Eos7D mk2, How disappointed will you be if . . .?

[Ivan Muller]

it has the same sensor as the Eos70D but with just more bells & whistles?

I have a sneaky feeling that maybe its going to be the same image quality as the 70D just more robust, full frame viewfinder, gazillion frames per second, wifi, gps and class leading video...So just how disappointed will you be if that is the case?

Lets face it the Sony sensors are pretty good, if not class leading, probably as good as it's going to get at the moment, so just why will Canon have such better sensor technology as Sony's? Nothing in the recent history of Canon sensor technology suggests otherwise...

If, and its a big if, they bring out a ID mkIV size sensor it will be great, but maybe its also an indication that they just could not squeeze out anymore image quality with their R&D at present....which begs the question then why they don't just buy Sony sensors? Would anybody mind a Sony sensors in Eos bodies?

 

[tron]

I will not be disappointed because ... I will not buy it anyway ;D

I keep my disappointment for 5DMkIV ;D

 

[Loswr]

it has the same sensor as the Eos70D but with just more bells & whistles?

I have a sneaky feeling that maybe its going to be the same image quality as the 70D just more robust, full frame viewfinder, gazillion frames per second, wifi, gps and class leading video...So just how disappointed will you be if that is the case?

Neither surprised nor disappointed. It seems pretty likely, to me. If there's a significant IQ boost, I might be tempted to get one as a backup body...but the kind of IQ boost I'm talking about likely defies the laws of physics, so I'm not holding my breath.

My friend at Canon confirmed that there is something NEW about this sensor.

Now that sounds like a reliable source. My friend at Canon said nothing of the sort... :

Still, keep in mind that Canon uses the term 'newly designed sensor' quite frequently. For example, there was Hybrid CMOS then Hybrid CMOS II, the latter being a 'NEW' sensor, but from an IQ standpoint there was no difference between the two or the myriad of other 'new' 18 MP APS-C predecessors. So, with the 7D we may see DPAF II. Woot.

 

[Ivan Muller]

But will the 'something new' translate into something with much better image quality?

 

[Dylan777]

I will not be disappointed because ... I will not buy it anyway ;D

I keep my disappointment for 5DMkIV ;D

I will save that for X ii ;D

 

[tomscott]

I think it would be disappointing because even if it is a dual digic 5 they have been out on the market for 2+ years with the 1DX. Have the other 'bells and whistles' really needed the time in R&D as the 7D has been sitting on the shelf for so long. If this is so it will be like the 60D announcement just a load of recycled parts again that will have people not very happy.

Im positive that we will see some nice new technology in digic 6, if not digit 6 then digic 6+ or dual digic 6 as digit 6 already exists lower down in the range.

 

[Lee Jay]

Only a little. The 7DII sensor is quite good, I'm rarely limited by low-ISO DR, and Canon could potentially use the same sensor and still improve IQ by improving off-sensor electronics and/or using some tricks associated with the dual pixel architecture of that sensor.

 

[anthonyd]

it has the same sensor as the Eos70D but with just more bells & whistles?

I have a sneaky feeling that maybe its going to be the same image quality as the 70D just more robust, full frame viewfinder, gazillion frames per second, wifi, gps and class leading video...So just how disappointed will you be if that is the case?

Neither surprised nor disappointed. It seems pretty likely, to me. If there's a significant IQ boost, I might be tempted to get one as a backup body...but the kind of IQ boost I'm talking about likely defies the laws of physics, so I'm not holding my breath.

Really? You think this is the end of the line for IQ? Sure, some sizes inside the sensors might be reaching the limits set by physics, but most problems are a question of engineering. I don't have a way to prove my claim, but I bet you if you look back in 10 years, you will agree with me that the IQ now and the IQ then will not be comparable.

 

[nebugeater]

Only a little. The 7DII sensor is quite good, I'm rarely limited by low-ISO DR, and Canon could potentially use the same sensor and still improve IQ by improving off-sensor electronics and/or using some tricks associated with the dual pixel architecture of that sensor.

So if you have the 7DII sensor in hand you better spill some info on this thing!

 

[Lightmaster]

The 7DII sensor is quite good

mhm....

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

it has the same sensor as the Eos70D but with just more bells & whistles?

I have a sneaky feeling that maybe its going to be the same image quality as the 70D just more robust, full frame viewfinder, gazillion frames per second, wifi, gps and class leading video...So just how disappointed will you be if that is the case?

Neither surprised nor disappointed. It seems pretty likely, to me. If there's a significant IQ boost, I might be tempted to get one as a backup body...but the kind of IQ boost I'm talking about likely defies the laws of physics, so I'm not holding my breath.

The thing is ... If there is a significantly better sensor (doubtful), then the same technology can be applied to a FF body, and the improvement would be even greater.
Now, if they priced it at below $1000, it might make a backup camera.

 

[awinphoto]

it has the same sensor as the Eos70D but with just more bells & whistles?

I have a sneaky feeling that maybe its going to be the same image quality as the 70D just more robust, full frame viewfinder, gazillion frames per second, wifi, gps and class leading video...So just how disappointed will you be if that is the case?

Neither surprised nor disappointed. It seems pretty likely, to me. If there's a significant IQ boost, I might be tempted to get one as a backup body...but the kind of IQ boost I'm talking about likely defies the laws of physics, so I'm not holding my breath.

Really? You think this is the end of the line for IQ? Sure, some sizes inside the sensors might be reaching the limits set by physics, but most problems are a question of engineering. I don't have a way to prove my claim, but I bet you if you look back in 10 years, you will agree with me that the IQ now and the IQ then will not be comparable.

If i've said it once, i've said it a hundred times, in film, the 35mm topped out at 8x10 for image quality... yeah you could print bigger but you were always sacrificing quality and or grain by going 11x14 or 16x20... now we have the 5d3 and the like that can print almost a 16x20 out of camera with little to no interpolation of the pixels. We have gone leaps and bounds than the film era, but like, neuro, we are really reaching it's max potential... Now with the improvement of technology and processing, I can see similar qualities or maintaining the quality, but even bigger picture/file/pixel counts... and that in itself is no easy feat... but to have the assumption that you can keep getting bigger and better sensors that are really size dependent and restricted, I dont see that happening too much more without major sacrifices. Lastly, with technology getting better, slowly but surely i hope and can see medium format being the route many photographers will go in the future (like in the days of film) when optimum IQ and print size was ideal.

 

[Lightmaster]

it has the same sensor as the Eos70D but with just more bells & whistles?

I have a sneaky feeling that maybe its going to be the same image quality as the 70D just more robust, full frame viewfinder, gazillion frames per second, wifi, gps and class leading video...So just how disappointed will you be if that is the case?

Neither surprised nor disappointed. It seems pretty likely, to me. If there's a significant IQ boost, I might be tempted to get one as a backup body...but the kind of IQ boost I'm talking about likely defies the laws of physics, so I'm not holding my breath.

Really? You think this is the end of the line for IQ? Sure, some sizes inside the sensors might be reaching the limits set by physics, but most problems are a question of engineering. I don't have a way to prove my claim, but I bet you if you look back in 10 years, you will agree with me that the IQ now and the IQ then will not be comparable.

it´s sure not end of the line.

as you can see with todays sony sensors there is room for improvement on canon sensors.

a better manufacturing process that shrinks the additional electronics on the sensor, better AD ... etc.
new materials who can collect more photons before they are saturated (full well capacity increased).

i think canon sensor can be optimized for quantum efficiency too.

i would be very happy when i get cleaner shadows and some more MP.
not only for the 7D Mk2 (i will not buy) but for FF sensors too.
and some bump in DR would be nice.

it´s all possible as we see today already.

it will not be like moores law.. but it´s sure not the end.

 

[docsmith]

+1 for those only expecting a marginally better sensor. Other significant improvements such as fps and AF are more expected. I also hope they work on the AA filter to help with sharpness.

But specifically looking at the sensor, everyone likes to tout Nikon/Sony and how much better they are, but when you compare the 70D (which is a bit better than the 7D sensor on dxomark measurements), the tonal range and SNR are very similar with the Nikon D7100. There is some gain to be had in DR at low ISO and color sensitivity. But I doubt either will be mind blowing.

In short, even if you drop the latest cropped sensor from Sony/Nikon into the 7D II, it wouldn't give you FF performance in a crop sensor body. It would be marginally better. But many marginal improvements (sensor, AF, fps, etc) would be a very solid upgrade. Maybe even throw in 4K video (not that too many here will care, but others would).

 

[Loswr]

it has the same sensor as the Eos70D but with just more bells & whistles?

I have a sneaky feeling that maybe its going to be the same image quality as the 70D just more robust, full frame viewfinder, gazillion frames per second, wifi, gps and class leading video...So just how disappointed will you be if that is the case?

Neither surprised nor disappointed. It seems pretty likely, to me. If there's a significant IQ boost, I might be tempted to get one as a backup body...but the kind of IQ boost I'm talking about likely defies the laws of physics, so I'm not holding my breath.

Really? You think this is the end of the line for IQ? Sure, some sizes inside the sensors might be reaching the limits set by physics, but most problems are a question of engineering. I don't have a way to prove my claim, but I bet you if you look back in 10 years, you will agree with me that the IQ now and the IQ then will not be comparable.

Oh, I'm sure there's room for improvement. But I stated, "...the kind of IQ boost I'm talking about," that would get me excited about the 7DII. As mainly a FF user, and one who shoots a lot in relatively poor lighting where I also need fast shutter speeds, I derive great benefit from the ~3.5 extra stops of usable high ISO that the 1D X gives me, compared to the 7D.

Do you honestly believe the 7DII will eat significantly into that margin? Even if it does, a 1D X II will soon follow with equivalent tech. That's the physics I'm referring to – when it comes to sensors, bigger is better. I use my EOS M occasionally, but only in good light...it's only advantage is the small size, and the 7DII won't have that.

 

[Sporgon]

It's probably not the camera for me, so I'd be more surprised than disappointed. IMO the long delay on the 7DII must relate to the sensor; everything else is in place.

So if the sensor doesn't offer some significant advance over the 70D s new tech of duel 'pixel' I'd be surprised. I still wonder if Canon would have the b***s to make it a high speed, low light king of around 16 mp. Leave the really high mp to the amateur lines and really kick out some FF challenging IQ from the crop sensor.

 

[Lightmaster]

im not up to date but isn´t there still a fill factor problem for CMOS sensors compared to CCD?

im no cmos engineer but when that problem could be eliminated sensor performance will increase.

i mean especially canon should have this problem when they still use a 500nm process.

someone correct me when im wrong....

 

[Loswr]

im not up to date but isn´t there still a fill factor problem for CMOS sensors compared to CCD?

Microlenses, particularly gapless ones like those in current sensors, pretty much obviate fill factor as an issue.

 

[Lee Jay]

That's the physics I'm referring to – when it comes to sensors, bigger is better.

Bigger sensors aren't better in low-light, larger apertures are. Bigger sensors work better in low-light when you can use a longer focal length at the same f-stop, thus increasing aperture. For example, you might use a 500/4 on full frame (125mm of aperture) instead of a 300/4 on 1.6-crop (75mm of aperture). However, if that option isn't available lens-wise, then the larger sensor loses its advantage.

I often have that option available, which is why I can (and do) obtain the advantage of a larger sensor in low light. But one must be careful to make sure such an option is available before buying into the advantage.

 

[Lightmaster]

im not up to date but isn´t there still a fill factor problem for CMOS sensors compared to CCD?

Microlenses, particularly gapless ones like those in current sensors, pretty much obviate fill factor as an issue.

i know they help... but do they really "eliminate" the influence?
or is it that they compensate for it... and how much?

especially for high megapixel sensors i would think that greater fill factor will help.

from common sense i would say when your manufacturing process stays at 500nm and you shrinking the pixels then the fill factor will decrease.