Gordon Laing explains the updates in firmware v1.1.0 for the Canon EOS R5

mppix

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Feb 13, 2018
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It is indeed basically free to add one into the silicon, but you have to know what you're doing and actually talk to the software people. During my time at a silicon vendor we had multiple SoCs that had sensors on silicon. But all mention of that was scrubbed from datasheets and software, since a lot of mistakes were made:
  • putting it in the 'wrong' place on the die, next to a coprocessor that consumes a lot of power
  • playing with the sensor design so readings between different revisions don't match
  • forgetting to document the gates that disable it by default
And more. This was because at design time there was no requirement for a temperature sensor. These SoCs were considered 'low power', so thermal management wasn't strictly needed.
I can totally see this happening but 'low power' is also relative. When Canon designed the Digic X with its design power (I'd estimate it somewhere around 5W based on power consumption), they must have realized very early on that thermals will be challenging. In this case, engineers tend to put more sensors in the package and make sure that software engineers can implement their thermal models to track temperature as well as possible.

Also, there's a big difference between these 2 sentences:
  1. "There are 3 sensors, which we use in the algorithm"
  2. "There are 3 sensors which we use in the algorithm"
I don't think we can be certain that there are only 3 sensors in the camera, just that Canon UK told Gordon that 3 are being used. And I suspect a lot of details are getting lost in the chain from Canon.jp engineer → Canon.jp marketing → Canon.uk marketing → Gordon.
Someone else suggested that "3" may refer to the discrete sensors. I could believe that they have 3 discrete sensors in addition to anywhere between 2-10+ integrated ones...
 
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Jethro

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Really excellent review! Comprehensive and honest (I liked his separate review of the photography mode as well). Interesting about the enhanced ability to do 30 second clips with the firmware upgrade.
 

canonnews

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No, a microchip runs tens or more degrees hotter than its ambient, especially when doing something like transcoding 8K.
the CPU isn't encoding. they would have a descreet h.265 encoder DSP built into DIGIC X for that. h.265 is actually easier to encode than it is to decode. and RAW of course is even easier.

we have no idea what temperatures canon is worried about but with three or more sensors, it's more than just core temp.
 
Yes but that was in a air con appt, with temp probably below the Canon rating of 23 degrees. So the fan would have been blowing cool air, and the Aircon unit when I used that, was at 18 deg and on turbo mode :) :)

We need to see if others find similar values, in case somehow I messed up, but I did try and keep everything consisent

I'm gonna do some more tests tomorrow to see if it holds true.
I did another quick test today (same settings video & camera - 8K25 etc)

Test 1 - 25m 43s - baseline

15mins on USB fan - restored to 15 mins of shooting according to the screen

Test 2 - 25m 37s - screen flipped out 180 degrees to the side of the camera (DPR member wanted the comparison).

The USB fan in an aircon appt definitely works well, and the screen didnt appear to make any difference to the recording.

I will try a test with IBIS and Auto Focus to see how much that impacts but the sun is out and is beckoning... :) :)
 

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RayValdez360

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Since the sensors actually work now, couldnt a person do a hardware mod to keep it cool now? Like thermal paste, pads, or a little ventilation
 

mppix

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the CPU isn't encoding. they would have a descreet h.265 encoder DSP built into DIGIC X for that. h.265 is actually easier to encode than it is to decode. and RAW of course is even easier.
Cameras dont have cpus, they have microprocessors. Of course they transcode in hardware; that hw generates heat...

we have no idea what temperatures canon is worried about but with three or more sensors, it's more than just core temp.
What I said last post, paraphrased.
 
Cameras dont have cpus, they have microprocessors. Of course they transcode in hardware; that hw generates heat...
I am splitting hairs here, but the microprocessor (Digic) on Canons contains at least 1 ARM core do they not and that ARM core is the CPU? Other parts of the silicon handle I/O and video or Image processing functions, AF functions, and presumably the touch screen....
 
I did another quick test today (same settings video & camera - 8K25 etc)

Test 1 - 25m 43s - baseline

15mins on USB fan - restored to 15 mins of shooting according to the screen

Test 2 - 25m 37s - screen flipped out 180 degrees to the side of the camera (DPR member wanted the comparison).

The USB fan in an aircon appt definitely works well, and the screen didnt appear to make any difference to the recording.

I will try a test with IBIS and Auto Focus to see how much that impacts but the sun is out and is beckoning... :) :)
I know I am an edge case (or nut case, or both :D ), but for anyone else who may fit the category. I spent a couple of hours in the Aviary this afternoon.

I shot about 1000 pics, and 20 clips at 8k25 totally 16 mins - no overheating. I did flip to using a 5DsR from time to time, and left the fan pointing at the R5 body. We had just had a thunderstorm, so no doubt that helped - probably around 24 deg C and 70 percent humidity. But for my use cases, mainly stills and some video, firmware 1.1 makes that quite possible now.
 

mppix

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Feb 13, 2018
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I am splitting hairs here, but the microprocessor (Digic) on Canons contains at least 1 ARM core do they not and that ARM core is the CPU? Other parts of the silicon handle I/O and video or Image processing functions, AF functions, and presumably the touch screen....
AFAIK, Digic is an application-specific integrated circuit (ASIC). You are right, it almost certainly has a general purpose processor of the "embedded kind," capable of running ARM instruction sets. Not sure how fully-fledged it is; do you know what core they use?

In my work, we tend to distinguish CPU that are capable of running some form of general purpose OS (e.g. RaspberryPI) and microcontroller units (MCU) that are often real-time oriented but run at most some rudimentary "OS" (e.g. Arduino).
This may not be the generally accepted definition so apologies if that comment is easy to misunderstand.
 
AFAIK, Digic is an application-specific integrated circuit (ASIC). You are right, it almost certainly has a general purpose processor of the "embedded kind," capable of running ARM instruction sets. Not sure how fully-fledged it is; do you know what core they use?

In my work, we tend to distinguish CPU that are capable of running some form of general purpose OS (e.g. RaspberryPI) and microcontroller units (MCU) that are often real-time oriented but run at most some rudimentary "OS" (e.g. Arduino).
This may not be the generally accepted definition so apologies if that comment is easy to misunderstand.
Gotcha, thanks

The only info I could find on Arm cores unsurprisingly, came from CHDK around the Digic 6 / 7


What I didnt realise is they possibly have a separate "gpu" managing the screen, also licensed, and perhaps also on Digic or a discreet chip? I'm thinking that for IP reasons, Canon would probably prefer not to have other manufacturers chips visible, therefore integration onto Digic keeps it all hidden unless you go poking around inside programmatically.

And the white paper on the IDX III from Canon

Improved noise-reduction processing.
•Sharpness-based image processing.
•Dedicated sections (“blocks”) of the processor for specific Dual PixelCMOS AF tasks, and for subject detection (including the new Head Detection AF, and AF tracking capabilities for both viewfinder and Live View shooting).

•Image processing performance up to approximately 3.1x fasterthan two DIGIC 6+ processors.
•Continuous processing speeds up to approximately 380x fasterthan two DIGIC 6+ processors.
•A significant reduction in power consumption vs. previous Dual DIGIC 6+ processors.


Of course which of those improvements are due to reduction in fab size, improved algorithms in hw or where I don't know. So extrapolation between the Digic 6 / 7 and the X will have to wait until someone can "hack" a lower end model ie not in a mirrorless or dslr.
 

TheSalvatore

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Jun 18, 2020
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How is bypassing a measure put in to maintain reliability ‘PROMISING’? It looks moronic to me. One thing I do know, I will never buy a secondhand R5, god only knows what moronic bypasses might have been used on it to mistreat it.
Then don't. It's for those that already purchased the R5.
 

privatebydesign

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Then don't. It's for those that already purchased the R5.
You miss the point, for many people the reliability of Canon cameras is not only a purchasing positive but also it is good when it becomes time to sell. If no end of idiots are deliberately working around features designed to maintain reliability just so they can use their cameras outside the design specs it is going to have an impact on everybody including me, and that pisses me off.

i suspect a combination of several things will happen, the purchase price of the camera will stay high, the secondhand value will be lower than other Canon cameras, warranty claims normally covered will be refused for any and every possible technicality, the R5 will get a reputation as unreliable (which will be unfair because many failures will be because people are working around the design limits).

i truthfully don’t understand all this bullshit. I get the tool for the job, in many cases the tools I use are overkill but that is what I invest in for reliability and customer service. If I am asked to do an 8k production, however casual, there is no way on earth I am using an R5 as an A camera, it is not what it is designed for so I am not doing my customer, or myself, any favors.
 
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TheSalvatore

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You miss the point, for many people the reliability of Canon cameras is not only a purchasing positive but also it is good when it becomes time to sell. If no end of idiots are deliberately working around features designed to maintain reliability just so they can use their cameras outside the design specs it is going to have an impact on everybody including me, and that pisses me off.

i suspect a combination of several things will happen, the purchase price of the camera will stay high, the secondhand value will be lower than other Canon cameras, warranty claims normally covered will be refused for any and every possible technicality, the R5 will get a reputation as unreliable (which will be unfair because many failures will be because people are working around the design limits).

i truthfully don’t understand all this bullshit. I get the tool for the job, in many cases the tools I use are overkill but that is what I invest in for reliability and customer service. If I am asked to do an 8k production, however casual, there is no way on earth I am using an R5 as an A camera, it is not what it is designed for so I am not doing my customer, or myself, any favors.
Yes I do get what you meant. But what I'm trying to say is for those that already have the R5 and doesn't mind having this to work around with, "if ever" Canon releases any firmware to eliminate the overheating issue. Because it's really a pain in the ass for this current issue. :) Yes I also agreed with you that the 8K is overkilling.
 

privatebydesign

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Yes I do get what you meant. But what I'm trying to say is for those that already have the R5 and doesn't mind having this to work around with, "if ever" Canon releases any firmware to eliminate the overheating issue. Because it's really a pain in the ass for this current issue. :) Yes I also agreed with you that the 8K is overkilling.
You are still missing the point, IT IS NOT AN OVERHEATING ISSUE, IT IS A DESIGN LIMITATION. If the design limits your use then get something else that doesn’t.
 
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