the 7D3

 

[Skirball]

1. I think that RT flash control will be incorporated in the 7DmkII (not just 'hoping').

Ok, now I'm really keen to see if I was too doubtful of Canon (who? me?) :->

[/quote]

+1 to the will be incorporated group. It's the next logical step in flash, which by itself says nothing, but adding RF control of flashes to the camera pigeon holes the consumer into buying Canon RF flashes; which at the moment consists of a $600 flash. Win for Canon. They won't care about loss of ST-E3 sales when people are plunking down $2k+ for 7DIIs.

 

[Skirball]

1. I think that RT flash control will be incorporated in the 7DmkII (not just 'hoping').

Ok, now I'm really keen to see if I was too doubtful of Canon (who? me?) :->

+1 to the will be incorporated group. It's the next logical step in flash, which by itself says nothing, but adding RF control of flashes to the camera pigeon holes the consumer into buying Canon RF flashes; which at the moment consists of a $600 flash. Win for Canon. They won't care about loss of ST-E3 sales when people are plunking down $2k+ for 7DIIs and a couple more $k for a fleet of flashes.

 

[jrista]

I see some people going ballistic, and I don't want to raise my struggle with buying the 6d again, but if I do I will *curse* Canon every single time I lie flat in the cold and wet mud in late autumn when doing macros of mushrooms... this is really an issue for me, I surprised so many people don't see the swivel screen as a useful feature.

+1
And I understand there could be a possible weatherproofing nightmare for the design and manufacturing departments in Canon. I just wish that could be an option...

I wonder if they could make the screen wireless, using some kind of near field communications to avoid the normal energy drain of wireless devices. They could then just attach the screen via a hinge (maybe a replaceable one in case it breaks) without actually having to compromise weather sealing.

Darn it! Now I will have to wait for the 7D3

Ha! Yeah, I guess its unlikely such an innovation would actually find its way into the 7D II, given its already in field testing. Oh well....it would have been a pretty cool feature.

 

[tron]

I see some people going ballistic, and I don't want to raise my struggle with buying the 6d again, but if I do I will *curse* Canon every single time I lie flat in the cold and wet mud in late autumn when doing macros of mushrooms... this is really an issue for me, I surprised so many people don't see the swivel screen as a useful feature.

+1
And I understand there could be a possible weatherproofing nightmare for the design and manufacturing departments in Canon. I just wish that could be an option...

I wonder if they could make the screen wireless, using some kind of near field communications to avoid the normal energy drain of wireless devices. They could then just attach the screen via a hinge (maybe a replaceable one in case it breaks) without actually having to compromise weather sealing.

Darn it! Now I will have to wait for the 7D3

Ha! Yeah, I guess its unlikely such an innovation would actually find its way into the 7D II, given its already in field testing. Oh well....it would have been a pretty cool feature.

Well, I myself prefer a camera without a swivel screen (at least for the 99% of the time).

BUT, I understand why someone would need this. May I suggest this thread ?

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=15866.0

I know it is probably too much for just camera with a swivel screen but maybe it could be of help for the cases where a swivel screen is an absolute must...

 

[jrista]

I see some people going ballistic, and I don't want to raise my struggle with buying the 6d again, but if I do I will *curse* Canon every single time I lie flat in the cold and wet mud in late autumn when doing macros of mushrooms... this is really an issue for me, I surprised so many people don't see the swivel screen as a useful feature.

+1
And I understand there could be a possible weatherproofing nightmare for the design and manufacturing departments in Canon. I just wish that could be an option...

I wonder if they could make the screen wireless, using some kind of near field communications to avoid the normal energy drain of wireless devices. They could then just attach the screen via a hinge (maybe a replaceable one in case it breaks) without actually having to compromise weather sealing.

Darn it! Now I will have to wait for the 7D3

Ha! Yeah, I guess its unlikely such an innovation would actually find its way into the 7D II, given its already in field testing. Oh well....it would have been a pretty cool feature.

Well, I myself prefer a camera without a swivel screen (at least for the 99% of the time).

BUT, I understand why someone would need this. May I suggest this thread ?

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=15866.0

I know it is probably too much for just camera with a swivel screen but maybe it could be of help for the cases where a swivel screen is an absolute must...

Hah, nice. I actually installed Lightroom 4.4 on my Microsoft Surface Pro, so I can tether it out in the field. Works either as a big screen for view camera-esque functionality for landscapes, or a nice big highly detailed screen for macro work (of which I am still exploring...I really need to get a macro rail, and maybe some kind of mounting arm like in the link you shared). I will say, it is really nice being able to use LR4.4 in the field on a high res 1080p screen...best thing Microsoft ever did!

 

[Marsu42]

Hah, nice. I actually installed Lightroom 4.4 on my Microsoft Surface Pro, so I can tether it out in the field.

Problem is: Magic Lantern in-camera beats any tethering, or I'd carry around my laptop for tethering... that's why want a swivel screen & ml :-\

 

[jrista]

Hah, nice. I actually installed Lightroom 4.4 on my Microsoft Surface Pro, so I can tether it out in the field.

Problem is: Magic Lantern in-camera beats any tethering, or I'd carry around my laptop for tethering... that's why want a swivel screen & ml :-\

How can ML beat a 10.6" high density screen?

 

[Marsu42]

Hah, nice. I actually installed Lightroom 4.4 on my Microsoft Surface Pro, so I can tether it out in the field.

Problem is: Magic Lantern in-camera beats any tethering, or I'd carry around my laptop for tethering... that's why want a swivel screen & ml :-\

How can ML beat a 10.6" high density screen?

By weight, size and price :-> but we're probably talking of different usage scenarios here: All I'd want to do with tethered shooting (with a cable mind you, wifi for wildlife is another thing) is focus stacking, intervalometer and generally automating the camera - all which I can do by using ml as it is or scripting it or adding C code.

 

[pj1974]

4. Swivel screen - I enjoy macro photography a lot, and an articulated screen can be invaluable here, especially when taking photos at ground level.

I see some people going ballistic, and I don't want to raise my struggle with buying the 6d again, but if I do I will *curse* Canon every single time I lie flat in the cold and wet mud in late autumn when doing macros of mushrooms... this is really an issue for me, I surprised so many people don't see the swivel screen as a useful feature.

Hah, nice. I actually installed Lightroom 4.4 on my Microsoft Surface Pro, so I can tether it out in the field.

Problem is: Magic Lantern in-camera beats any tethering, or I'd carry around my laptop for tethering... that's why want a swivel screen & ml :-\

How can ML beat a 10.6" high density screen?

By weight, size and price :-> but we're probably talking of different usage scenarios here: All I'd want to do with tethered shooting (with a cable mind you, wifi for wildlife is another thing) is focus stacking, intervalometer and generally automating the camera - all which I can do by using ml as it is or scripting it or adding C code.

Yes, indeed horses for courses. I see a swivel screen as a different level of usability and application than any tethering or 'remote control' of a DSLR. There are so many times I want to take photos and not have to tether or set up any external device. There are also times when I don't use a tripod, and a swivel screen is helpful.

In my initial post (seen copied at the top of this post) about hoping that the 7DmkII would get a full articulated screen (aka 'swivel screen') - just like the 70D has, was because I see this as a huge benefit at times (though not 'all times'), and I believe that with careful engineering / production a sturdy, functional and durable screen can be part of a 'pro' or 'semi-pro' body, and thus not of any detriment.

I think the 70D is a well spec'd body for Canon's xxD line (having features, eg AF, FPS, AFMA, etc that I believe all former Canon xxD bodies should have had). And with the 70D now having dual pixel LiveView AF, that's a real added bonus.

Looking forward to a 7DmkII with even better specs than the 70D... and hopefully an articulated screen which will assist me in getting some shots that are more difficult without.

Cheers

Paul