Fewer megapixels please!

[unfocused]

...the Mark 4 is now a year overdue and counting....

...I'm one of the many people at 5D2 and holding, holding, holding...

....The fanbois on this forum...

...The long delay in releasing the camera suggests that the company has, at least, finally acknowledged internally that it has a problem.

In what universe is the 5D IV a year overdue? By 7D standards we've got at least a year or two more to go.

So you haven't updated since the 5D II and feel you know enough about newer models to dismiss them? Perhaps if you actually shot with a camera that wasn't seven years old you'd feel differently.

Whenever someone writes "fanboy" or worse yet "fanboi" they have lost the argument.

Again, what long delay?

 

[privatebydesign]

...the Mark 4 is now a year overdue and counting....

...I'm one of the many people at 5D2 and holding, holding, holding...

....The fanbois on this forum...

...The long delay in releasing the camera suggests that the company has, at least, finally acknowledged internally that it has a problem.

In what universe is the 5D IV a year overdue? By 7D standards we've got at least a year or two more to go.

So you haven't updated since the 5D II and feel you know enough about newer models to dismiss them? Perhaps if you actually shot with a camera that wasn't seven years old you'd feel differently.

Whenever someone writes "fanboy" or worse yet "fanboi" they have lost the argument.

Again, what long delay?

Hey, I shoot with seven year old bodies! ;D

 

[unfocused]

Well done Canon for winning (temporarily) the megapixel race with the 5DsR. I'm sure it will sell by the bucketload to those who are impressed by high numbers and paper specifications.

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic, but I can say that I'm very impressed by both the reviews and the comments by those who actually use the camera. As Canon seems to consistently do, when their cameras hit the real world they always seem to perform well above the paper specs. That's been the case with pretty much every recent release. A prime example was the 6D which was originally panned by many as too expensive and under-specked. Until it got into the hands of users who, based on comments in this forum, found it far better than they anticipated. In fact it had a pretty good run on Amazon's top seller list as the best selling full frame camera for a couple of years.

 

[unfocused]

Hey, I shoot with seven year old bodies! ;D

But you aren't using those bodies to critique newer models.

 

[Sporgon]

...the Mark 4 is now a year overdue and counting....

...I'm one of the many people at 5D2 and holding, holding, holding...

....The fanbois on this forum...

...The long delay in releasing the camera suggests that the company has, at least, finally acknowledged internally that it has a problem.

In what universe is the 5D IV a year overdue? By 7D standards we've got at least a year or two more to go.

So you haven't updated since the 5D II and feel you know enough about newer models to dismiss them? Perhaps if you actually shot with a camera that wasn't seven years old you'd feel differently.

Whenever someone writes "fanboy" or worse yet "fanboi" they have lost the argument.

Again, what long delay?

I'm surprised that Aglet hasn't come riding over the hill, guns blazing, to announce that the 5DII was the worse EOS for deep shadow noise ! Actually he has a point. The fact that I find little practical difference between the 5DII and 6D at low ISO rather proves the point that I don't need shadow recovery in my pictures. However I do acknowledge that if you abuse the 5DII it can turn nasty. Rather ironic then that someone who berates the FPN of Canon uses a 5DII. (In fact Guys; if you're paranoid about FPN and you're still using a 5DII have you considered therapy ?). The more recent models are much, much better in this respect; in fact it is generally acknowledges by impartial commentators that there isn't much practical difference between say the 5Ds and the Exmor R equipped A7rII

I've had a play with the A7rII. Not that it is available in the UK yet; not sure where my source got hers from. If it floats your boat, good for you. I can understand the appeal, but personally, and I'm obviously not alone in this, the dslr is still the most flexible and desirable camera for my needs.

 

[Busted Knuckles]

So why we restate the concern this way.

Please, Canon use the knowledge you gained from the uber low light camera to provide a very serious i.e. 1Dx level effort oriented to those who seek the ultimate in low light sensitivity, ISO invariant ability to pull detail from shadows with a substantively improved S/N ratio. Key to the functionality of this uber low light is the ability to use the auto focus capabilities.

While we would take the high speed data pathways that allow for high frame rates if that makes your manufacturing more efficient/effective we understand that there may be compromises.

With ever evolving design, materials and manufacturing techniques please continue to stratify the market more precisely. Uber low light/high dynamic range vs. uber frame rate vs. uber resolution. We are impressed with the frame rate (1Dx), the resolution (5DS & 5DSR) (we do note that the 5Ds/r pretty much supplant the 5dIII in function as a generalist). We anxiously await your uber low light/HDR product.

 

[privatebydesign]

So why we restate the concern this way.

Please, Canon use the knowledge you gained from the uber low light camera to provide a very serious i.e. 1Dx level effort oriented to those who seek the ultimate in low light sensitivity, ISO invariant ability to pull detail from shadows with a substantively improved S/N ratio. Key to the functionality of this uber low light is the ability to use the auto focus capabilities.

While we would take the high speed data pathways that allow for high frame rates if that makes your manufacturing more efficient/effective we understand that there may be compromises.

With ever evolving design, materials and manufacturing techniques please continue to stratify the market more precisely. Uber low light/high dynamic range vs. uber frame rate vs. uber resolution. We are impressed with the frame rate (1Dx), the resolution (5DS & 5DSR) (we do note that the 5Ds/r pretty much supplant the 5dIII in function as a generalist). We anxiously await your uber low light/HDR product.

Quite simply put, I cannot see a volume market for people that need to regularly shoot stills above 10,000 iso that also want >20MP, but if they do, they already have sub $4,000 1DX's.

I don't want "uber low light" more than we already have it. I don't want Canon sidetracked by another niche, I can see the volume market of high MP FF cameras and the appeal they have to many who don't print big, I don't see the market or need for a low MP "uber low light" surveillance POS that truthfully is better suited, and marketed, to video users.

 

[unfocused]

I don't want Canon sidetracked by another niche...

That pretty well sums it up, I think.

The 5D series earned its respect and reputation as an all-around shooter's camera. Something that does everything quite well.

Canon saw a market and demand for a high megapixel version and released that. I have no problem with that.

I also understand that the future path to success for camera manufacturers is probably in specialization. The amateur market is shrinking and all manufacturers are looking for things that appeal to enthusiast and professional subsets. That's why the 7D went from a general purpose DSLR to a sports, birds and wildlife oriented camera. At the same time, Canon has done a very good job of making sure its specialized models still perform well for general purposes.

I expect the next version of the 5DIV will contain a modest increase in pixel count, a modest improvement in noise at higher ISOs, a modest improvement in dynamic range, a modest improvement in autofocus, a modest improvement in frame rate, DPAF, 4K, possibly a few other video improvements, the focus lever from the 7DII and maybe a few "surprise" features.

It won't be the "king" or "uber" anything – except for sales. It will be widely derided on forums by "experts" but it will be immensely popular with photographers.

 

[privatebydesign]

Having said all that I have, I have also said for a long time that I can see logic in spliting the 5D into three distinct models.

The 5D MkIV, the general purpose do it all camera that forums love to kill and photographers love to use.

The 5DS/R, the high MP camera for the 'fine art/studio' crowd and the landscapers who print and many semi pro and enthusiasts who just want 'the best' and think it will enable them to not get a 7D MkII for cropping reasons.

The 5DC, a replacement for the 1DC that was overpriced and underspecced way too quickly for a $10,000 camera. This could be your mythical "uber low light" camera, with a videocentric sensor (4K multiples of MP etc) and feature set. But it wouldn't be a still oriented camera, it would be a video tool that also took very good stills with full EOS functionality.

Now that makes a huge amount of sense to me, save on a lot of tooling and production costs, appeal to the broadest range of users yet lead the field, or at least run in the final, in all areas.

 

[unfocused]

Having said all that I have, I have also said for a long time that I can see logic in spliting the 5D into three distinct models.

The 5D MkIV, the general purpose do it all camera that forums love to kill and photographers love to use.

The 5DS/R, the high MP camera for the 'fine art/studio' crowd and the landscapers who print and many semi pro and enthusiasts who just want 'the best' and think it will enable them to not get a 7D MkII for cropping reasons.

The 5DC, a replacement for the 1DC that was overpriced and underspecced way too quickly for a $10,000 camera. This could be your mythical "uber low light" camera, with a videocentric sensor (4K multiples of MP etc) and feature set. But it wouldn't be a still oriented camera, it would be a video tool that also took very good stills with full EOS functionality.

Now that makes a huge amount of sense to me, save on a lot of tooling and production costs, appeal to the broadest range of users yet lead the field, or at least run in the final, in all areas.

Agreed. Put a flip/touch screen on it. Allow follow focus by touching the screen (like the 70D, but with variable speed). Throw in most of the Magic Lantern video enhancements and add in a few other goodies and you'd got a killer video DSLR.

 

[9VIII]

Well, here we are on page 3 and the OP is no-where to be found.

Entoman is probably a fictional character, something that does not use a camera, or interact with other people, just another façade to fill a void in an incomplete life.

 

[ishdakuteb]

Then just do like the rest of us are doing: get a Sony A7RII and Metabones III/IV adapter.

Read all of Curmudgeon's post. What he wants is better IQ and their reasoning is that fewer MP will deliver Canon IQ that is better than the 5Ds/R. What I'm saying is that he doesn't need to wait for Canon to downsize the sensor in order to get a camera with better IQ.

First, I am not sure what you mean by the "rest of us", but I am not the one in those "us".. However, if you already got your Sony A7R II, would you show me your great images with your new camera? Or you still have not bought it yet? I just wonder

I am still doing fine while learning with all of my existing Canon, which you have hated...

"Fall Color Reflecting Off Bishop Creek"

 

[Sporgon]

Then just do like the rest of us are doing: get a Sony A7RII and Metabones III/IV adapter.

Read all of Curmudgeon's post. What he wants is better IQ and their reasoning is that fewer MP will deliver Canon IQ that is better than the 5Ds/R. What I'm saying is that he doesn't need to wait for Canon to downsize the sensor in order to get a camera with better IQ.

First, I am not sure what you mean by the "rest of us", but I am not the one in those "us".. However, if you already got your Sony A7R II, would you show me your great images with your new camera? Or you still have not bought it yet? I just wonder

I am still doing fine while learning with all of my existing Canon, which you have hated...

"Fall Color Reflecting Off Bishop Creek"

ishdakuteb: this is the second time I've caught you cheating; that image is clearly correctly exposed which is not acceptable !

Pleasing image !

 

[quod]

Like this?

Lift the shadows and then we will see who is smirking. You don't get it.

 

[scyrene]

Like this?

Lift the shadows and then we will see who is smirking. You don't get it.

I can't tell if you're joking. Are you saying the image as presented needs more shadow lifting? (We don't know how much post processing was already done to it). If so, why?

 

[privatebydesign]

...
The 5DC, a replacement for the 1DC that was overpriced and underspecced way too quickly for a $10,000 camera. This could be your mythical "uber low light" camera, with a videocentric sensor (4K multiples of MP etc) and feature set. But it wouldn't be a still oriented camera, it would be a video tool that also took very good stills with full EOS functionality.
...

I don't know... the 5DC would be competing with the A7S?

The problem there is that the "4k multiples" is either ~8MP or 32MP+ (no cropping.) The A7S is in the former basket and the A7RII is in the latter asket. If the A7SII changes resolution, it almost certainly has to increase to the A7RII resolution or else the video needs to be interpolated.

How does Canon line up against that?

I neither know nor care. A videocentric camera would have less than zero interest to me, I just put the idea of a three model (three and a half with the current 5DS/R) out there as to me, in my simplistic mindset, it makes a lot of sense. But I am not a camera designer, I have no experience of manufacturing and I don't have the slightest idea of Canon corporate policy or what the camera division is expected to do.

 

[privatebydesign]

Like this?

Lift the shadows and then we will see who is smirking. You don't get it.

The shadows are lifted +100, and the exposure +0.45. Here is a 100% crop of those lifted shadows, a 100% crop of the same area as the file opened and a screenshot of the LR Develop panel. I also include the file as it opened but at reduced size. These are all unsharpened because LR sharpening is very bad compared to PS sharpening, I don't apply any sharpening (all sliders in LR sharpening are at zero) until I move to PS and the printing stage.

It seems I do get it.

 

[Busted Knuckles]

250 MP in an APS-H,

Well maybe next time.....

 

[scyrene]

...
The 5DC, a replacement for the 1DC that was overpriced and underspecced way too quickly for a $10,000 camera. This could be your mythical "uber low light" camera, with a videocentric sensor (4K multiples of MP etc) and feature set. But it wouldn't be a still oriented camera, it would be a video tool that also took very good stills with full EOS functionality.
...

I don't know... the 5DC would be competing with the A7S?

The problem there is that the "4k multiples" is either ~8MP or 32MP+ (no cropping.) The A7S is in the former basket and the A7RII is in the latter asket. If the A7SII changes resolution, it almost certainly has to increase to the A7RII resolution or else the video needs to be interpolated.

How does Canon line up against that?

I don't know much about it, but the 1DC was 18MP and did 4K, right? Is that the compromise maybe?

 

[privatebydesign]

...
The 5DC, a replacement for the 1DC that was overpriced and underspecced way too quickly for a $10,000 camera. This could be your mythical "uber low light" camera, with a videocentric sensor (4K multiples of MP etc) and feature set. But it wouldn't be a still oriented camera, it would be a video tool that also took very good stills with full EOS functionality.
...

I don't know... the 5DC would be competing with the A7S?

The problem there is that the "4k multiples" is either ~8MP or 32MP+ (no cropping.) The A7S is in the former basket and the A7RII is in the latter asket. If the A7SII changes resolution, it almost certainly has to increase to the A7RII resolution or else the video needs to be interpolated.

How does Canon line up against that?

I don't know much about it, but the 1DC was 18MP and did 4K, right? Is that the compromise maybe?

No in 4K the 1DC only uses an APS-H sized crop of the the sensor. This gives a native 4096 x 2160.