Full Frame Mirrorless in the Works [CR2]

[bedford]

Canon working on FF mirrorless? So they have some spare capacity in R&D? Interesting.
Shouldn't they be working on the 1Dx II, 5D IV and 6D II?

Oliver

 

[DigiAngel]

How hard can it be to build a pro level body, somewhere between a rebel and a 5D in size, with familiar control scheme, EF mount and nice big EVF?

because thats where the whole mirrorless train is going anyway when you talk fullframe fast glass. why build a second system with new mount, when the lenses will be the same size as they are on DSLRs anyway?

 

[deleteme]

If you mean ILCs on the US, no way. Canon Rebel is still #1 entry level seller far ahead of any mirrorless options in the US.

Entry level is where newbies start and Rebels and the entry level Nikons rule this space. However, as they get more involved they cannot help but feel the pull of the cheerleading for Sony despite its lack of lens line and accessories.

Canon and Nikon cannot afford to abdicate what they see as the traditional upgrade route in their respective lines. Thus they need to offer mirrorless as an alternative to Sony's offerings. The 1Dx and D4s are superb cameras but to increasing numbers of people are seen as yesterday's news.

 

[Sporgon]

Keep in mind one very important 'specific attribute' that dSLRs have, which is lacking in mirrorless: popularity.

;D. ;D. Glad your back to put things into perspective !

In the varied photographic circles I move in those that are the strongest advocates of mirrorless 'professional' cameras are those who are into, and love the latest tech, as well as living their lives on the net, and see the reflex design as 'old'. But the majority who just want a camera to take pictures perceive the EVF as a cheap substitute for an slr.

EVFs are getting better and offer more distracting information that can certainly be useful, and Canon could easily produce a combi dslr/mirrorless if they felt it would be profitable. They have the DPAF: personally I've always felt that they will use this for more than video in the 70D. It would be possible to have an interchangeable pentaprism finder with an alternative EVF. Fit the latter and the mirror automatically locks up and you can have all the pretty information in the viewfinder that you want, coupled with the accuracy of the DPAF. The only thing is the camera will be thicker than mirrorless only bodies, but you'll have all the other benefits that 'Everyone' wants. Except 'Everyone' might turn out to be a lower number than the name suggests.

 

[Dylan777]

No pro is going to walk over to this system without that killer 70-200 f/2.8 or 85 f/1.4, ==> How did you come with that?

and once they have that lens, they'll need to hold on to it somehow. ==> How about we hold it with our “hands and fingers”

I've used an adapted M/M2 with my 70-200/2.8 and 85/1.2L...it's an ergonomic nightmare.

M and M2 body are very much similar. It feels like a point & shoot body. The grip is tiny. There is not so much custom buttons to assign to. On top of that, AF speed is not really Canon standard, or should I say today mirrorless standard.

With all that factors, putting a f1.2 or 70-200 f2.8 zoom lens through an adapter on M/M2 of course you should feel "ergonomic nightmare". Canon seems to learn that lesson and improved in M3 grip.

I have shot a7 with native F4 70-200. Although it's not the best ergonomic when comparing to 5D3 etc...but it's no where near "ergonomic nightmare". I assigned left, right, down and center buttons on my a7s and a7r II as AF point selection(kinda like joystick on 1dx). This way, moving AF point is much faster.

 

[ahsanford]

How hard can it be to build a pro level body, somewhere between a rebel and a 5D in size, with familiar control scheme, EF mount and nice big EVF?

because thats where the whole mirrorless train is going anyway when you talk fullframe fast glass. why build a second system with new mount, when the lenses will be the same size as they are on DSLRs anyway?

On wider lenses (say 24-50mm), you actually get a nice size savings over SLR, i.e. body thickness is a bigger percentage of the aggregate lens + body length in that case, so native FF mirrorless mount lenses pay a bigger dividend there.

But once you shoot for the big aperture primes or longer FL zooms, there really is no upside to going to svelte new mount. At that point, yes, you are correct -- sticking with a native EF mount distance to the sensor makes sense.

We could see a very simple hybrid position taken by Canon: offer an FF mirrorless platform with a very small flange distance and (as many expect) put an EF adaptor right in the box (or sell separately at time of launch). But instead of migrating towards a fully new mount native portfolio of lenses, they may just offer us 2-4 very nice small native lenses and they stop there -- if you want a smaller rig, but one of the new native mount lenses, but everyone else will shoot plain old EF glass through an adaptor.

- A

 

[kalieaire]

I've already replaced my 5D3 as my walk around camera with an Olympus EM5. The 1 series is being replaced by the A7R-II very soon. The only thing I cannot replace is my P25+ on my Hasselblad.

I absolutely cannot see Canon coming through with anything that resembles cutting edge, bleeding edge, or something that will meet my needs with whatever comes out next.

If anyone has ever even shot with Nikon, Sony, or even Phase One or Hasselblad would probably have seen the light with regard to shadow and highlight recovery. There's simply more information and data there that can be pulled back making the "film" look come out even cleaner than whatever Canon can give me.

Unless Canon comes out with something ground breaking/earth shattering/paradigm shifting, I can see their company not doing too well with regard to their share of the camera market. Kinda makes me sad because I still like their glass, but mainly the 85L.

If it weren't for the 85L, I probably wouldn't have stuck around with Canon so long.

 

[pwp]

Canon is so late to the party, this rumored release will have to be truly groundbreaking to swing the attention of photographers across the planet back from the competition.

While most of my stills work happens on 5D3 & 1 Series bodies, my eyes have been opened to the potential of mirrorless with my mostly-video Panasonic GH4. While the stills files are surprisingly good for the sensor size, I still can't work anywhere near as fast as I can with a premium DSLR, mainly because of the ever so slightly laggy EVF. Once EVF's have matured sufficiently which must be just moments away, the mirrorless category will just fly, leaving DSLR's in the museum with twin-lens Rollieflexes and Speed-Graphics.

So if this rumored body is FF, has a best in the business EVF, takes our EF glass and is truly pitched at professionals I'll be first in line with a pre-order.

-pw

 

[Aglet]

So if this rumored body is FF, has a best in the business EVF, takes our EF glass and is truly pitched at professionals I'll be first in line with a pre-order.

.. or will Canon pull-a-Canon and deliver a crippled body with less that stellar IQ and overall performance and still sell container loads of them just because, you know, it's a Canon?

Frankly, I'm a little surprised at all the amount of ML bashing going on, especially for a rumored Canon product.
ML has it uses, right now. It's a little different, has many feature advantages over mirror-flappers, and only a few disadvantages which only affect a small segment of all possible users.
IMO, ML has already beaten the SLR at nearly everything that matters except market share. And about the only reason for that is Canon, Nikon and Pentax make crappy, overpriced, and oddly niche ML products (mostly) respectively.
Canon has to tread carefully in the ML market as they have to devise how to keep that large segment of Rebel customers continuing to buy into the Canon cult. Offer a teaser like a FF ML body that's grossly overpriced but attention-getting (the Rebel-esque crowd goes, "Oooh!"), then offer a better version of the M (with EVF) a year after that at a reasonable prince point (The Rebel-esque crowd goes, "Ahh!").

Canon shareholders keep smiling and the cash rolls in while the juggernaut transitions to ML systems that will meet the needs for most users while retaining a line of DSLR products until even the old mirror-box devotees find that advances have made ML the better choice for their next purchase too.

Meanwhile, early adopters have been mostly enjoying the advantages of their ABC ML systems for years but the exciting quacking won't crescendo until the big brands start to deliver more compelling ML options.

 

[mkabi]

Anybody else see and think this fan-art is cool??? If this is how the FF Mirrorless will look, I am all in...

 

[AvTvM]

If Canon ever brings a FF MILC, it will probably look like the G5X ... just BIGGER ... should please all those wanting a big camera to hold onto ... and with a full-blown EF-mount up front ... for those millions of EF 800/5.6 lenses out there. ;D

I don't like this "AE-D" design either. Strongly dislike all that retro-styled stuff. Monofunctional time dials ... Never ever. I'd prefer Canon M3 design, but with EVF (in corner, like Sony A6000 or RX100), FF sensor, Canon user interface and Canon lenses. Design as sleek and non-retro as possible. Fully articulated touch screen, of course. No pop-up flash, no hotshoe, but built-in wireless RT flash commander.

Anybody else see and think this fan-art is cool??? If this is how the FF Mirrorless will look, I am all in...

 

[Maximilian]

Anybody else see and think this fan-art is cool??? If this is how the FF Mirrorless will look, I am all in...

Hi mkabi!

I can understand that people like this vintage style design.
And I also think that a 5D3 is way bigger than an AE-1 or else.
But the ergonomics of a 5D3 are way better than those of the AE-1 and lenses have become bigger and heavier as for AF and IS and so on. And you will get small lenses only for the tradeoff of losing wide aperture and then I am out.
If it's only about external size and not about sensor size combined with wide aperture to have all control of DOF, then better switch over to m4/3. Here you have a real size advantage.

Back to this concept:
I wouldn't buy such a vintage mirrorless FF because of the ergonomics.
If Canon could make a decent compromise between small size and good ergonomics esp. a grip big enough for normal hands then i am in. Even with a 40 mm STM pancake the body + lens combo is that deep that you won't lose any depth because of adding a grip.

Everything else (vintage stlye) is for showcase or ego. But not for good and efficient photography.

Edit: when i see that s*****g ISO dial all the bad curses from the 80ies come back to me when I was trying to change value. That is a perfect example of bad ergonomics, esp. when you need it more often like nowadays.

 

[moreorless]

Not true at all, and i say that as owner of 100+ expensive Canon products. You can assign app. 10 buttons on an A7RII camera, have a third weel just for ISO and can work way faster than with any Canon camera. Ergonomics and battery life are perfect if you use a handgrip for 100 bucks and beat any 5D3. The Sony system has flaws, but so many advantages from focus peaking to modern 4k video to in-body-stabilisation to swivel screen, that you will extremely miss in current Canon products.

And the reason behind is the company's strategies. Sony and Panasonic said: in our top products like the A7R2 or GH4 we give out all features that are available for the money. Canon does artificially limit products, so they think they will make the people buy 3 products instead of 1 to have the same features. But many won't do that anymore. Canon should wake up and at least release a 5D4 with better specs than expected. 4K 60fps video, and not something less because they want to protect a 1DX2 for example. Also why not have a 5D4 lineup with two bodies, so one can have a swivel screen? That's the minimum they need to come up with.

Granted I shoot Nikon these days but I use a lot more than 10 buttons on my D810, movig to an A7 camera would mean a lot more lengthy menu diving, then of course you have issue with grip size.

Recently I would say the opposite with Sony, they seem to be charging a similar price to high end Canon and Nikon single gripped DSLR's whilst offering handling beyond entry level FF. Its the same with the lenses, there limiting the max aperture and zoom range to save size and then charging you as much as a faster or wider zoom range lens.

The latter works well with gearheads who couldn't bring themselves to buy something that wasn't the top end of the system so look past smaller DSLR lenses and bodies but go for Sony because there isn't anything above to make them feel inferior.

 

[Dylan777]

Anybody else see and think this fan-art is cool??? If this is how the FF Mirrorless will look, I am all in...

I'll buy two - one for left hand and one for right hand 8)

 

[AvTvM]

Rather than pseudo/vintage/retro camera designs with big knurled, but monofunctional dials for only one parameter. I'd like to finally see "smart, multifunctional dials" with context-sensitive visual feedback ... similar to this concept:

Instead of retro looks I'd much prefer a FF MILC along the lines of Vladimir Markovs 2012 design vision for future mirrorless cameras:

http://photorumors.com/2012/03/23/interesting-mirrorless-camera-concept/

However, since it is Canon we are talking about, a FF mirrorless body might either look like a G5X on steroids or even worse ...

http://photorumors.com/2010/07/29/canon-evil-concept/

 

[Lee Jay]

Anybody else see and think this fan-art is cool??? If this is how the FF Mirrorless will look, I am all in...

At some point, I'd like someone to explain the aesthetic attractiveness of a simple little box.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

Anybody else see and think this fan-art is cool??? If this is how the FF Mirrorless will look, I am all in...

At some point, I'd like someone to explain the aesthetic attractiveness of a simple little box.

The obvious point is that different styles and sizes appeal to different photographers. Those who try to tell others that they are wrong in preferring their favorite style or design are not going to convince them. We have all the various styles and designs because they appeal to different people.

Where it really gets silly, is when name calling begins.

 

[ahsanford]

Again, I see the following chain of logic with FF mirrorless:

EF lenses will work on this thing, and even if they didn't, any FF lens at 200mm or quick like f/1.4 or f/1.2 will be large and heavy (other than, say, the odd double-gauss 50mm design). That weight needs to be controlled, so a stout grip is a certainty in my mind. Maybe not 1D/5D chunky, but stout enough to wield 200mm FF relatively comfortably -- anything bigger would naturally want a vertical grip or tripod collar + monopod.

Also think about all the Canon creature comforts a $2k+ rig will have: top LCD, knobs in the right places, etc. I don't see Canon going all Leica SL concept car futuristic, and I don't see them going Canon AE retro as it will create a pain point in using this camera in conjunction with SLRs. I imagine it will heavily leverage Canon's very strong ergonomics to provide a familiar feature set to existing Canon SLR users and to provide a fairly seamless experience for multiple camera carrying photographers who might need to regularly toggle between their 1D/5D and this new mirrorless option.

All of that -- to me -- says to expect something between the 70D and the 6D in terms of control layout and grip size. That doesn't mean the entire rig will be that big -- they have to show off the mirrorless skinny/sexy aspects somehow -- but I expect a top LCD and a chunky grip.

- A

 

[Dylan777]

Anybody else see and think this fan-art is cool??? If this is how the FF Mirrorless will look, I am all in...

At some point, I'd like someone to explain the aesthetic attractiveness of a simple little box.

The obvious point is that different styles and sizes appeal to different photographers. Those who try to tell others that they are wrong in preferring their favorite style or design are not going to convince them. We have all the various styles and designs because they appeal to different people.

Where it really gets silly, is when name calling begins.

+1 with Mt Spokane Photography

 

[ashmadux]

"It was also priced a little too high to be competitive, and sales lagged. Interest (if not profits) got a temporary boost in the North American market in the middle of 2013 when the “firesale” began that saw the price drop by well more than half. I jumped in at that point, and found that despite some obvious shortcomings the camera was actually very, very useful. I’ve used it in multiple countries as a lighter option when I didn’t want to carry heavier kit, and I’ve added a bunch of images to my personal portfolio that I think are fantastic. The sensor on it was good – really good, in fact. It put other crop sensor bodies that I used to shame in the image quality department."


Thx Dustin.

This, this, this.

Im quite confident that most who criticize the M has never used it- at all. And most of us are not coming from 1dx's or Olympus or whatever higher order kit.

FOR TAKING PHOTOS, the camera is a little beast- and the M3, that much more so. Indeed, it coudl be better, but if it doesn tfit your needs, then you must look elsewhere, no?

For the touch screen/ no evf haters, there's ano hope for you. You can squawk about having ONLY that one magic build your looking for- and you will keep looking. The Olympus offerings are incredible, with blinding fast Af- but there's no way in hell im investing in a m43, much less Olympus with obscure lenses and customer service that cant match canon. Nope, sorry.

The g5x will be more up some of you guys alley, but lol, cant wait for the complaintrain for that one either. That tiny lil camera feels great and the fully articulating screen is boos.

It's a tool. Admittedly, I bought in when it was dirt cheap, but it continues to be a incredible investment, and the 5d3 can stay at home 90% of the time.