How tightly do you frame your shots & and do you crop?

[Skirball]

it is of course OK to crop, rotate and fiddle with all the things PS and the others let you fiddle with. But I still believe you´ll become a better photographer if you try to frame things right from the start.

One other consideration is for stuff like commercial sports or weddings where you are doing it cheap. If you have to post process you are losing money.

I don't do that sort of work but I know people who do and I was surprised to learn they shot jpeg unto they explained that post processing cut into profits.

I don't follow. Surely more time spent PP = more billable time to the customer and therefore more profit!

For me I don't care how long it takes I'm not handing over trashy shots. Money comes and goes, reputation lasts a lot longer.

Hi Zv
I fully understand and agree with what you say about reputation, but would it not be true that a wedding (and possibly sports shooting) would be contracted to a fixed price hence the statement that PP = lost profit as you can't add to the price?

Cheers Graham.

The fixed price should cover your PP time. I always include that in my invoice and in my contract. If I need more time then that's on me, that's just part of the service. Depends how far you're willing to go. It's like working overtime but without pay. Sure, that is incentive for me to get the job done quicker and next time I can adjust my price accordingly.

And if your fixed price doesn't get you the job, then you don't have to worry about PP anyway.

 

[Zv]

Asking a digital photog for unedited images is like going to restaurant and asking the chef to take a steak out of the freezer and slap it straight onto a plate and serve it up.

Well he didn't have to cook it so it's cheaper, right?

No. You pay for the steak AND the cooking of it.

Even uploading, backing up, sorting and rating is part of the editing process. Maybe some cropping thrown in at least. Then there's output sharpening. So saying you don't do PP is basically jpeg in camera straight to client, no middle man PC work at all. I'm sure some people work like that and make money (excluding sports photogs on deadlines where the editor needs the shots right away) but they can't be all that great which is why they value their own work so cheaply.

Sorry I just feel really strongly about people who don't take the time and effort to produce high quality images and call themselves "professionals". (Again not talking about sports togs who work on deadlines).

 

[Rienzphotoz]

but I always have this nagging feeling that leaving more space around a subject simply isn't considered "proper".

I don't really care about what the so called "pro" photographers (or anyone else) consider something "proper" ... photography is my hobby that gives me a great deal of joy and happiness ... if cropping an image gives me the look I want in an image, I'll do it. Having said that, I've seen professional bird photographers cropping their images to death ... I suppose to each his/her own. Generally though, when I use a tripod I tend not to crop my images as I have enough time to compose the image the way I want. But its when I'm doing run and gun situations, I tend to crop - in those situations I deliberately leave a little room for cropping in PP.

 

[Dick]

I crop images a lot.

1) The wider I shoot, the more I tend to crop when there are people in the photos. For some reason I prefer tightly framed shots when taking pics of people.

2) I'm using a 5D3 and the AF points are in limited spots. When I use servo (quite often), framing a moving object correctly with AF point location limitations to consider is very hard at least for me. This causes me to crop the images in PP to get the wanted framing.

3) I also like to try different photo rotations and crops. Often I end up with something better than what I could have thought of while taking the pictures. Some unexpected facial expression can for example work nicely with a rotated photo.

4) Instead of removing unwanted objects in PS, I prefer cropping when ever possible.

5) I shoot lots of insects. Most of them with a 2x magnification due to gear limitations. Because of this it is almost a necessity to crop a lot. Otherwise there'll be tiny insects in pictures of blurred crap.

 

[Hillsilly]

I tend to printing and mount a lot of photos. So not only do I need my image to fit into the intended print size, but I also lose a few millimetres behind a mounting board. Consequently, I often frame a little more loosely than others.

 

[ckwaller]

I tend to printing and mount a lot of photos. So not only do I need my image to fit into the intended print size, but I also lose a few millimetres behind a mounting board. Consequently, I often frame a little more loosely than others.

This.

I tend to think of the endgame for the photo: will it live online or "onwall?" If it's the latter, then I tend to crop relatively loosely, as long as the general composition is where I want it to be. This way, if I were to have the photo printed on canvas and wrapped, I've got a bit of wiggle room wherein the edges are wrapped, and the main, composed part of the image is preserved fully on the front of the canvas.

 

[steven kessel]

My hobby is nature -- especially bird -- photography and I almost never leave a photo "as shot." With the subjects in motion most of the time it's usually impossible to get the perfect composition in the viewfinder. Also, I find that there's usually a lot of extraneous background in my photos even with some pretty powerful optics (400DO + 1.4 extender). So, substantial cropping becomes a necessary evil, if only to present a viewable subject.

 

[Skirball]

Asking a digital photog for unedited images is like going to restaurant and asking the chef to take a steak out of the freezer and slap it straight onto a plate and serve it up.

Well he didn't have to cook it so it's cheaper, right?

No. You pay for the steak AND the cooking of it.

It's nothing like that, unless you were in the market for frozen steak. Perhaps a better analogy would be a steak at a fine restaurant and a 'tube steak' from Weinerschnitzel. I'm not going to eat the latter, but someone out there does, or they wouldn't be in business.

I agree with your philosophy, I don't even let my wife have photos off my camera for her Facebook until I've done my thing, but I'm not here to put my philosophy on others. There are plenty of run and gun markets out there, from Sports guys, to the ultrabudget Realestate guys, to journalist, to business planning types, to even - sadly - wedding photographers. If a market didn't exist for them, they wouldn't be out there. I think there's a better way to do it, but if it works for them who am I to tell them otherwise.

 

[jdramirez]

Asking a digital photog for unedited images is like going to restaurant and asking the chef to take a steak out of the freezer and slap it straight onto a plate and serve it up.

Well he didn't have to cook it so it's cheaper, right?

No. You pay for the steak AND the cooking of it.

It's nothing like that, unless you were in the market for frozen steak. Perhaps a better analogy would be a steak at a fine restaurant and a 'tube steak' from Weinerschnitzel. I'm not going to eat the latter, but someone out there does, or they wouldn't be in business.

I agree with your philosophy, I don't even let my wife have photos off my camera for her Facebook until I've done my thing, but I'm not here to put my philosophy on others. There are plenty of run and gun markets out there, from Sports guys, to the ultrabudget Realestate guys, to journalist, to business planning types, to even - sadly - wedding photographers. If a market didn't exist for them, they wouldn't be out there. I think there's a better way to do it, but if it works for them who am I to tell them otherwise.

don't disparage Weinerschnitzel... I make a point to eat there every time I go back to my home town... and of course I realize why I left.

 

[Botts]

Asking a digital photog for unedited images is like going to restaurant and asking the chef to take a steak out of the freezer and slap it straight onto a plate and serve it up.

Even uploading, backing up, sorting and rating is part of the editing process. Maybe some cropping thrown in at least. Then there's output sharpening. So saying you don't do PP is basically jpeg in camera straight to client, no middle man PC work at all. I'm sure some people work like that and make money (excluding sports photogs on deadlines where the editor needs the shots right away) but they can't be all that great which is why they value their own work so cheaply.

I've run into this before. I didn't want unedited images to save money, I was paying the photog the same either way. I really liked her images, we just didn't share the same post philosophy. I told her to rate and edit down, but send me her edited JPEGs and RAWs.

Also, I was willing to spend a serious amount of time editing each image, far more than she would be able to. I'm not opposed to compositing faces from one shot on to another, if for example, I looked really good in one, and my fiancé blinked and vice versa. My fiancé is a blinker with ETTL, so I'm used to doing this for her. Unless you take the time to use manual flash she'll blink in over 80% of shots with ETTL.

It let me sharpen to my output, and resize to my needs, I was also able to composite multiple exposures as necessary, she took beautiful photos, and I retouched them how I like and it worked out great.

 

[David_in_Seattle]

Whenever I read or hear blanketed statements starting with "real pro photographers..." I just take their opinion with a grain of salt.

To answer your question, I take into consideration what my client wants before deciding whether to compose tightly or leave room for cropping. In some cases a client needs photos for a specific magazine spread or website design in which the images will rarely be used in their native 2:3 or 3:2 aspect ratio. In these circumstances I always ask for the specific image guidelines in order to meet their deliverables because there's nothing worse than having to redo an entire photo shoot.

In addition to the idea of composing tightly, one must also consider the flaws of the specific lens they're using. Whether it be barrel distortion, CA, pincussioning, or vignetting.

 

[Rienzphotoz]

Asking a digital photog for unedited images is like going to restaurant and asking the chef to take a steak out of the freezer and slap it straight onto a plate and serve it up.

Well he didn't have to cook it so it's cheaper, right?

No. You pay for the steak AND the cooking of it.

It's nothing like that, unless you were in the market for frozen steak.

It is a perfect analogy by Zv.
But what you said is not, coz if you were in the market for frozen steak, you won't go to a restaurant, you'd go to the frozen meat section of the store or a butcher.

 

[Rienzphotoz]

Asking a digital photog for unedited images is like going to restaurant and asking the chef to take a steak out of the freezer and slap it straight onto a plate and serve it up.

Well said.

 

[Eldar]

Asking a digital photog for unedited images is like going to restaurant and asking the chef to take a steak out of the freezer and slap it straight onto a plate and serve it up.

Well said.

Throw a raw egg on top, and it is called a steak tartar. Actually quite good, provided you have the right quality meat and you don´t get it too often

 

[Zv]

Asking a digital photog for unedited images is like going to restaurant and asking the chef to take a steak out of the freezer and slap it straight onto a plate and serve it up.

Well said.

Thanks!

 

[Rienzphotoz]

Asking a digital photog for unedited images is like going to restaurant and asking the chef to take a steak out of the freezer and slap it straight onto a plate and serve it up.

Well said.

Throw a raw egg on top, and it is called a steak tartar.

Not when it is out of the freezer

 

[Steve Todd]

I don't get it, I guess I'm showing my age, but I have thousands of color transparencies (slide film) that are exposed, framed, orientated (level), focused and composed properly! And they were all done without the ability to see the exposed images until they came back from the lab! Remember slide film only had 1/3 of a stop latitude, so exposures had to be virtually perfect. What am I missing here? I have always strived to get the image correct, in the camera! I am not knocking digitial, I own several of them and haven't used film for several years. However, I wonder what has become of basic photographic skills. We used to have faith in our equipment and in our ability (skill) as photographers. Can you imagine what people today would stress over if the had to wait until they were home to see what they shot, let alone wait days or weeks! With film, we never gave it a second thought, it was just the way it was! It sure seems to me that many of today's photographers are really just "image makers!", relying on post production (editing) to correct their errors when capturing the basic image in the camera. Oh my, how things have changed.

 

[Rocky]

I don't get it, I guess I'm showing my age, but I have thousands of color transparencies (slide film) that are exposed, framed, orientated (level), focused and composed properly! And they were all done without the ability to see the exposed images until they came back from the lab! Remember slide film only had 1/3 of a stop latitude, so exposures had to be virtually perfect. What am I missing here? I have always strived to get the image correct, in the camera! I am not knocking digitial, I own several of them and haven't used film for several years. However, I wonder what has become of basic photographic skills. We used to have faith in our equipment and in our ability (skill) as photographers. Can you imagine what people today would stress over if the had to wait until they were home to see what they shot, let alone wait days or weeks! With film, we never gave it a second thought, it was just the way it was! It sure seems to me that many of today's photographers are really just "image makers!", relying on post production (editing) to correct their errors when capturing the basic image in the camera. Oh my, how things have changed

Excellent point. I was (am) inthe same boat. I shot Kodakchrome and Ektachrome for many many years. With Dslr, I became very careless. But I got the pictures I want by shootin a lot more pictures. "Memory is free".

 

[Eldar]

I don't get it, I guess I'm showing my age, but I have thousands of color transparencies (slide film) that are exposed, framed, orientated (level), focused and composed properly! And they were all done without the ability to see the exposed images until they came back from the lab! Remember slide film only had 1/3 of a stop latitude, so exposures had to be virtually perfect. What am I missing here? I have always strived to get the image correct, in the camera! I am not knocking digitial, I own several of them and haven't used film for several years. However, I wonder what has become of basic photographic skills. We used to have faith in our equipment and in our ability (skill) as photographers. Can you imagine what people today would stress over if the had to wait until they were home to see what they shot, let alone wait days or weeks! With film, we never gave it a second thought, it was just the way it was! It sure seems to me that many of today's photographers are really just "image makers!", relying on post production (editing) to correct their errors when capturing the basic image in the camera. Oh my, how things have changed

Excellent point. I was (am) inthe same boat. I shot Kodakchrome and Ektachrome for many many years. With Dslr, I became very careless. But I got the pictures I want by shootin a lot more pictures. "Memory is free".

I have the same history. With slide film, the only real option was to get exposure and framing right from the start. A great Norwegian photographer, Morten Krogvold, whom I admire a lot ( http://www.krogvold.com/index.php?nr=3 ), is very clear in his teaching that the work needs to be done prior to pushing the shutter and I fully agree. Yes, we now have post processing tools that can fix and trix with almost anything, but you always get a better end result if you did the right things to begin with.

 

[Skirball]

Asking a digital photog for unedited images is like going to restaurant and asking the chef to take a steak out of the freezer and slap it straight onto a plate and serve it up.

Well he didn't have to cook it so it's cheaper, right?

No. You pay for the steak AND the cooking of it.

It's nothing like that, unless you were in the market for frozen steak.

It is a perfect analogy by Zv.
But what you said is not, coz if you were in the market for frozen steak, you won't go to a restaurant, you'd go to the frozen meat section of the store or a butcher.

That was my point, people don't go to the market for frozen steak, so the analogy doesn't work. Evidently you missed the point.

There is a market for minimalist PP photography. It exists, people make a living shooting photographs and passing them onto the end user with minimal to no PP. You may not care for it, I don't care for it, but it exists, so there's a market. In his analogy, people do go to restaurants to buy frozen meat. As you said, people don’t do that, they go to the market. The analogy isn’t perfect.