Hint about what to expect from Canon's step into full frame mirrorless?

unfocused

EOS-1D X Mark III
Jul 20, 2010
6,722
4,662
68
Springfield, IL
www.mgordoncommunications.com
fullstop said:
simple. Digital cameras don#t need mirrors in them. For film SLRs it was the only way to "see and meter thru the lens". Outdated early 20th century reflex technology has only managed to drag itself into the 21st century because the market dominating CaNikon duopoly found they can really easy money by selling iteration after iteration of marginally improved, same old stuff and cream off people with that, until they eventually might move to a more "digitally adequate" future-proof, mirrorless design concept...

...I want a good, compact FF mirrorless system. Soon now. That's all I care about. It does not matter to me whether millions of others want to cling onto their DSLRs for dear life...

...But Canon and Nikon have been refusing to take my money and that of many others ...we are being DENIED just that.

...Yes, I am a tad bit angry. OMG! But me [and many other "average amateur/enthusiast" people] are just totally fed up how Canon and Nikon have been BLOCKING the development of mirrorless cameras and refused to offer us decent mirrorless cameras for so long...

...Demand is there. Lots of it. Supply side on Canon and Nikon side is what sucks!..

...I truly hope, Sony will take market leadership from Canon...Conservative money milkers have not deserved any better.

END RANT.

You do realize, I hope, that your rant sounds like a crazy conspiracy theoy.

Isn't it a much more logical and reasonable explanation that Canon and Nikon are conservative companies that have not wanted to jump into a market that is unproven, and especially, have not wanted to jump into such a market with technology that has so many compromises that it would damage their hard-earned brand reputation to release an inferior product until the technology is reliable?

Isn't it also logical that they have been content to watch Sony expend millions (possibly billions) experimenting in the marketplace, while they conserve resources until the market and technology is ready?

And, finally, if you really don't care about what technology others choose, why are you so insistent on insulting and denigrating competing technologies and the users of those technologies?
 

Orangutan

EOS 5D Mark IV
Sep 25, 2010
2,140
4
fullstop said:
But Canon and Nikon have been refusing to take my money and that of many others
You've answered your own question: if they're not "taking your money" it can only be because they don't think there's enough money to take in that segment of the market. And no, you do not know more than they do about market demand.

Yours is a niche need for now. That will change at some point. Until then you may buy or not buy.
 

Orangutan

EOS 5D Mark IV
Sep 25, 2010
2,140
4
unfocused said:
Durf said:
unfocused said:
Why is it that the mirrorless fans seem to be such zealots, to the point of insisting that everyone must convert to their way of thinking? Maybe, it's just a few very vocal participants on this forum, but I fail to see what difference it makes.

What prize is going to be awarded to AvTvM/fullstop if mirrorless dominates the market? (which I have serious doubt will happen anytime in the foreseeable future.) I see no evidence that the market cannot support both technologies.

This bizarre "my way or the highway" behavior is not just limited to several obsessed mirrorless camera junkies only, just watch CNN, MSNBC, etc etc for a little while.....

Yes, but one could argue that in the realm of public policy there is some justification because the arguments (in at least some cases) have significant real world implications for sizable percentages of the population. Sometimes people need to step back and acknowledge that camera technology is at its core, insignificant in the grand scheme of things. (I enjoy a spirited debate over camera esoteria as much as anyone, but really, some folks get so carried away it's unhealthy.)

+10
 

3kramd5

EOS R6
Mar 2, 2012
3,084
405
unfocused said:
Why is it that the mirrorless fans seem to be such zealots, to the point of insisting that everyone must convert to their way of thinking? Maybe, it's just a few very vocal participants on this forum, but I fail to see what difference it makes.

It's similar to militant vegans. As long as other people are eating meat, humans will continue to slaughter animals, which is insufferable.

As long as there are people who recognize the benefits a reflex camera brings in some (not all) situations, the evildoers are canon will continue to produce them rather than mirrorless cameras (excepting the EOS M, M2, M3, M5, M6, M10, M50, M100, and upcoming full frame line).

Speaking as a newly-mined canon marking guy or shill (who knew they were paying me? I'll have to go check the back of my mailbox for all the checks I haven't cashed), I am not sure I believe at least one of these critics, with his many esoteric and ever-changing specific requirements, is actually in the market.

I am in the market. I would legitimately buy a camera which had both EVF and OVF (something a camera with a mirror is uniquely capable of). My experience using an EVF for about two years put me off of them for the time being as the negatives outweighed the positives, even though the positives were great in some scenarios. However, I'll go ahead and give it another shot after a development cycle or two. Because I'm actually a camera buyer.
 

Talys

Canon R5
CR Pro
Feb 16, 2017
2,111
416
Vancouver, BC
Orangutan said:
unfocused said:
Durf said:
unfocused said:
Why is it that the mirrorless fans seem to be such zealots, to the point of insisting that everyone must convert to their way of thinking? Maybe, it's just a few very vocal participants on this forum, but I fail to see what difference it makes.

What prize is going to be awarded to AvTvM/fullstop if mirrorless dominates the market? (which I have serious doubt will happen anytime in the foreseeable future.) I see no evidence that the market cannot support both technologies.

This bizarre "my way or the highway" behavior is not just limited to several obsessed mirrorless camera junkies only, just watch CNN, MSNBC, etc etc for a little while.....

Yes, but one could argue that in the realm of public policy there is some justification because the arguments (in at least some cases) have significant real world implications for sizable percentages of the population. Sometimes people need to step back and acknowledge that camera technology is at its core, insignificant in the grand scheme of things. (I enjoy a spirited debate over camera esoteria as much as anyone, but really, some folks get so carried away it's unhealthy.)

+10

Sadly, we're living in an increasingly tribalistic society. Mirrorless vs DSLR, EVF vs OVF, Canon vs Sony -- you can plug in any of the things you see on television daily, like progressives versus conservatives or free trade versus protectionism, or even iPhone vs Android or Windows versus OSX. People get entrenched in their positions and fight like hell to defend it.

I'm actually fine with people taking firm positions, though, of course, I prefer to have conversations with people with an open mind. However, I take major issue with folks whos response to a losing argument is to make stuff up, refuse to accept facts, and to ignore provable science.


unfocused said:
fullstop said:
...
END RANT.

You do realize, I hope, that your rant sounds like a crazy conspiracy theoy.

I sincerely doubt that :)
 

BillB

EOS R
May 11, 2017
1,393
659
neuroanatomist said:
fullstop said:
END RANT.

Promise? ::)

Well, there will be another one, if experience is any guide. I have to admit to a certain curiosity as to what will be the next episode. The M50 battery tizzy did explore some new possibilities, it seems to me. Of course we can expect reruns. Lots of reruns.
 

fullstop

EOS R
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
153
unfocused said:
Isn't it a much more logical and reasonable explanation that Canon and Nikon are conservative companies that have not wanted to jump into a market that is unproven, and especially, have not wanted to jump into such a market with technology that has so many compromises that it would damage their hard-earned brand reputation to release an inferior product until the technology is reliable?

guess what. I expect the upcoming Canon (and Nikon) FF mirrorless cameras to be 1st gen and in many ways just as "rough around the edges" as Sony's first 2 generations of A7 mirrorless cameras. Only that CaNikon come 7 years later.

But, of course it is just a crazy conspiracy theory and infallible Canon may bring a stunning "really right", all-round best-in-class mirrorless FF system. Because Canon being Canon, they know best. ;D :p
 

BillB

EOS R
May 11, 2017
1,393
659
fullstop said:
guess what. I expect the upcoming Canon (and Nikon) FF mirrorless cameras to be 1st gen and in many ways just as "rough around the edges" as Sony's first 2 generations of A7 mirrorless cameras. Only that CaNikon come 7 years later.

But, of course it is just a crazy conspiracy theory and infallible Canon may bring a stunning "really right", all-round best-in-class mirrorless FF system. Because Canon being Canon, they know best. ;D :p

Your insight continues to amaze. Breathtaking.
 

Durf

Picture Taker - Image Maker
Canon's future FF Mirrorless could easily be a camera that totally competes and or out performs most anything on the market right now simply with it's DPAF w/eye tracking for both photos and video, LP-EN6 battery, awesome 1080p capability, and a minimum 4K at 24fps capability. That's all they'd have to do in my opinion to basically hit a home run with this 1st edition FF Mirrorless camera.

Will they do this? perhaps yes, perhaps no.......

Regardless of what they do though there will always be several that trash and bash it and complain that it isn't good enough.
 

dak723

EOS R
Oct 26, 2013
1,141
436
fullstop said:
simple. Digital cameras don#t need mirrors in them. For film SLRs it was the only way to "see and meter thru the lens". Outdated early 20th century reflex technology has only managed to drag itself into the 21st century because the market dominating CaNikon duopoly found they can really easy money by selling iteration after iteration of marginally improved, same old stuff and cream off people with that, until they eventually might move to a more "digitally adequate" future-proof, mirrorless design concept.

But then, along comes Sony and starts turning the tables on them. That was "totally uncalled for". LOL.

I want a good, compact FF mirrorless system. Soon now. That's all I care about. It does not matter to me whether millions of others want to cling onto their DSLRs for dear life or some people prefer to shoot film. There is more than enough choice for all of those guys. DSLRs and big lenses GALORE!

But Canon and Nikon have been refusing to take my money and that of many others [no, I am NOT alone!] who have been waiting for years for a decent FF mirrorless system to replace or complement (!) their big, chunky, mirrorslappers that today only offer advantages for a small minority of use cases that for some reason or other seem to be over-represented on this forum. Only a very small portion of all images are captured by sports photographers and even less by wildlife and BIF photographers. Nothing wrong with those fields of photograohy, quite to the opposite, and nothing wrong with people wanting to use DSLRs if they prefer them. But, the large group of people whho want to go without a mirror should also have a choice. And we are being DENIED just that.

Yes, I am a tad bit angry. OMG! But me [and many other "average amateur/enthusiast" people] are just totally fed up how Canon and Nikon have been BLOCKING the development of mirrorless cameras and refused to offer us decent mirrorless cameras for so long. Almost all Sony and Fujifilm mirrorless camera could have been a sale for Canon or Nikon. Sony did not have a large user group. Fuji had none for digital cameras. Vast majority of Sony/Fujifilm digital cameras are bought by (former) Canon or Nikon customers. Often as a supplementary system, but growing numbers have started to go fully mirrorless and turn their backs on CaNikon.

Demand is there. Lots of it. Supply side on Canon and Nikon side is what sucks!

I truly hope, Sony will take market leadership from Canon because of this and Nikon will hopefully go under as a whole. Conservative money milkers have not deserved any better.

END RANT.

Ah, finally, after pages and pages of baloney, we have come to the truth.

It's not about batteries at all. It's not about Canon nerfing or crippling its cameras. It's come down to the usual - I want a small compact FF mirrorless from Canon and they don't make one. :( :( :(

Of course, Canon and Nikon can not BLOCK anyone. How absurd is that? If you want a really good mirrorless camera, many are available. For non-FF, Canon makes an excellent M5. For cameras with more bells and whistles - and some fantastic lenses - you can go M4/3rds. And, needless to say, Sony is now in its 3rd generation of FF mirrorless - not really possible if Canon has BLOCKED mirrorless tech. So mirrorless technology is readily available - not BLOCKED at all. But all of the above solutions are not acceptable if the reason for someone's unhappiness is that they want a small compact FF mirrorless from Canon and they don't make one. :( :( :(

The funny thing is, both of the alleged co-conspirators are coming out with FF mirrorless with the next year. So why the rage, why the rant, why the bitterness?

I guess the answer is some folks want a small compact FF mirrorless from Canon NOW...
 

fullstop

EOS R
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
153
it is as much about Canon marketing nerfing their products. And about the whimpy LP-E12 in the EOS M50. I am going to buy one for my daughter as a gift. Or a Fujifilm X-T100I like almost everything about the Canon M50 better, except the battery charge. And for myself I want a decent FF mirrorless camera. More than enough DSLRs, not enough mirrorless FF cameras. That's the only problem as far as I am concerned. Rest is just observation of market trends. :)
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jul 21, 2010
26,901
6,170
Gee, it's really a bummer that no one makes the exact specific niche product I want. I know, I'll go on the internet and whine about it incessantly. Yeah, that'll work!
 

stevelee

FT-QL
CR Pro
Jul 6, 2017
2,270
973
Davidson, NC
Talys said:
Sadly, we're living in an increasingly tribalistic society. Mirrorless vs DSLR, EVF vs OVF, Canon vs Sony -- you can plug in any of the things you see on television daily, like progressives versus conservatives or free trade versus protectionism, or even iPhone vs Android or Windows versus OSX. People get entrenched in their positions and fight like hell to defend it.

It is the tribalism itself that bothers me. My political party began leaving me a long time ago. I finally registered as unaffiliated when I retired and needed to update my voting address here. They proceeded off the cliff since then. I still make fun of the main opposing party for sitting on their butts during elections, mainly 2010, and have confidence that they will still manage to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory as they are so talented at doing. There are genuine problems in our country and our world. Instead of addressing them, we get tribal games.

In the 1960s I got a Canon SLR because I couldn’t afford a Nikon. It served me well. About ten years ago I made an impulse purchase of a Rebel when I went into a store to look at TVs and washers and dryers for my home where I would later retire. I accumulated a few EF lenses in addition to EF-S, so that sticking with Canon was the course of least resistance as well as a financial decision, and I have been pleased by my purchases. It is not like I have a religious commitment to Canon or anything.

As I sit here missing church this morning, I don’t think I even have a religious commitment to my religion. The terrorists who have come closest to blowing me up were fellow Christians, so I am not inclined to rave on about other faiths. If my schedule had been different today, I would be playing the organ right now at a church of another denomination. I will play for them the next two Sundays and again in August.

Computers are different. I have used Macs since 1987 when I attended a summer workshop at Stanford and first used one. I am pleased the more family and friends who use Windows, since I can honestly beg off helping them with their tech problems. iOS devices work well for me for ecosystem reasons not unlike my EF situation. I don’t care what kind of phone anyone else uses. Why would I?

I read these mirrorless threads I guess for train wreck “can’t help looking” reasons, rather than for anything that is likely to be relevant to me in the next five years, maybe. If people want to use mirrorless and/or Sony cameras, that’s cool with me. I like the Sony electronics I use, and will probably buy more of their stuff.
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,617
1,643
3kramd5 said:
unfocused said:
Why is it that the mirrorless fans seem to be such zealots, to the point of insisting that everyone must convert to their way of thinking? Maybe, it's just a few very vocal participants on this forum, but I fail to see what difference it makes.

It's similar to militant vegans.

And CrossFit people here in the States. The joke here is "If you meet a Cross-Fit Vegan, what will they talk about first?" ;D

No malice towards any of them, they are simply super assertive about sharing what they are into. To each their own and I hope everyone is pursuing their happiness, but one can do that with respect to those who don't agree with them.

- A
 

Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
8,266
1,960
Canada
neuroanatomist said:
Gee, it's really a bummer that no one makes the exact specific niche product I want. I know, I'll go on the internet and whine about it incessantly. Yeah, that'll work!


Good idea!


I want a really tiny camera with a full frame sensor. It has to be the size of an M series camera, but needs to have the controls of a 5D4. It needs a tiny battery that gives twice the charge of the LP-6..... I want tiny F1.2 FF lenses and I want to be able to use an adaptor so that my crop kit lenses will work on a FF image circle WITHOUT vignetting. I want it to come with a fixed articulated screen and it should be the lowest priced camera in the Canon lineup, despite it's ability to shoot 8K video and burst mode of 120FPS.


Any failure to do this in the next 15 minutes means that Canon is *******!!!!! and that I shall go off in a huff and buy a Sony camera that meets none of the stated requirements......
 

3kramd5

EOS R6
Mar 2, 2012
3,084
405
Don Haines said:
neuroanatomist said:
Gee, it's really a bummer that no one makes the exact specific niche product I want. I know, I'll go on the internet and whine about it incessantly. Yeah, that'll work!


Good idea!


I want a really tiny camera with a full frame sensor. It has to be the size of an M series camera, but needs to have the controls of a 5D4. It needs a tiny battery that gives twice the charge of the LP-6..... I want tiny F1.2 FF lenses and I want to be able to use an adaptor so that my crop kit lenses will work on a FF image circle WITHOUT vignetting. I want it to come with a fixed articulated screen and it should be the lowest priced camera in the Canon lineup, despite it's ability to shoot 8K video and burst mode of 120FPS.


Any failure to do this in the next 15 minutes means that Canon is *******!!!!! and that I shall go off in a huff and buy a Sony camera that meets none of the stated requirements......

Don, you missed perhaps the most important aspect: no moving parts. That means the lenses shouldn’t be f/1.2 max, but something like f/1200 so they have adequate DOF to capture images without moving elements around.

Also, no oscillators. There must be a cable connection to a medical wristband enabling the user’s pulse to provide the reference clock.
 

Durf

Picture Taker - Image Maker
Don Haines said:
neuroanatomist said:
Gee, it's really a bummer that no one makes the exact specific niche product I want. I know, I'll go on the internet and whine about it incessantly. Yeah, that'll work!


Good idea!


I want a really tiny camera with a full frame sensor. It has to be the size of an M series camera, but needs to have the controls of a 5D4. It needs a tiny battery that gives twice the charge of the LP-6..... I want tiny F1.2 FF lenses and I want to be able to use an adaptor so that my crop kit lenses will work on a FF image circle WITHOUT vignetting. I want it to come with a fixed articulated screen and it should be the lowest priced camera in the Canon lineup, despite it's ability to shoot 8K video and burst mode of 120FPS.


Any failure to do this in the next 15 minutes means that Canon is *******!!!!! and that I shall go off in a huff and buy a Sony camera that meets none of the stated requirements......

I want firmware updates for my DSLR's so I can watch Netflix on my cameras while resting between taking photos of things.....it's ridiculous in this day and age that people can't watch movies on their cameras.

I bet Sony makes a camera that you can watch movies on next month.....
 

Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
8,266
1,960
Canada
3kramd5 said:
Don Haines said:
neuroanatomist said:
Gee, it's really a bummer that no one makes the exact specific niche product I want. I know, I'll go on the internet and whine about it incessantly. Yeah, that'll work!


Good idea!


I want a really tiny camera with a full frame sensor. It has to be the size of an M series camera, but needs to have the controls of a 5D4. It needs a tiny battery that gives twice the charge of the LP-6..... I want tiny F1.2 FF lenses and I want to be able to use an adaptor so that my crop kit lenses will work on a FF image circle WITHOUT vignetting. I want it to come with a fixed articulated screen and it should be the lowest priced camera in the Canon lineup, despite it's ability to shoot 8K video and burst mode of 120FPS.


Any failure to do this in the next 15 minutes means that Canon is *******!!!!! and that I shall go off in a huff and buy a Sony camera that meets none of the stated requirements......

Don, you missed perhaps the most important aspect: no moving parts. That means the lenses shouldn’t be f/1.2 max, but something like f/1200 so they have adequate DOF to capture images without moving elements around.

Also, no oscillators. There must be a cable connection to a medal wristband enabling the user’s pulse to provide the reference clock.


Nah, you just derive it from the GPS..... which is always on, yet consumes no battery power....
 

fullstop

EOS R
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
153
hehe! "whining for a niche product". We are talking about a "capable, compact and affordable Canon FF MILC" -
a product that definitely is "extremely niche". Absolutely nobody except me would buy such a camera from Canon. ;D

Canapologists can really be incredibly funny in their incessant apologizing efforts. :p ;D

Luckily I don't really suffer from Canon's refusal to offer "my extreme niche product". I just don't buy anything from them. Hurts them, not me.