Fewer megapixels please!

entoman

wildlife photography
May 8, 2015
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Well done Canon for winning (temporarily) the megapixel race with the 5DsR. I'm sure it will sell by the bucketload to those who are impressed by high numbers and paper specifications.

But how about the rest of us - 99% of advanced DSLR users don't need or want such high resolution. 24-28 megapixels is more than enough for me as a pro wildlife photographer. What is far far more important is the ability to produce high quality noise-free, high dynamic range images at high ISO settings (1600-6400).

The 1Dx achieves this, but is heavy, bulky, very expensive, and most of us just don't need 14fps. Hoping for a 5Dx - 24 megapixels, 6fps, AF and metering system adopted from 1Dx, with high dynamic range and high IQ at high ISO.
 
Sony actually nailed it with their A7S. Especially its tilting screen, body size and super-high-ISO LiveView are the things I like the most. I'd love to see something similar from Canon in form of a small FF DSLR body. My 6D is still one of the best when it comes to high ISO, but it's missing the things I like so much about the A7S.

I'm not a Canon fanboy and would be using any system if it fits my needs. Jumping ship is no option for me, as that'd be too expensive for what I actually get. I hope that Canon will make a good FF mirrorless or a 6Da/II sometime in 2016.
 
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I have recently had the opportunity to find out just how good the 5DSr is, far exceeded my expectations in versatility, ISO and responsiveness. The IQ was what I expected BL&%$Y marvelous!
However it didn't make my current 18mp FF camera feel lacking in any way. Now if they dropped in a good high ISO sensor in the 20-25 MP range coupled with a small increase in fps I would probably be close to the front of the queue! I think that much of it's image quality comes from the processors/algorithms which I am sure would work just as well (and quicker) on a less populated sensor - 5D Mk4?
For the dedicated landscaper etc I think it will become the tool of choice and it's surprisingly good for wildlife - but I think it could be better for wildlife with a few less pixies!
 
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I am a landscaper first and foremost, and I'm with you guys all the way. I need 50 mp like I need a venereal disease. I 'm not a pro, but I'm sure they'll tell you that 24 to 28 good mp is more than enough for any high art or Nat Geo type commercial market. The 5Ds/r are niche cameras for the tiny handful of photographers who sell prints 24"x36" or larger. The reviews of these bodies match my initial expectations for them exactly: increased resolution, of course, and slightly better overall IQ than you would expect from a halving of pixel size. Like johnf3f I attribute this to next-generation noise-suppression algorithms (and the ability to downsample) rather than any fundamental design improvements in the sensor itself.

Sorry for the people who are tired of hearing about it, but what I need a whole lot more than megamegapixels is a camera that can capture a brilliant sunset without turning the framing groundscape into a banded silhouette. You know--more DR, less low-ISO banding. These super-mp cameras strike me as a desperate attempt to staunch Canon's bleeding in the landscape market, by doing what it can do (resolution) rather than what it needs to do--but apparently can't. Does anyone else find it telling that in spite of a doubling of resolution--something that would have been hailed as radical and revolutionary three or four years ago--there has been no attempt to promote these cameras as the next generation of the 5D in spite of the fact that the Mark 4 is now a year overdue and counting.

I'm one of the many people at 5D2 and holding, holding, holding. Yes, the 6D is a nice camera for the dollar, but as a landscape/portrait camera it's not a $2000 upgrade on a 5D2. Worse for Canon, I've now also stopped buying lenses. And that's too bad, because Canon is still at the top of that heap. The 24mm TS-E is a landscaper's dream, and 100-400 L II is perfect for my modest needs as an action/wildlife shooter. But electronics years are like dog years, and (to mix metaphors) I'd be hanging those spendy lenses off the front of a body that is now a Model A verging on a Model T.

The fanbois on this forum have declared Canon's banding and DR issues as off limits for discussion--too tired, too lame, and prima facie evidence of trolling. Heck, Canon's sensor problems are nothing that can't be worked around with a couple of pounds of Lee brackets and GND filters. With a little bit of imagination anybody can bracket a breaking wave.

Well, duh, of course a camera system is a lot more than its sensor, and of course, Canon's UI and lenses are still the industry standard. But for every fanboi whose tired of hearing about these issues, there's someone like me who's tired of fanbois talking about two stops of dynamic range as if it were something Canon can safely ignore: the insignificant difference between 58 and 60 miles per hour. It's a logarithmic scale folks, and two stops is the difference between 20 and 80 mph. And the fact is, when one area of performance becomes so glaringly deficient, it pulls the whole system down. I for one am too old to jump ship. But if I were 25 and getting into photography with my interests, I would probably make a different choice, and that can't be good news for Canon. You see things on this forum you never saw three or four years ago, including lengthy threads about the nuts and bolts of successfully adapting Canon lenses to Sony bodies.

I'm going on record as saying the 5D4 is now the pivot point in Canon's future as a manufacturer of high end camera bodies. The long delay in releasing the camera suggests that the company has, at least, finally acknowledged internally that it has a problem. One would hope that Canon keeps working on it's sensor problem, but if it can't figure it out, or can't beat Sony's patents, then it's time--like Nikon--to accept the inevitable and outsource it's sensors for the time being.
 
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Curmudgeon said:
I am a landscaper first and foremost, and I'm with you guys all the way. I need 50 mp like I need a venereal disease. I 'm not a pro, but I'm sure they'll tell you that 24 to 28 good mp is more than enough for any high art or Nat Geo type commercial market. The 5Ds/r are niche cameras for the tiny handful of photographers who sell prints 24"x36" or larger. The reviews of these bodies match my initial expectations for them exactly: increased resolution, of course, and slightly better overall IQ than you would expect from a halving of pixel size. Like johnf3f I attribute this to next-generation noise-suppression algorithms (and the ability to downsample) rather than any fundamental design improvements in the sensor itself.

Sorry for the people who are tired of hearing about it, but what I need a whole lot more than megamegapixels is a camera that can capture a brilliant sunset without turning the framing groundscape into a banded silhouette. You know--more DR, less low-ISO banding. These super-mp cameras strike me as a desperate attempt to staunch Canon's bleeding in the landscape market, by doing what it can do (resolution) rather than what it needs to do--but apparently can't. Does anyone else find it telling that in spite of a doubling of resolution--something that would have been hailed as radical and revolutionary three or four years ago--there has been no attempt to promote these cameras as the next generation of the 5D in spite of the fact that the Mark 4 is now a year overdue and counting.

I'm one of the many people at 5D2 and holding, holding, holding. Yes, the 6D is a nice camera for the dollar, but as a landscape/portrait camera it's not a $2000 upgrade on a 5D2. Worse for Canon, I've now also stopped buying lenses. And that's too bad, because Canon is still at the top of that heap. The 24mm TS-E is a landscaper's dream, and 100-400 L II is perfect for my modest needs as an action/wildlife shooter. But electronics years are like dog years, and (to mix metaphors) I'd be hanging those spendy lenses off the front of a body that is now a Model A verging on a Model T.

The fanbois on this forum have declared Canon's banding and DR issues as off limits for discussion--too tired, too lame, and prima facie evidence of trolling. Heck, Canon's sensor problems are nothing that can't be worked around with a couple of pounds of Lee brackets and GND filters. With a little bit of imagination anybody can bracket a breaking wave.

Well, duh, of course a camera system is a lot more than its sensor, and of course, Canon's UI and lenses are still the industry standard. But for every fanboi whose tired of hearing about these issues, there's someone like me who's tired of fanbois talking about two stops of dynamic range as if it were something Canon can safely ignore: the insignificant difference between 58 and 60 miles per hour. It's a logarithmic scale folks, and two stops is the difference between 20 and 80 mph. And the fact is, when one area of performance becomes so glaringly deficient, it pulls the whole system down. I for one am too old to jump ship. But if I were 25 and getting into photography with my interests, I would probably make a different choice, and that can't be good news for Canon. You see things on this forum you never saw three or four years ago, including lengthy threads about the nuts and bolts of successfully adapting Canon lenses to Sony bodies.

I'm going on record as saying the 5D4 is now the pivot point in Canon's future as a manufacturer of high end camera bodies. The long delay in releasing the camera suggests that the company has, at least, finally acknowledged internally that it has a problem. One would hope that Canon keeps working on it's sensor problem, but if it can't figure it out, or can't beat Sony's patents, then it's time--like Nikon--to accept the inevitable and outsource it's sensors for the time being.

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dilbert said:
Curmudgeon said:
I am a landscaper first and foremost, and I'm with you guys all the way.
...
I'm one of the many people at 5D2 and holding, holding, holding.
...

Then just do like the rest of us are doing: get a Sony A7RII and Metabones III/IV adapter.

Dilbert, this is a thread bemoaning MP, Curmudgeon, who is living up to his name, is saying he doesn't want more then 28MP, so how is telling him to buy a 42MP camera a solution?

But are you confirming you have actually purchased an A7RII now?

Aglet said:
privatebydesign said:
Like this?
you completely missed the breaking wave ;)

Well as you know I have never been one to worry about what I don't have, so for that example I'll go waveless! And laugh at people who "go on record" because they can't get similar results.
 
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We can all agree that the 5Ds/R is a specialty camera. Why can't you be happy for those who like it?

There is lots of specialty equipment out there:
Canon MPE 65: not for everybody for sure, no AF for crying out loud!
TS-E series: also no AF, absolutely pointless for street shooting and wildlife!
400 f/4 DO: utterly useless for scenery and landscapes!
1Dx: who needs that many frames per second for a sunset?!?
etc.

If DR is that important to you, there is one other manufacturer out there. Have fun with their TS lenses (particularly in the wide angle segment) and the flash system.

I am also one of those 5D2 shooters. Did not see the point of the 5D3, but jumped on the 5DsR. 5D4? yawn. 1Dxyz? could not care less. Will be happy for y'all once you get your new toy. But for now, it's my time.
 
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entoman said:
Well done Canon for winning (temporarily) the megapixel race with the 5DsR. I'm sure it will sell by the bucketload to those who are impressed by high numbers and paper specifications.

But how about the rest of us - 99% of advanced DSLR users don't need or want such high resolution. 24-28 megapixels is more than enough for me as a pro wildlife photographer. What is far far more important is the ability to produce high quality noise-free, high dynamic range images at high ISO settings (1600-6400).

The 1Dx achieves this, but is heavy, bulky, very expensive, and most of us just don't need 14fps. Hoping for a 5Dx - 24 megapixels, 6fps, AF and metering system adopted from 1Dx, with high dynamic range and high IQ at high ISO.

Given that Canon has never lacked in Dynamic Range above ISO 800 and they've stuck at 20MP longer than anyone else, the best that I can do to translate this post into reality would be:

"Good job Canon, don't change a thing."
 
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Crosswind said:
Sony actually nailed it with their A7S. Especially its tilting screen, body size and super-high-ISO LiveView are the things I like the most. I'd love to see something similar from Canon in form of a small FF DSLR body. My 6D is still one of the best when it comes to high ISO, but it's missing the things I like so much about the A7S.

I'm not a Canon fanboy and would be using any system if it fits my needs. Jumping ship is no option for me, as that'd be too expensive for what I actually get. I hope that Canon will make a good FF mirrorless or a 6Da/II sometime in 2016.

+1

Now if Canon can give a second life to the existing sensor from the 1DX in a low spec low price full frame body, then I may be tempted to update my 6D. Otherwise I will be covetous of the A7 II
 
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Curmudgeon said:
I am a landscaper first and foremost, and I'm with you guys all the way. I need 50 mp like I need a venereal disease. I 'm not a pro, but I'm sure they'll tell you that 24 to 28 good mp is more than enough for any high art or Nat Geo type commercial market. The 5Ds/r are niche cameras for the tiny handful of photographers who sell prints 24"x36" or larger. The reviews of these bodies match my initial expectations for them exactly: increased resolution, of course, and slightly better overall IQ than you would expect from a halving of pixel size. Like johnf3f I attribute this to next-generation noise-suppression algorithms (and the ability to downsample) rather than any fundamental design improvements in the sensor itself.

Sorry for the people who are tired of hearing about it, but what I need a whole lot more than megamegapixels is a camera that can capture a brilliant sunset without turning the framing groundscape into a banded silhouette. You know--more DR, less low-ISO banding. These super-mp cameras strike me as a desperate attempt to staunch Canon's bleeding in the landscape market, by doing what it can do (resolution) rather than what it needs to do--but apparently can't. Does anyone else find it telling that in spite of a doubling of resolution--something that would have been hailed as radical and revolutionary three or four years ago--there has been no attempt to promote these cameras as the next generation of the 5D in spite of the fact that the Mark 4 is now a year overdue and counting.

I'm one of the many people at 5D2 and holding, holding, holding. Yes, the 6D is a nice camera for the dollar, but as a landscape/portrait camera it's not a $2000 upgrade on a 5D2. Worse for Canon, I've now also stopped buying lenses. And that's too bad, because Canon is still at the top of that heap. The 24mm TS-E is a landscaper's dream, and 100-400 L II is perfect for my modest needs as an action/wildlife shooter. But electronics years are like dog years, and (to mix metaphors) I'd be hanging those spendy lenses off the front of a body that is now a Model A verging on a Model T.

The fanbois on this forum have declared Canon's banding and DR issues as off limits for discussion--too tired, too lame, and prima facie evidence of trolling. Heck, Canon's sensor problems are nothing that can't be worked around with a couple of pounds of Lee brackets and GND filters. With a little bit of imagination anybody can bracket a breaking wave.

Well, duh, of course a camera system is a lot more than its sensor, and of course, Canon's UI and lenses are still the industry standard. But for every fanboi whose tired of hearing about these issues, there's someone like me who's tired of fanbois talking about two stops of dynamic range as if it were something Canon can safely ignore: the insignificant difference between 58 and 60 miles per hour. It's a logarithmic scale folks, and two stops is the difference between 20 and 80 mph. And the fact is, when one area of performance becomes so glaringly deficient, it pulls the whole system down. I for one am too old to jump ship. But if I were 25 and getting into photography with my interests, I would probably make a different choice, and that can't be good news for Canon. You see things on this forum you never saw three or four years ago, including lengthy threads about the nuts and bolts of successfully adapting Canon lenses to Sony bodies.

I'm going on record as saying the 5D4 is now the pivot point in Canon's future as a manufacturer of high end camera bodies. The long delay in releasing the camera suggests that the company has, at least, finally acknowledged internally that it has a problem. One would hope that Canon keeps working on it's sensor problem, but if it can't figure it out, or can't beat Sony's patents, then it's time--like Nikon--to accept the inevitable and outsource it's sensors for the time being.

"It" might be a logarithmic scale, but that isn't how our eyes perceive it because of the way our brains compress luminance, to our eyes it is the difference between 58 and 60 miles per hour, which is why there is all this discussion. If you believed any sensor was four times 'better' than the one you have you'd be a fool to not use it.

Meanwhile you have people like Sporgon, actual pro landscape shooters, who have tested the Exmor and Canon sensors next to each other and found the differences truthfully are in the range between 58 or 60 miles per hour. Four times more sounds impressive, but doesn't actually translate to anything like four times more anything with regards output quality.

And don't forget, if you are shooting RAW then the capture and recording is not logarithmic, it is very close to linear, all the logarithmic stuff comes in the RAW converter and screen profile.
 
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For people who want their purchases to last longer, wanting fewer MPs when the current pixel densities DO give a "useful difference" in 100% crop detail (sure, we get the ever going debate similar to FF vs Crop vs pixel density), I for one would like to see these pixel densities remain so that when things like 4K and higher becomes standard, and various image processing algorithms are improved, that the extra resolution is still useful. In some ways, limiting yourself to MP is as foolish as was claiming 640K of memory would be enough - it's just that it hasn't come to pass *as* quickly because the physics around improving photography are obviously slower to progress.
 
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entoman said:
99% of advanced DSLR users don't need or want such high resolution.

Can you substantiate that? I'd prefer people to just spek for themselfes - which is fair enough - or only make such claims based on evidence but not based on an "I represent 99% of the opinions out there anyway" attitude.
 
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dilbert said:
Curmudgeon said:
I am a landscaper first and foremost, and I'm with you guys all the way.
...
I'm one of the many people at 5D2 and holding, holding, holding.
...

Then just do like the rest of us are doing: get a Sony A7RII and Metabones III/IV adapter.

The rest of us (which includes me) is NOT getting a Sony A7RII and Metabones III/IV adaptor. YOU are. Speak for yourself but not for me please!
 
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entoman said:
... for me as a pro wildlife photographer...

I find this fascinating. Please provide some more details. Do you do this full-time? Is it your sole or main source of income? What is market? Are you selling prints, selling stock photos, selling to publications? How long have you been doing this and how did you get started?

The only other person I've ever met who earned a living at wildlife photography was a bird photographer during the film days. He had been shooting for 20 years or so and had compiled an extensive library of transparencies of nearly every North American bird imaginable in multiple settings. As he explained it, he was in demand because if a publication was looking for, say, an immature Red-Tailed Hawk in winter catching a mouse in a cornfield at sunset, he could give them three or four good shots to choose from.

I'm sure many others on this forum would like to know more how you made this work.
 
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I've owned cameras with various numbers of pixels from 300K to 32 mp. The images look better as the mp increases. However, since I also sometimes crop a lot and take very high ISO images, cropping a high ISO, High MP image is a recipe for disaster.

Canon with the 18mp 1D X and 21 mp 5D MK III has found a excellent balance point for being to capture high ISO images and still crop them.

I just sold my 5D classic, and it took beautiful photos, but cropping more than just a small anount was out of the question.

As technology continues to change, I expect to see higher MP bodies that still have superb high ISO and low per pixel noise.

The Sony A7s is good for video, but for stills, its pretty limited for those of us who crop a lot. The A7R II produces good high ISO images and can be cropped moderately, so technology is advancing. For those who stay below ISO 800, even 1:1 crops are possible with low noise.
 
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entoman said:
Well done Canon for winning (temporarily) the megapixel race with the 5DsR. I'm sure it will sell by the bucketload to those who are impressed by high numbers and paper specifications.

But how about the rest of us - 99% of advanced DSLR users don't need or want such high resolution. 24-28 megapixels is more than enough for me as a pro wildlife photographer. What is far far more important is the ability to produce high quality noise-free, high dynamic range images at high ISO settings (1600-6400).

The 1Dx achieves this, but is heavy, bulky, very expensive, and most of us just don't need 14fps. Hoping for a 5Dx - 24 megapixels, 6fps, AF and metering system adopted from 1Dx, with high dynamic range and high IQ at high ISO.

Wait - the 5D3 has 22MP (is 24 much more?), 6fps, and the 1Dx's AF system (but not metering). It's around 1/2-1 stop behind the 1Dx at high ISO. If the 5D4 came out with your requirements, it would hardly be an upgrade from the current model at all!

Incidentally, it's in wildlife photography that I want more megapixels the most. Cropping! And no images at any ISO from any camera are 'noise free'. Just a quibble :P
 
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privatebydesign said:
Curmudgeon said:
I am a landscaper first and foremost, and I'm with you guys all the way. I need 50 mp like I need a venereal disease. I 'm not a pro, but I'm sure they'll tell you that 24 to 28 good mp is more than enough for any high art or Nat Geo type commercial market. The 5Ds/r are niche cameras for the tiny handful of photographers who sell prints 24"x36" or larger. The reviews of these bodies match my initial expectations for them exactly: increased resolution, of course, and slightly better overall IQ than you would expect from a halving of pixel size. Like johnf3f I attribute this to next-generation noise-suppression algorithms (and the ability to downsample) rather than any fundamental design improvements in the sensor itself.

Sorry for the people who are tired of hearing about it, but what I need a whole lot more than megamegapixels is a camera that can capture a brilliant sunset without turning the framing groundscape into a banded silhouette. You know--more DR, less low-ISO banding. These super-mp cameras strike me as a desperate attempt to staunch Canon's bleeding in the landscape market, by doing what it can do (resolution) rather than what it needs to do--but apparently can't. Does anyone else find it telling that in spite of a doubling of resolution--something that would have been hailed as radical and revolutionary three or four years ago--there has been no attempt to promote these cameras as the next generation of the 5D in spite of the fact that the Mark 4 is now a year overdue and counting.

I'm one of the many people at 5D2 and holding, holding, holding. Yes, the 6D is a nice camera for the dollar, but as a landscape/portrait camera it's not a $2000 upgrade on a 5D2. Worse for Canon, I've now also stopped buying lenses. And that's too bad, because Canon is still at the top of that heap. The 24mm TS-E is a landscaper's dream, and 100-400 L II is perfect for my modest needs as an action/wildlife shooter. But electronics years are like dog years, and (to mix metaphors) I'd be hanging those spendy lenses off the front of a body that is now a Model A verging on a Model T.

The fanbois on this forum have declared Canon's banding and DR issues as off limits for discussion--too tired, too lame, and prima facie evidence of trolling. Heck, Canon's sensor problems are nothing that can't be worked around with a couple of pounds of Lee brackets and GND filters. With a little bit of imagination anybody can bracket a breaking wave.

Well, duh, of course a camera system is a lot more than its sensor, and of course, Canon's UI and lenses are still the industry standard. But for every fanboi whose tired of hearing about these issues, there's someone like me who's tired of fanbois talking about two stops of dynamic range as if it were something Canon can safely ignore: the insignificant difference between 58 and 60 miles per hour. It's a logarithmic scale folks, and two stops is the difference between 20 and 80 mph. And the fact is, when one area of performance becomes so glaringly deficient, it pulls the whole system down. I for one am too old to jump ship. But if I were 25 and getting into photography with my interests, I would probably make a different choice, and that can't be good news for Canon. You see things on this forum you never saw three or four years ago, including lengthy threads about the nuts and bolts of successfully adapting Canon lenses to Sony bodies.

I'm going on record as saying the 5D4 is now the pivot point in Canon's future as a manufacturer of high end camera bodies. The long delay in releasing the camera suggests that the company has, at least, finally acknowledged internally

that it has a problem. One would hope that Canon keeps working on it's sensor problem, but if it can't figure it out, or can't beat Sony's patents, then it's time--like Nikon--to accept the inevitable and outsource it's sensors for the time being.

Like this?

Come on Private, own up. You shot that on a Sony ! ;)

I suggest Curmudgeon changes now to a Sony a7 or a7s if he doesn't want the high mp, but wants to dig deep, deep into shadow recovery, or severely under expose to improve intense highlight fall off. It's quite clear that it is not a priority for Canon and isn't likely to be in the near future. Private's pleasing picture casts some light onto why this might be.
 
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