Eos7D mk2, How EXCITED will you be if . . .?

[luckydude]

Yup. I'm on record as saying I'd pay $3-4K for a 5DIII in crop factor form and no ISO/image quality penalty. I have a 7D and a 5DIII and the 7D sits unused, the 5D is that much better.

HA! I knew you people were out there.

Don't get me wrong, the 7D is a capable camera, I think it gets beat up a bit too much on the forums. It's just that the 5D is better. I'm really hoping that the 7DII is like a 5DIII w/ a 1.6x TC that doesn't take a stop of light and doesn't drop the image quality. That would be worth a lot to anyone who does wildlife, especially birds.

But I think you realize the madness of Canon were they to offer it. Even if they could pull off a 'crop 5D3' with the same IQ, to do so would damage their FF body sales and the sale of their superteles. People could simply do more (on the long end) with less gear. Canon probably does not want that.

Further, I'm not sure a crop sensor can actually beat a relatively contemporary FF sensor like the 5D3 or 6D.

So the question becomes, how close does the 7D2 IQ have to be to that of the 6D or 5D3 to have you opt for that instead of FF?

- A

I'm already deep into big glass, 200 f2, 400 DO, 600 f4 II, so Canon has extracted most of that pound of flesh. Though there are times I'm tempted by the 300/400 f2.8.

I do care about sharpness, I'd want the 7D II to keep up with the 600. AF and tracking would be a draw if they are better, both the 7D and the 5DIII hunt more than I'd like for hawks.

For me it will never be FF or crop, it would be crop for reach, FF for most other things. I'm annoyed I didn't move to FF sooner, the images are better.

On the other hand, you guys shouldn't listen to me, I'm an idiot with enough money that my wife lets me buy this stuff, I'm nowhere near as good as the guy who had that awesome pic of the heron taken w/ the 7D & 600mm (or any of the rest of you, some amazing talent here).

 

[unfocused]

I just think the argument has sublimed above basic forum back and forth and become one of those religiously held beliefs we won't ever sway on, like to use / not use UV filters, the value of IS on wide angle lenses, etc.

- A

Very True.

Serious 7D shooters are not necessarily amateurs on tight budgets.

Not everyone can afford to spend significant amounts of money on a camera body, or indeed lenses, yet they may wish or really need to have a given performance...

For the images that these people are producing there will be no perceivable difference between FF or crop; no one will know the difference. That situation will change in low light sports though. Will this situation change; will Canon want it to change ? This may be one reason why the new 7DII won't be 16 mp. It is one thing to offer a cheaper, credible alternate to those that cannot afford a 1Dx, but quite another to allow that cheaper alternative to compete in every sphere!

Very True, also.

We are only weeks away from knowing, but I'll risk it by repeating my prediction.

I am expecting that the 7DII will be about 24mp. The sensor will perform better in low light and high ISO than the 70D, but it's not going to go into 5D, 1DX or 6D territory. (Physics is a stubborn thing).

Like all modern DSLRs, it will be a fine, all-purpose camera. But, it's greatest strength will be in taking advantage of the benefits of the APS-C sensor size. It will have autofocusing capabilities equal to or exceeding the 5DIII and with f8 autofocusing, daylight sports, bird and wildlife photographers will be able to mount the new 100-400 zoom with a 1.4 III tele-extender to go to an effective 900 mm before cropping. With 24mp, they can crop away half the image and still have excellent results (1,800 mm anyone?)

Canon very specifically targeted the 5DIII to wedding and event photographers and it was a huge success. People need to understand how target marketing works in this case. By having a specific market in mind for the 5DIII, Canon has a guaranteed user base that it could build off of. Doesn't mean it's not a great camera for others – I own one and I would shoot myself before I would shoot a wedding. It just means they had a base of customers in mind when they released it and it worked well for them.

With the 7DII they will target it to birders, wildlife and sports shooters. People who either need it for their living (sports shooters) or who have disposable income to spend on their hobby (bird and wildlife photographers). Just as the 5DIII became the "must have" camera for wedding photographers, the 7DII will be a "must have" for these folks.

Don't get me wrong, the 7D is a capable camera, I think it gets beat up a bit too much on the forums. It's just that the 5D is better. I'm really hoping that the 7DII is like a 5DIII w/ a 1.6x TC that doesn't take a stop of light and doesn't drop the image quality. That would be worth a lot to anyone who does wildlife, especially birds.

But I think you realize the madness of Canon were they to offer it. Even if they could pull off a 'crop 5D3' with the same IQ, to do so would damage their FF body sales and the sale of their superteles. People could simply do more (on the long end) with less gear. Canon probably does not want that.

- A

The only point I disagree with is that I don't think Canon is worried about the sales of their super-telephotos in this way. They aren't stupid. They know that only the tiniest fraction of their customer base can ever afford anything more than the 100-400 zoom and even that is pushing it for most customers.

If they can sell a hundred 7DIIs with a 100-400 zoom for every one $10,000 super telephoto, they'll happily do that and it's probably not at all unrealistic.

Bottom line -- if you are looking for a crop sensor that performs as well in low light as a 1Dx at a fraction of the price you can start writing your whining posts now, because it isn't going to happen.

I repeat a core premise: DSLR manufacturers need to expand their market. They can do so by finding new buyers, but that's getting more and more difficult. A much more realistic strategy is to turn their existing customers into two-body customers. They want us all to buy a full frame body for low light performance and an APS-C body for reach and resolution.

 

[vjlex]

A sub-$2000 7DII doesn't sound realistic to me. Cheaper than the 6D? Why would they do that? Those 2 cameras seem targeted at quite different users. 6D is the entry-level full frame for people who want to get their feet wet; 7D is the top-of-the-line crop body for people who want to shoot quick action and have some built in reach. I'm much more inclined to believe Canon will do to the 7DII pricing what they did to the 5DIII pricing- add on $1000 bucks to the price of the predecessor.

$2499 at start.

 

[Loswr]

I'm much more inclined to believe Canon will do to the 7DII pricing what they did to the 5DIII pricing- add on $1000 bucks to the price of the predecessor.

$2499 at start.

They raised the 5-series price substantially, which left a gap to be filled by the 6D. With what will Canon fill the $1500 gap between the $1K 70D and your proposed 250% higher-priced 7D? There may be quite a few 7D owners who would upgrade to a 7DII...but there's a far larger customer base of Rebel/xxxD and xxD owners that Canon would like to see upgrade, and a >$1800 7DII will preclude most of that.

$1699 at launch.

 

[ahsanford]

A sub-$2000 7DII doesn't sound realistic to me. Cheaper than the 6D? Why would they do that? Those 2 cameras seem targeted at quite different users. 6D is the entry-level full frame for people who want to get their feet wet; 7D is the top-of-the-line crop body for people who want to shoot quick action and have some built in reach. I'm much more inclined to believe Canon will do to the 7DII pricing what they did to the 5DIII pricing- add on $1000 bucks to the price of the predecessor.

$2499 at start.

Agree. Reasonable guess assuming solid specs are announced.

Some folks can't wrap their heads around how a crop could ever cost more than a relatively contemporary FF camera. But consider the delta in cost between the 6D and 5D3. Think about what features drive that difference:

• 5D3's much more comprehensive AF system, taken from the 1DX
• 5D3 can perform shots at 1/8000 shutter speed
• 5D3 has a 100% viewfinder
• 5D3 has +1.5 fps

And, just for the sake of argument, let's say the entire difference in price between the 5D3 and 6D -- some $1500 -- was due to just those feature differences above.

Now ask yourself, really crudely: how many of the above categories -- AF system, max shutter speed, VF coverage and burst rate -- will the 7D2 fall on the 5D3 side versus the 6D side? My money on the 7D2 will be that all four of those will be on the high end, i.e. the on the +$1500 camera side of things.

Now replace 5D3 with 7D2, and replace 6D with 70D and re-run the value proposition. Looks like the 7D2 would represent a comprehensive upgrade over the 70D. Then it's easy to see the 7D2's asking price climbing to new heights.

Granted, the math doesn't work exactly work that way (and a $1500 delta in the crop world is a bit crazy), but surely you get my point. Not all the cost/value of the body is in the sensor. AF systems, burst rate, etc. differentiate the product lines and provide value to shooters. They, in turn, want that and will pony up the bucks for it.

So I could easily see the 7D2 price eclipse the 6D price, eclipse $2k, etc.

- A

 

[ahsanford]

I'm much more inclined to believe Canon will do to the 7DII pricing what they did to the 5DIII pricing- add on $1000 bucks to the price of the predecessor.

$2499 at start.

They raised the 5-series price substantially, which left a gap to be filled by the 6D. With what will Canon fill the $1500 gap between the $1K 70D and your proposed 250% higher-priced 7D? There may be quite a few 7D owners who would upgrade to a 7DII...but there's a far larger customer base of Rebel/xxxD and xxD owners that Canon would like to see upgrade, and a >$1800 7DII will preclude most of that.

$1699 at launch.

Neuro, you're right on the key question -- is this the step-up body for the Rebel masses, or is this the super high end crop tool sports/wildlife people want?

If it's the former, I think they'll nerf the camera from getting all of the 5D3's hand-me-down upgrades from the 1Dx (perhaps have a nicer-but-not-1DX/5D3-nicer AF system) and keep the price low like you said.

But if it's the latter, it could be a "crop 5D3" with the great 1DX/5D3 AF system and a higher burst rate. That camera will be north of $2k.

- A

 

[9VIII]

I'd thought we'd start the week looking forward to something. What features / performance levels would get you excited about the 7D2?

I want a positive statement from you about what would legitimately fire you up to own a 7D2. No snarky "APS-C is not for me so I'll say 'A 50 MP FF sensor', ha ha" stuff. Seriously, what would get you excited when the 7D2 announcement comes?

- A

Disclaimer: I'm not trying poke fun at Ivan's original thread so much as build some excitement around a release. Mondays need positive thoughts because they are, in fact, Mondays.

...A 50MP APS-C sensor... Seriously, the pixel density on that would be amazing.

 

[ahsanford]

I'd thought we'd start the week looking forward to something. What features / performance levels would get you excited about the 7D2?

I want a positive statement from you about what would legitimately fire you up to own a 7D2. No snarky "APS-C is not for me so I'll say 'A 50 MP FF sensor', ha ha" stuff. Seriously, what would get you excited when the 7D2 announcement comes?

- A

Disclaimer: I'm not trying poke fun at Ivan's original thread so much as build some excitement around a release. Mondays need positive thoughts because they are, in fact, Mondays.

...A 50MP APS-C sensor... Seriously, the pixel density on that would be amazing.

I was going to say "No requests for APS-H" but then I knew everyone would ask for it.

We forum dwellers do not like to color within the lines, do we?

- A

 

[Loswr]

Now ask yourself, really crudely: how many of the above categories -- AF system, max shutter speed, VF coverage and burst rate -- will the 7D2 fall on the 5D3 side versus the 6D side? My money on the 7D2 will be that all four of those will be on the high end, i.e. the on the +$1500 camera side of things.

Compared to the 6D, the current 7D has better AF, 1-stop faster max shutter (1/8000 s, same as 5DIII), better VF coverage (100%), and faster burst rate (8 fps, actually 33% faster than the 5DIII). How do those features justify a >$2K price? At launch the 7D was less than current rebated pricing on the 6D, and today the 7D costs the same as a 70D. What the 7D doesn't have – and nor will the 7DII – is a FF sensor.

I do understand lots of people on this forum want an APS-C version of the 5DIII. I think that's what they'll get, for the most part...as far as features go, but not even close on IQ. But Canon likely knows what lots of people in the real world (a number several orders of magnitude larger than this microcosm) want, and I really doubt the majority want a $2500 APS-C camera.

 

[sdsr]

If it were mirrorless w EVF & IBIS, both at least as good as Olympus OMDs', and had image quality that's significantly better than an SL1's, I might be interested (not excited, though, barring some technological revolution that makes it as good as FF for image quality). Chances of any such combination showing up strike as being as close to zero as makes no difference, however, so for APS-C purposes I'll stick with my SL1 & Sony a6000 for a while longer. I'm afraid my reaction to dslr announcements is "oh, not again"....

(If I only shot APS-C, regularly photographed herons-catching-fish, and didn't have FF my response might be a bit different, I suppose.)

 

[bdunbar79]

Clearly, it will not have the AF system of the 1Dx and will not have nearly the IQ of the 5D3. And I don't get why people keep putting the AF system of the 1Dx/5D3. The 1Dx and 5D3 do not have the same AF system.

 

[vjlex]

They raised the 5-series price substantially, which left a gap to be filled by the 6D. With what will Canon fill the $1500 gap between the $1K 70D and your proposed 250% higher-priced 7D? There may be quite a few 7D owners who would upgrade to a 7DII...but there's a far larger customer base of Rebel/xxxD and xxD owners that Canon would like to see upgrade, and a >$1800 7DII will preclude most of that.

$1699 at launch.

For a while, the original 7D will fill in that gap. Then will eventually come along the 80D.

I would love to believe you're right- I'm not a fan of Canon's current pricing scheme. But I was personally gobsmacked by the $3500 price tag of the 5D3. I would love to believe that that was an isolated case and that Canon still engages in sensible pricing when it comes to upgrades, but I'm not inclined to believe that Canon is that principled. They will charge what they think they can get for it, not based on how neatly it fits into a pricing tier.

 

[Loswr]

They raised the 5-series price substantially, which left a gap to be filled by the 6D. With what will Canon fill the $1500 gap between the $1K 70D and your proposed 250% higher-priced 7D? There may be quite a few 7D owners who would upgrade to a 7DII...but there's a far larger customer base of Rebel/xxxD and xxD owners that Canon would like to see upgrade, and a >$1800 7DII will preclude most of that.

$1699 at launch.

For a while, the original 7D will fill in that gap. Then will eventually come along the 80D.

The original 7D is now the same price as the 70D, and when the $100 rebate on the 70D expires next month, the 7D will be cheaper. It's not going to be filling any gaps, sorry.

 

[gsealy]

It seems to me that the 7D line is about a camera that is rugged and can take extreme conditions, such rain and snow, heat and cold. I expect it to stay that way. So it appeals to people who are out in the wild or at sporting events who take massive amounts of photos seeking to get that one special shot. We can expect a 150-200K shutter count rating. I expect we'll see faster and better AF, maybe 12 FPS, better low light performance, and higher resolution than in the current 7DI. Given we have video pervasiveness, the 7DII will likely have clean HDMI out that can be stored in a recording device. 4K is very possible. Is it exciting for me? No, only because I have a 5DIII and other cameras. I would be thinking about a new 7DI though at a very cheap price. I do like work horses, and the 7DI is one.

 

[can0nfan2379]

I'd like the 7D2 to fill the place of the 1D4....essentially I'd like a 1 series APC weather sealed, wildlife monster.

I would spend 3000-3200 on that in a heart beat and I'm sure many other wildlife / sports guys would also. For other stuff I'll hold onto my 5D3.

 

[MichaelHodges]

The past IQ of the original 7D doesn't mean the 7D II will have the same problems. For Canon to succeed with the 7D line, the 7D II MUST have better IQ and overall performance than the 70D. It would just be a flop if it did not. If the 7D II does end up being a superior performer to the 70D...would you still adhere to the above statement? (Just curious...personally I find it odd when one single bad experience with one single product permanently taints a person's opinion of something...to me, every product generation is a chance for a new start, a chance for a company to reinvent itself, reinvigorate itself, or if necessary redeem itself (not that Canon needs redeeming, but they do need some reinvigoration in some areas.))

I battled a 7D for three years and it was never repaired properly. The customer service on top of it was the worst I've experienced. On the first day of using the camera, it misfocused badly at telephoto. I should have just returned it, but instead I decided to let Canon do the right thing. Big mistake. I really wasted a ton of time on the issue.

I've never had a problem with a Canon body before that, or with the two bodies I bought after. I have no interest in pursuing a 7DII at all, because the 70D is stunning, and I already have a full frame to go with it.

The Mark IV and 7D, IMHO, focused poorly with certain telephotos, and shared the AI Servo II algorithms and AF CF settings.

Sure, the 7DII could use different algorithms, but I'm just staying away. Bad karma. I came pretty close to defecting over the 7D issue.

If you need an upgrade over the 7D, get the 70D. Why? Better sharpness at RAW (I'd say 30-45%), better color at RAW, much more reliable focus and almost as fast. I had both cameras side by side for a month.

 

[scottkinfw]

I just can't get excited for iq less than 5DIII with less AF ability, and less low light performance. I don't want to settle for less fps either, so this will not be a camera for me. I will eagerly wait to see what it offers. I hope it satisfies the nay sayers.

sek

 

[luckydude]

I'd like the 7D2 to fill the place of the 1D4....essentially I'd like a 1 series APC weather sealed, wildlife monster.

I would spend 3000-3200 on that in a heart beat and I'm sure many other wildlife / sports guys would also. For other stuff I'll hold onto my 5D3.

+1

My thoughts as well.

 

[slclick]

Not excited, it's just a thing.

 

[Twostones]

In addition to what others have desired, I would get excited if it has a price I can afford in a full size weather sealed body like the 7D or 5DIII with Eye control, 24 megapixel sensor or better and in Canon White. My 7D gets very hot when shooting in the sun, hot enough that I am considering painting it white.