I just wanted to clarify things about the EOS R5 and EOS R6 from yesterday’s report

#101
twoheadedboy said:
I was really surprised by 3 things with my R5:

I don't really like the way you have to flip it to and from video mode, but I will rarely use video and rarely change the settings (I pretty much expect to use 4k 30p non-HQ all the time) so it's not really a big deal.
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Can you go straight to video shooting by pressing the video button (assuming that the video settings are already setup) or do you need to press mode then info first (is it mode+info at the same time?)? Underwater housing means I can't press 2 buttons at once and even 2 sequential buttons (on top then back) will be painful to switch.
 
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#102
Darrell Cadieux said:
I have read several rather nasty reports that the R5 is overheating while shooting stills. I want one primarily for wedding photography where I am going to shoot 2000+ frames in a day...many in rapid succession. Has anyone else heard of these problems?
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Read THIS and I think you’ll agree the camera is safe for stills shooting.
 
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#106
Ramage said:
@Bert63 If I had the power to get you a R5 I would do it in a second. I think you would/will really enjoy the Camera I am hoping someone that is in front of your order cancels so you get it ASAP.
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Bro - I just want to see some PITCHERS! GNAWHUTAHMSAYIN? PITCHERS NOW DAMMIT!

And I really appreciate the sentiment. I’m glad the bubbas are getting their toys and mine will be here one of these days.
 
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#108
David - Sydney said:
Can you go straight to video shooting by pressing the video button (assuming that the video settings are already setup) or do you need to press mode then info first (is it mode+info at the same time?)? Underwater housing means I can't press 2 buttons at once and even 2 sequential buttons (on top then back) will be painful to switch.
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If it's anything like the R. Yes. Hitting the record button while in photo mode will record in whatever you set the C3 settings as.

To swap modes, hit mode dial, info, half press shutter. It's not as convenient as a video switch like on the 5D, but it's actually a kind of easy and fun to do , once you get the muscle memory down switching between photo and video.
 
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#109
cornieleous said:
Heat is not unpredictable, it is actually simple. The hotter the ambient air, the less a source can cool. The more the camera is doing, the more heat it produces.
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The heat is not unpredictable, but it's not simple either. You'd have to use differential equations to calculate heat distribution and dissipation. It may not be as simple as you described especially when you want to predict the actual temperature (not just claim it'll get hotter).
 
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#110
Ramage said:
My Camera is sitting at my desk while I work from home. The power is on and has been for an hour and I can still take photos, I can still record video.

This BS that the camera is overheating just sitting there needs to stop cause it is simply not true.

NO way NO how Canon would release the Camera without weeks of Soak testing the Camera.
Click to expand...

If you leave it on the backseat of your car in Miami in July for three hours before shooting you might have a problem.

If you leave it on a picnic table in direct sunlight in California in July before shooting you might have a problem.

If you’re shooting video and pushing the described limits repeatedly in Arizona in July before shooting stills you might have a problem.

If you educate yourself on the limits and try to work within them you might have a different experience. I don’t know - I haven’t tried up here in the PNW where today we hit a steaming 72 degrees.
 
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#112
Bert63 said:
Sounds like this isn’t the camera for you then.
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First:
That's not really the point whether this camera is for me or not. I do a lot of stills work as well, so the R5 (once it arrives next week) will find some place in my kit and will easily replace the 5D4. It will play nicely alongside the 1DX2. :)

Second:
The real question is "does it have to be that way", or can Canon fix it with better power management, slightly less conservative heat limits (within safety of course) or a hardware fix getting the heat away faster. Can they make usage of the fancy, advertised video modes be less clunky. I don't think any other camera on the market locks you out of the "premium" features for hours once it gets too warm.

Thanks to people drawing attention to these limitations, whether you think it's overblown or not, there is a small chance Canon will actually be "forced" to make the camera better. And each of the things I listed above will improve photo mode as well.

power management: more battery life
heat limits: it will not start to throttle shooting speed. Yes, temperature is a factor in that, as per the manual.
heat dissipation: less heat means less sensor noise

So instead of just repeating "it is what it is, deal with it, this camera is not for you or for serious video shooters, get a Cine Camera", think about why this has to be a Canon-god-given fact when other manufacturers can just do better in this regard. :)
From the CR Guy backchatter it seems they're at least looking into it. So what's the problem with that, I'm glad if they do.
 
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#114
cornieleous said:
To put my money where my mouth is, I ran my own test today. Summary from another post where the detailed setup is described.

My real customer overheating test. Camera pre-ordered from BH Photo at 6:05AM 7/9/20 and arrived yesterday. Ran a test I believe will cover MY needs and beyond, and to see if the camera would meet the stated run times (it does).

TEST SUMMARY: R5 with EF 24-105mm mk1 on control ring adapter. Batteries used are old LP-E6, mostly charged (90%). In constant direct sunlight @ 85 degrees ambient with low air flow, 5000kft altitude, moderate humidity. Camera mostly stationary. I was able to get the R5 to do the following, back to back:
  1. 30 mins 4K60P IPB
  2. 30 mins 1080P
  3. Took a couple stills, no issues
  4. 30 mins 4K30P (quick battery swap midway through)
  5. 8.5 mins 4K60P (The thermal warning started flashing right away when this recording started)
  6. Automatic thermal shutdown @ 8.5 mins into second 4K60P
  7. 20 minute cool down in 75 degrees with airflow (normal AC house)
  8. Restarted with no thermal warning for 4K60P
  9. Ended test
Compared temp at various times against powered-off 5D4 and 6D both also in the direct sunlight. At end of all tests, R5 was 10-15 degrees hotter (estimated by touch) than powered-off cameras.

For MY needs, this is quite reasonable and it met and exceeded what Canon said it would. In direct sun I expect any camera to eventually get too hot, especially these tiny bodies. This thing is a stills beast that can do competent FF video, but may not be an all day cinema camera. The amount of video it took in direct sun was more than I would ever do back to back. I'm sure variables are humidity, IBIS and focus activity, etc. but I was happy enough with this result which matched or exceeded the length promised by Canon in their own less strenuous testing. Is this the best do-it-all-in-one body camera for wedding photographers and event shooters who need high rate video? Doubt there really IS a body that can do-it-all-in-one that well yet. I own multiple brands of purpose built cameras for a reason. Hybrids are always a compromise.

The new Sony is a great example of a compromise in the opposite direction- 12MP not great for many stills applications but it will be better for many video users. In the real world though, it is reported as not all that much better at overheat than the R5 while pushing much less resolution and data. I'll stick to my Sony HXR-NX80 for long video shoots if I even need it anymore. Might be I am close enough for my video needs to sell it if the R5 continues to work out well.

Bottom line is these mirrorless bodies are small, very small. The 5D4 is larger. The R5 is weather sealed. It has IBIS and a giant MP sensor (relatively) to read out. It has incredible focusing system, great screen and viewfinder, wonderful ergonomics (except the small size that some of us don't like as well).

Folks can continue to loudly lament that it is not what they THOUGHT they heard promised, and call those of us embracing it ignorant fanboys if that floats their boat, or they can objectively start to look at what it can do, or look to more suitable products. If it is not for everyone, no worries I'll enjoy it, but I think this camera has had a very unrealistic public reaction lead by some very poor reviews and a lot of emotionalism without objectivity. Canon definitely could have marketed more smartly instead of blaring the video capabilities to an uninformed and entitled public- that set them up for trouble. They can and should improve the heating issue if possible. However overall this is the camera many of us waited for to move up from the 5D4. I'm liking it so far, and if it improves in the future, great but there is likely only so far the intended design can be pushed. Just wish it wasn't so tiny!
Click to expand...

Thank you. Clear and to the point and actually more than I expected it would do given all the YouBOOB drama.
 
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#115
Loibisch said:
First:
That's not really the point whether this camera is for me or not. I do a lot of stills work as well, so the R5 (once it arrives next week) will find some place in my kit and will easily replace the 5D4. It will play nicely alongside the 1DX2. :)

Second:
The real question is "does it have to be that way", or can Canon fix it with better power management, slightly less conservative heat limits (within safety of course) or a hardware fix getting the heat away faster. Can they make usage of the fancy, advertised video modes be less clunky. I don't think any other camera on the market locks you out of the "premium" features for hours once it gets too warm.

Thanks to people drawing attention to these limitations, whether you think it's overblown or not, there is a small chance Canon will actually be "forced" to make the camera better. And each of the things I listed above will improve photo mode as well.

power management: more battery life
heat limits: it will not start to throttle shooting speed. Yes, temperature is a factor in that, as per the manual.
heat dissipation: less heat means less sensor noise

So instead of just repeating "it is what it is, deal with it, this camera is not for you or for serious video shooters, get a Cine Camera", think about why this has to be a Canon-god-given fact when other manufacturers can just do better in this regard. :)
From the CR Guy backchatter it seems they're at least looking into it. So what's the problem with that, I'm glad if they do.
Click to expand...
@Loibisch I think we are all in favor of making the camera better, it just that a lot of us do not see it as being all that broken right now.

While saying things like "It heats up taking pictures" (Not saying you did) is factual it is how people that do not understand all Cameras heat up while the power is on see that statement.

The fact the camera does shutdown when it reaches its thermal protection limit shooting high resolution or high framerate video cannot be denied. My issue is what happens on the internet when the big game of telephone starts repeating things and people that do not know any better or are just pushing their agenda start saying things like it "shuts down taking pictures".

That kind of noise is hard for Canon to filter through because they know it does not shutdown taking picture. While I do not agree with the way you are saying your piece I agree with what you are saying.

If we can PUSH Canon to make what I feel is already an awesome camera better that is a win.
 
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#116
cornieleous said:
So many simple reasons.

  1. The R5 body is a LOT smaller than the 1DX3, guessing you have not seen a side by side. It is smaller than a 5D4 and even a 6D
  2. There is no evidence the R5 is not sealed nearly or as well as the 1DX3- it is fully weather sealed. Any differences are going to be completely insignificant thermally.
  3. 1DX3 doesn't do high bit rate video (4K120, 4KHQ and 8K)
  4. 1DX3 has a much smaller sensor resolution which is faster to read out so less heat generated per read cycle.
  5. IBIS requires floating the sensor on a suspension without a large heat sink mass, so cooling is harder.
  6. Electronic viewfinder and screen running all the time on R5, more power.
  7. etc.
Click to expand...
Just so you are aware, the 1DX Mark III shoots at 2600 Mbps in 5.6K RAW and 1800 Mbps in regular video codec....so it's an extremely high bitrate video camera as well.
 
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#117
At first I thought this was nothing but YouTube drama given the fact that just about every hybrid camera which over samples 4k will overheat. Sony's bodies overheat. Fuji's bodies overheat. Panasonic's FF bodies overheat, unless you have the one with the fan. Times vary by camera and conditions, but everything without a fan will overheat if you push it hard enough. Dedicated cinema cameras have fans for this reason.

But looking at all the information that's out now...this is a problem, and I'm shocked Canon released the R5/R6 this way. Recovery times are absurd. People are reporting overheated cameras that feel cool to the touch. And simply having these cameras on severely cuts into the available time. There's something off with the engineering which causes these cameras to retain heat instead of shedding it to the environment. An X-T3 or A73 might overheat as well, but they don't need to sit overnight to record again. Their bodies get warm to the touch. They shed the heat.

It's one thing to tell video guys they're looking at the wrong cameras for 2 hour, over sampled, 4k interviews. It's another thing entirely to tell a wedding guy he can't get even 1m of 4k60 because he has been shooting stills all day.

I don't know if Canon can do something to fix it short of a mark II redesign. But if there is a relatively simple hardware fix, they should stop the line, fix it, and perform a recall. If I was an executive at Canon I would be looking at exactly this. Even if it meant some copper heat piping to a new, aluminum bottom plate (assuming there's even room to run the copper). Anything to get these cameras to shed their heat so that recovery times are reasonable and max recording times are not ruined by simply turning the camera on.

This is not good, especially for the R6 which is far less compelling at its price point absent usable 4k30/4k60. In my view this is a stumble comparable to the 1D mark III AF issues. Maybe worse given the state of the market.
 
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#118
Ramage said:
@Loibisch I think we are all in favor of making the camera better, it just that a lot of us do not see it as being all that broken right now.
Click to expand...

If you're a stills guy upgrading from a 5D3 or 5D4 to the R5, it doesn't seem like a big deal because the R5 has so much to offer photographically. But if you're doing jobs which require hybrid shooting, this is simply broken in a way that may send you to another brand. Same for a hobbyist who is just as interested in video as in stills. Or for a Canon user who is happy with their stills kit but looking to add a solid video body.

IMHO this destroys the appeal of the R6. Take away the video features from the R6. Now why would you drop $2,500 on the R6 instead of any of a number of other cheaper Canon bodies, to say nothing of competing bodies with usable video?

The fact the camera does shutdown when it reaches its thermal protection limit shooting high resolution or high framerate video cannot be denied. My issue is what happens on the internet when the big game of telephone starts repeating things and people that do not know any better or are just pushing their agenda start saying things like it "shuts down taking pictures".
Click to expand...

Are we certain it won't? So far guys have been testing in southern CA at 80-90F, and that's enough to heat the camera to the point that most video modes become unavailable after stills shooting. That means the camera is hot inside even if it does continue to shoot stills. Has anyone been out to the Mojave? Death Valley? Arizona? Utah? The Las Vegas strip? I've shot all day at airshows that were 90-100F, beaches that were well passed 90F, and I've been on hikes in the American southwest where temperatures peaked at over 100F. I've never had a Canon body or lens show any hint of failure under these conditions. Not even when the black-painted bodies were hot to the touch from sunlight.

Are we sure these conditions won't push the R5 and/or R6 over the edge thermally? Honestly, everyone down playing this better brace themselves for the possibility. The first "influencer" who reports an R5 shutting down during stills shooting in the American southwest (or Africa or India...) is going to be a disaster for Canon. I'm not convinced that won't happen.
 
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#119
I
dtaylor said:
If you're a stills guy upgrading from a 5D3 or 5D4 to the R5, it doesn't seem like a big deal because the R5 has so much to offer photographically. But if you're doing jobs which require hybrid shooting, this is simply broken in a way that may send you to another brand. Same for a hobbyist who is just as interested in video as in stills. Or for a Canon user who is happy with their stills kit but looking to add a solid video body.

IMHO this destroys the appeal of the R6. Take away the video features from the R6. Now why would you drop $2,500 on the R6 instead of any of a number of other cheaper Canon bodies, to say nothing of competing bodies with usable video?



Are we certain it won't? So far guys have been testing in southern CA at 80-90F, and that's enough to heat the camera to the point that most video modes become unavailable after stills shooting. That means the camera is hot inside even if it does continue to shoot stills. Has anyone been out to the Mojave? Death Valley? Arizona? Utah? The Las Vegas strip? I've shot all day at airshows that were 90-100F, beaches that were well passed 90F, and I've been on hikes in the American southwest where temperatures peaked at over 100F. I've never had a Canon body or lens show any hint of failure under these conditions. Not even when the black-painted bodies were hot to the touch from sunlight.

Are we sure these conditions won't push the R5 and/or R6 over the edge thermally? Honestly, everyone down playing this better brace themselves for the possibility. The first "influencer" who reports an R5 shutting down during stills shooting in the American southwest (or Africa or India...) is going to be a disaster for Canon. I'm not convinced that won't happen.
Click to expand...
I have overheated my 7D my 7DmkII my 6D. Each time this was at an AirShow with the Camera in direct sunlight sitting on a table. Each time this happened it was my fault. And each time I would put the Camera into the shade and be happy it turned back on after it cooled off a bit.

Today while working from home I left my R5 on for 2 hours sitting on my desk picking it up and taking it out of whatever sleep mode I could not fully disable. I started this little exercise with 10min and 51sec of record time in 8k IPB available. After the 2 hours I had 10min and 51sec of 8K IPB available. The idea the Camera has to heat up doing nothing is just silly. Does it retain heat like a thermos? It appears to, however that same property also provides protection from the elements.

So I say, sure someone will get it to overheat by cooking it taking stills and that same person will likely try and make a big deal about it becaue A.) Their stupid or B.)They have an agenda.
 
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#120
Max C said:
This is why they must do something, no matter how many people defend Canon and say they don't care about video etc Their market valuation is what the people at Canon will be going to bed and waking up thinking about. And its a nightmare.

Their Stock has been slammed since launch, and trading at 21 year low on very high volumes. Not since 1999 have we seen these valuations. Which means that analyst with alot more information than us, that have both industry and company specific data see this launch as a failure, that will negatively impact financials.

With valuations like this, they will do something, and the market is already pricing some of that in. These are the kind of things that lead to layoffs, I don't want to see people lose their jobs, I hope they solve it.
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You do realize that alot of companies are getting the stinky crap kicked out of them this valuation period right?

Canon exports globally - in case you haven't realized, that's not doing too well these days. Not sure why to be honest, but my ESP tells me something is happening ;)

Also, an ever smaller portion of their business is cameras - and even much smaller portion of that is full frame cameras.
 
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