FF Mirrorless Needed in 2018 -- A7-III changed the segment !
- Thread starter hmatthes
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bwud said:
I have here a Sony A7R3, the latest Metabones and Sigma adapters. I also have a shelf full of Canon lenses, and a couple of Sigmas.
Without any reservation or exception, I can tell you that every single one I've tried would all focus better on the camera body they were designed for. I mean, it's not even close.
The Sigma MC-11 is better than the Metabones, by the way. If for no other reason, it doesn't crash. The Metabones sometimes just refuses to work and requires a power cycle, especially on single shot (AF-S). Maybe it's just this unit; I have no idea. When was the last time a Canon lens randomly stopped autofocusing on a Canon body?
But....
1. No lens/adapter combination gives you the full range of autofocus options, like expanding focus point or locking subject tracking, or any of the cool, unique Sony features like autofocus in magnification mode.
2. All of the adapted combinations hunt to some degree. None of the are clean, instant focus compared to either TTL PDAF or DPAF in live view. It's not even close.
3. All of the adapted combinations have strange quirks. Like, in continuous autofocus and EyeAF, which works now, yay, the 24-70/4IS jitters like it's having an epileptic seizure, even when the subject and camera aren't moving.
4. There are some really fun quirky combinations. Like a Sigma MC-11 + Sigma 1.4x TC + 150-600 works... except once you pass a FL that gives you > f/8, autofocus just dies.
I have a hard time believing that any professional who earns money with their gear would ever use an adapted Canon lens on a Sony body. It's just doesn't work the way it should. That's not to say that they're not great for enthusiasts or hobbyists, who just want something that works, if not perfectly. The pictures are still beautiful, and you can still achieve focus.
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neuroanatomist said:Don Haines said:brad-man said:And I thought everyone's first camera was a Kodak
Kodak instamatic with the flash cubes.....
Argus TLR.
Wow!! That is not a common first camera
Mine was a Nikon SLR of some kind that was a hand-me-down from my dad. I forget the model number now.
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Orangutan said:It is a major error to assume that your specific needs are representative of the entire market, or any segment of it. (that includes you, AvTvM
my decades-long experience tells me exactly otherwise. Almost every time i consider some product (any category) "good enough to buy" for me and my "exalted, out-of-the-ordinary, totally unique, not shared by any other human being-tastes" ... guess what, it turns out to become a 1055 mainstream, massive blockbuster seller.
last few examples from canon? 7D, 5D III, 70-200/2.8 L IS II, EOS M at € 299 ... LOL
Sole reason why Sony is not stills imaging gear market leader yet is because i don't buy their stuff yet. Why? Lenses - too big, too fat, way too expensive. Or sub-par or non-existent [looking at APS-C E-mount].
Market segments and porducts that will sell well in the next few years until computational photography fully takes over:
* Canon EOS M system ... because 1. it is small enough and 2. it is cheap enough ... up to now at least ... just wait for those f/1.4 clunkers some of you have been crying for all the time.
* Canon FF mirrorless system ... if 1. it is compact enough and 2. it is "affordable enough" [for normal income-earning amateurs that is]. Couple 1000 pro's don't really count in the big picture, even though stupid Canon is dedicating 99% of their efforts to produce Mk. III, IV, V of big white lenses well beyond 10k a piece.
;D
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Talys said:
Agreed. Likewise, the native Sony lenses work better than adapted counterparts.
Beware magical thinking!
ritholtz said:
Both the a6300 and a6500 use DR-Pix. “Not that much far off” is a fair assessment. Looks to be about a stop or so on average across the ISO range.
http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20IV,Nikon%20D850,Sony%20ILCE-6300
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As a 12 years canon customer I have no objection the A7 series got me tempted too.
But sony have always got some bugs and the reliability is more of a question to me as I used to take the expensive cameras to shoot auroras, or in mountains where weather might become harsh. I admit also that I am a die hard fan of OVF as I am too lazy to charge the battery every day or carry a dozen along for a trip. But that's just me myself.
But after thinking back how my 6 years old 5D mk III served my needs till today, I am just glad that canon helps me to not spend big money on pointless upgrading the camera lol
But sony have always got some bugs and the reliability is more of a question to me as I used to take the expensive cameras to shoot auroras, or in mountains where weather might become harsh. I admit also that I am a die hard fan of OVF as I am too lazy to charge the battery every day or carry a dozen along for a trip. But that's just me myself.
But after thinking back how my 6 years old 5D mk III served my needs till today, I am just glad that canon helps me to not spend big money on pointless upgrading the camera lol
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Loswr
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transpo1 said:
Has it? Remember in early 2017 when Sony announced that they were #2 in FF ILC sales? In one country. For two months. While they were offering discounts. Remember early this year when Nikon announced they were #1 in FF ILC sales? For one month of 2017. Soon after they launched a new FF ILC.
Who was #1 in FF ILC sales for the other 11 months of last year, and also for the full year in aggregate? Hint: the FF ILC market leader is the same company that leads the ILC market as a whole, and has for 14 years and counting.
So, what has changed, exactly?
Incidentally, Canon isn't coming out with a FF MILC because they're losing market share. If anything, they're doing so to gain even more...just as they did in the APS-C MILC segment.
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transpo1 said:
Do you really think that Canon decided to develop and release a FF mirrorless... on the basis of a camera that has just been announced?
That's crazy talk.
Besides which, the A73 is hardly changes anything from the A7R3. It's just a little cheaper and lower resolution. I'm sure there are plenty of Canon folks that would love for Canon to slim down 6D/5D/5DS into just two, like Sony -- higher and lower resolution, otherwise very similar, and separated by about a thousand bucks.
Of course Canon wants to have a FF mirrorless. They want a camera to sell to everyone who wants a camera, and clearly, there are some people who want a FF mirrorless. But like everything else, they do it on the schedule that they want to do it on, which drives some people kind of nuts
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Loswr
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Talys said:
I assumed transpo1 meant FF MILC in general. If he was actually suggesting that the A7III has changed the market or instigated Canon's FF MILC plans, that's beyond crazy, it's ridiculously asinine. But then, it's quite possible that's exactly what transpo1 was suggesting.
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I’m pretty sure that Canon decided to market a FF mirrorless camera at least 5 years ago. I am equally sure that they have researched the marketplace and know what customers both want, and what they will accept. I am even more sure that they know what Sony and Nikon are working on...
With that said, any new release will not “change the segment”
With that said, any new release will not “change the segment”
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neuroanatomist said:
Nevertheless, Canon executives themselves have recently noted “increased competition” and admitted failures in not seeing the penetration of 4K and have thus corrected their strategy with products like the M50. And now they are developing a FF mirrorless, all of which indicates that the market segment is being redefined and will continue to be redefined by a future FF Canon and Nikon mirrorless. Sony has changed the market segment whether they are number one in FF sales or not, by leading the way with FF mirrorless. They are the ones who have paved the way for FF mirrorless and shown Canon and Nikon that there is money to be made here.
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neuroanatomist said:
Since transpo1 is here, he should speak for himself, but given the topic of the thread, I read "it" to be A7iii, in:
transpo1 said:
I find both assertions pretty ridiculous - (a) that the A7iii is such a monumental product that it has forever changed the full frame market and that (b) had Sony not built the A7iii, that Canon would not bother developing and releasing a full frame mirrorless.
Crazy talk!!
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hmatthes said:
OK so I have to ask you,so what?
Not to be a snarky jerk, how does this change anything for you personally?
For me, it is interesting, but I wouldn't cash out of the Canon ecosystem. There will always be a new and improved, but there will not always be a reason to buy.
So, why is a "FF Mirrorless Needed in 2018?" It would be good, but better if it was awesome, but then, it may not be a commercial success for Canon.
Scott
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Talys said:
Guys and gals, I’m not talking about the A7III. I’m talking about the fact that when I walk around NYC these days or go to an event like last year’s Tribeca Film Festival, I see more people walking around with Sony FF MILCs than anything else. Now, I’m sure Sony is dwarfed at sporting events by Canon and Nikon, but there is a buzz surrounding Sony FF MILC that is undeniable. And it was happening before the A7III. Now, it may be that Sony are currently the only game in town and when Canon / Nikon come out with their FF MILC, Sony will lose any market share they have. But to suggest that Sony has not paved the way for the FF MILC market is the only really ludicrous thought here.
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One assertion I've made repeatedly (and I believe others have, also) is that Canon looks at trends and trajectories, not point-in-time. I think it's clear from both MFT and Sony improvements that there is a trajectory toward MILC being ready for pro use. At this point, the Sony FF offerings seem to have hit that transition for some people. What this Canon announcement really proves is that Canon has not been sitting on the MILC sidelines twiddling its thumbs, but carefully watching the tech and the market. They seem to be prepared to enter the market at the right time. We'll have to see how the new Sony performs, and how the Canon FF MILC compares. All I can say in summary is that competition is great for us consumers, and I hope that both the Sony and the Canon are great products.transpo1 said:
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Loswr
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transpo1 said:
Yes, Sony paved the way...in the sense that they couldn't compete with Canon/Nikon in the dSLR market and were forced to focus on a market where Canon/Nikon were not engaged. That seems more like desperation than innovation
'Buzz' is only helpful if it drives sales, and based on market share that doesn't seem to be helping Sony significantly. There was a lot of buzz around the EOS M lineup, too...almost all of it strongly negative. Yet Canon went from no MILCs to #2 globally in the segment in just a few years. So much for the effect of 'buzz'.
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transpo1 said:
The problem is, you're lumping full frame mirrorless buyers all together.
As I've said many times, the A7 is a great available-light tourist and travel camera, particularly if you pair cheap kit (light) lenses with a disproportionately priced body. In this case, it gives you the very best photos you can get out of crappy lenses, so you'll have the some of the highest dynamic range and highest resolution photos that nobody who isn't family cares about on flickr.
These combinations are geared towards people who don't care about distortion or corner sharpness, and are just happy that the subject in the middle is less grainy with less light. They like that they don't have to flip up a camera flash and blow out all the detail. For example, when they take a portrait, they could care less about basics, like choosing perspective, crop that enhances the photo, placement of fingers, lean, direction of light versus pose, or taking out harsh shadows under the chin. They are not interested in thinking before taking a photograph. They just want to press the shutter, and have the camera do its magic.
That's fine. They still buy cameras, so gear should be marketed towards that segment.
It's just not my market segment -- I'm a hobbyist who sees amazing photography online and in magazines, and aspires to gain experience and learn techniques that allow me to take photographs that are memorable and that amaze.
In this pursuit, it is a hindrance to have a camera that isn't ergonomically built for lenses that I'd typically choose to mount -- even in portraiture focal lengths, they're not small lenses, and just don't fit something like an A7 body very well. I expect that there are many professionals who use their cameras as tools day in and out who would feel the same way about ergonomics.
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