I just wanted to clarify things about the EOS R5 and EOS R6 from yesterday’s report

canonnews

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This is why they must do something, no matter how many people defend Canon and say they don't care about video etc Their market valuation is what the people at Canon will be going to bed and waking up thinking about. And its a nightmare.

Their Stock has been slammed since launch, and trading at 21 year low on very high volumes. Not since 1999 have we seen these valuations. Which means that analyst with alot more information than us, that have both industry and company specific data see this launch as a failure, that will negatively impact financials.

With valuations like this, they will do something, and the market is already pricing some of that in. These are the kind of things that lead to layoffs, I don't want to see people lose their jobs, I hope they solve it.
You do realize that alot of companies are getting the stinky crap kicked out of them this valuation period right?

Canon exports globally - in case you haven't realized, that's not doing too well these days. Not sure why to be honest, but my ESP tells me something is happening ;)

Also, an ever smaller portion of their business is cameras - and even much smaller portion of that is full frame cameras.
 

cornieleous

5D4 + R5
Jul 13, 2020
208
735
It's one thing to tell video guys they're looking at the wrong cameras for 2 hour, over sampled, 4k interviews. It's another thing entirely to tell a wedding guy he can't get even 1m of 4k60 because he has been shooting stills all day.

This is not good, especially for the R6 which is far less compelling at its price point absent usable 4k30/4k60. In my view this is a stumble comparable to the 1D mark III AF issues. Maybe worse given the state of the market.
Who is telling wedding people that? Youtube reviewers?

I set my R5 in direct sunlight today in 85 degree ambient air. I shot back to back in order: 30 mins of 4K60P, 30 mins of 1080P, 30 mins of 4K30P, then 8.5 more mins of 4K60P before it shut itself down. In direct sunlight, with warm ambient air. 30 mins of 4K60P IPB was nearly 50GB- is it really practical? Also, I could have shot 1080P or 4K30 for a LOT longer, as those cycles did little to heat up the camera. For a while, the R5 was barely warmer than my powered off Canon 5D4 which I also set in the sun during the test. I'm pretty sure the reports of shooting stills preventing one minute of video later are either from Phoenix where it was 118 degrees today, or the reports are carelessly lacking all the things that came before to heat up the camera.

For most people, this is going to be very reliable. For people who are going to push its max capability, they will probably be more comfortable with a camcorder or other large and well cooled body.

Ever try to cool a large computer with lots of hard drives and GPUs when the AC is broke? If it is hot, all electronics cannot dump their heat fast enough- it requires cool ambient air to remove heat from the heatsink (in the case of the R5, the magnesium alloy body). If a device is doing enough, that needed ambient cooling temp can get very low indeed especially in compact electronics like cell phones and cameras. In my own test of the R5, it outperformed what Canon said it could do on paper in terms of overheating. It is great for my primarily stills use, with casual video. For a few who will always be pushing their camera at high rates, they could try the competition and find out it will overheat almost just as fast according to several recent tests. Or they could buy a proper air cooled cinema camera.

There IS no hybrid camera that can do full frame high framerate and high resolution and stills all in one tiny MILC body. The only place Canon really screwed up is marketing aggressively to an uneducated and entitled public. Wedding photographers convinced themselves there would be no trade offs and that they could have it all, but people need to face physics and get a little education, and listen to what Canon actually said instead of watching hyped reviews and passing bad info around.

Sure, it will be great if Canon can improve the situation, but for many it is going to be fine as is.
 
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canonnews

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There IS no hybrid camera that can do full frame high framerate and high resolution and stills all in one tiny MILC body. The only place Canon really screwed up is marketing aggressively to an uneducated and entitled public. Wedding photographers convinced themselves there would be no trade offs and that they could have it all, but people need to face physics and get a little education, and listen to what Canon actually said instead of watching hyped reviews and passing bad info around.

Sure, it will be great if Canon can improve the situation, but for many it is going to be fine as is.
too many people thought that for $4,000 Canon was giving them a $20,000 video camera.
 

cornieleous

5D4 + R5
Jul 13, 2020
208
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I have overheated my 7D my 7DmkII my 6D. Each time this was at an AirShow with the Camera in direct sunlight sitting on a table. Each time this happened it was my fault. And each time I would put the Camera into the shade and be happy it turned back on after it cooled off a bit.

Today while working from home I left my R5 on for 2 hours sitting on my desk picking it up and taking it out of whatever sleep mode I could not fully disable. I started this little exercise with 10min and 51sec of record time in 8k IPB available. After the 2 hours I had 10min and 51sec of 8K IPB available. The idea the Camera has to heat up doing nothing is just silly. Does it retain heat like a thermos? It appears to, however that same property also provides protection from the elements.

So I say, sure someone will get it to overheat by cooking it taking stills and that same person will likely try and make a big deal about it becaue A.) Their stupid or B.)They have an agenda.
Agree that claim of the camera heating doing nothing is not holding water. I also tested that (idling) along with my sunlight video test.

I think the R5 seems to retain heat but is actually using the body as a heat sink more than in the past, which is good. Canon acknowledged changing the magnesium alloy to be a better thermal conductor, and it sure feels different than a 5D4. I suppose this same property may make it struggle more in the sun faster, but I was satisfied with over 90 minutes of various video in direct sun, including one run of 4K60P before it shut down. To do that to any electronics, let it bake in the sun like that, and expect infinite performance? That is crazy. I thought what it did do was super reasonable especially for its dense size, and it beat Canon's stated times.

One other interesting test I did, is hold it in my hand powered off for five minutes. Warmed it right up. The 5D4 never did that. To me that says the body conducts heat much better and is likely the heat sink. Maybe Canon should paint lenses AND cameras white to keep them cool in the sun. :D
 

marioslrzn

EOS M50
Mar 11, 2019
34
41
I have read several rather nasty reports that the R5 is overheating while shooting stills. I want one primarily for wedding photography where I am going to shoot 2000+ frames in a day...many in rapid succession. Has anyone else heard of these problems?
There’s no issues for stills, you can shoot stills to your battery runs dead or standard 4k30fps or lower. The issues are High bitrate videos are not available once the camera is been on for a while. That’s the thing people are complaining about. As a photographer you’re good to go. I think it’s Canon being conservative, cause you can shoot 4k30fps all day and the camera will never die, that’s why I think the high bit rates are in a time mode and not really a heat mode.
 
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canonnews

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Agree that claim of the camera heating doing nothing is not holding water. I also tested that (idling) along with my sunlight video test.

I think the R5 seems to retain heat but is actually using the body as a heat sink more than in the past, which is good. Canon acknowledged changing the magnesium alloy to be a better thermal conductor, and it sure feels different than a 5D4. I suppose this same property may make it struggle more in the sun faster, but I was satisfied with over 90 minutes of various video in direct sun, including one run of 4K60P before it shut down. To do that to any electronics, let it bake in the sun like that, and expect infinite performance? That is crazy. I thought what it did do was super reasonable especially for its dense size, and it beat Canon's stated times.

One other interesting test I did, is hold it in my hand powered off for five minutes. Warmed it right up. The 5D4 never did that. To me that says the body conducts heat much better and is likely the heat sink. Maybe Canon should paint lenses AND cameras white to keep them cool in the sun. :D
All joking aside - you raise an interesting point. using the camera in direct sunlight may cause more issues with this camera than others and maybe a silver classic camera styling would have been better for it than pure black.

That also may be causing some variability in reports we're hearing as well - the amount of direct sunlight.
 

dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
1,627
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Who is telling wedding people that? Youtube reviewers?
Their data points are no less valid than yours.

I set my R5 in direct sunlight today in 85 degree ambient air. I shot back to back in order: 30 mins of 4K60P, 30 mins of 1080P, 30 mins of 4K30P, then 8.5 more mins of 4K60P before it shut itself down.
The 1080p and 4k30...unless the latter was HQ mode...are "fluff" in the sense that we know the R5 can shoot them continuously in 85F weather even after overheating. They line skip and don't use very much processing power. How long did it have to cool before it could do a full 30m of 4k30hq or 4k60 again? Now tomorrow shoot stills for a while and switch to 4k30hq or 4k60: how much can you get?

For a while, the R5 was barely warmer than my powered off Canon 5D4 which I also set in the sun during the test.
That's part of the problem. It should have been much warmer, but the heat is getting trapped inside.

I'm pretty sure the reports of shooting stills preventing one minute of video later are either from Phoenix where it was 118 degrees today, or the reports are carelessly lacking all the things that came before to heat up the camera.
Then you haven't looked at the reports.

The only place Canon really screwed up is marketing aggressively to an uneducated and entitled public. Wedding photographers convinced themselves there would be no trade offs and that they could have it all, but people need to face physics and get a little education, and listen to what Canon actually said instead of watching hyped reviews and passing bad info around.
If the camera can't meet expectations and user needs then people will go to other brands for solutions whether you think they are entitled or not. I would agree that continuous 8k / 4k60 / 4k30hq from a 45mp sensor would be unrealistic without a fan. But looking at the competition it is not unrealistic to expect acceptable recovery times, or to expect to be able to shoot stills all day and still have max or near max recording time.

It's like the cameras are insulated. That's a problem.
 
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marioslrzn

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Mar 11, 2019
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I think Canon is just being conservative with the heat tolerance. How is the Camera able to do 4k30fps for hours and never overheat and get hotter than when shooting 8k raw. Armando said the camera was cold to the touch, the battery was cold but still couldn’t shoot 8k. That leads me to believe the camera is not on a heat tolerance but more a time restriction. That Explains Dan Watson test against the R5 and A7siii, How is the canon always the same 33min in the hoT direct sunlight and 33 minutes in the air condition, doesn’t make since, if it was heat limited the times would be much longer inside than outside but that’s not the case. I think Canon is going to release a firmware update to have unlimited 4k60fps and 4k120fps and maybe 90min of 4kHQ...something tells me canon was just waiting for the a7siii to release
 
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dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
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I have overheated my 7D my 7DmkII my 6D. Each time this was at an AirShow with the Camera in direct sunlight sitting on a table. Each time this happened it was my fault. And each time I would put the Camera into the shade and be happy it turned back on after it cooled off a bit.
I shot with a 7D for years and never had it overheat. Not even at Edwards. The tables themselves must have been hot as...heck to do that.

So I say, sure someone will get it to overheat by cooking it taking stills and that same person will likely try and make a big deal about it becaue A.) Their stupid or B.)They have an agenda.
If someone sets their R5 on a sizzling hot table and it overheats, I'll agree with you. If it overheats shooting stills in hand it will be a PR nightmare.
 

dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
1,627
1,171
I think Canon is just being conservative with the heat tolerance. How is the Camera able to do 4k30fps for hours and never overheat and get hotter than when shooting 8k raw. Armando said the camera was cold to the touch, the battery was cold but still couldn’t shoot 8k. That leads me to believe the camera is not on a heat tolerance but more a time restriction. That Explains Dan Watson test against the R5 and A7siii, How is the canon always the same 33min in the hoT direct sunlight and 33 minutes in the air condition, doesn’t make since, if it was heat limited the times would be much longer inside than outside but that’s not the case. I think Canon is going to release a firmware update to have unlimited 4k60fps and 4k120fps and maybe 90min of 4kHQ...something tells me canon was just waiting for the a7siii to release
I hope you're right, and that the same is true on the R6. I still think it's ridiculous to ship with such an issue, but if it's a firmware bug that's a lot better than a materials/engineering bug.
 

marioslrzn

EOS M50
Mar 11, 2019
34
41
Actually, GDs test did:

Also basically everyone testing the camera agreed that when the camera has heat built up, it will take hours to cool down. So it's not hard to find scenarios where that will prevent you from shooting any of the modes above 4K30.
But you keep coming back like the camera is useless and won’t work. Everybody understands that the high bit rates are limited. The camera never stops working for stills, standard 4k30fps , crop 1.5 oversampled 4k, 1080p120fps, 108060fps. So if you can’t live without 4k60fps 4k120fps or 8k unlimited, then this camera is not for you....so before you buy ask yourself do you need those unlimited. I think people that are buying this camera know that for stills and 4k30fps and under this camera will work flawless, Canon was stupid to give people these high bit rates and should of released them as a firmware. Then no one would be complaining about the camera and the high bit rates would of came as a bonus firmware and people would of been cheering that canon gave them a firmware with 8k, 4k60fps, 4k120fps which it’s competitors don’t offer none of them do. The A7r4 which is it’s closes competitor the R5 beats it in every possible scenario and yet canon comes out as the bad guy..
 

Max C

Canon 60D
Feb 9, 2020
110
116
You do realize that alot of companies are getting the stinky crap kicked out of them this valuation period right?

Canon exports globally - in case you haven't realized, that's not doing too well these days. Not sure why to be honest, but my ESP tells me something is happening ;)

Also, an ever smaller portion of their business is cameras - and even much smaller portion of that is full frame cameras.
Since launch of R6 and R5

Sony up 12.5%
Fuji up 4%
Panasonic level
Nikon down 8%
Canon down 12% on robust volumes

Agreed its a tough financial time for everyone, but Canon has underperformed everyone. With a poor earnings report, coupled with this release and the bleak overall economic picture, it's naive to think Canon is big enough to be insulated from a product release that has gone wrong. I am not saying that it can be catastrophic, but it will impact stock valuation in the near term.

Now when times are good, hiccups like this can be absorbed with cash flow being abundant, but in these lean and trying times, valuation will behave more volatile. You can reference the old adage, it's a straw that can break a camels back. Go look at their cash flow position year over year.

Now, granted you may not think that the product launch was a fail and everything is honkey doory in your mind... but the narrative out there isnt good, no matter how much you deny it or debate about it here.

Go do brief search on Canon R6 or Canon R5, what do you see? Exactly!!! That shit, is going to impact sales, that's what regular consumers are going to see.

Unless of course you also think Canon sales are only supported by you lot. Who see no issues and nothing but blue skies.

With that said, I hope they figure out a solution for those that have issues with the overheating, because I don't wish for them to fail, I don't wish for the product to flop, I just wish for them to do better. For you everything is ok and that's fine. For me not so much. And that's fine too.
 
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Dragon

EF 800L
May 29, 2019
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NoFilmSchool has done the most thorough R5 overheating test so far:

https://nofilmschool.com/testing-canon-r5-overheating

However one of the biggest deal breakers for us videographers was a tweet by Gerald Undone that after one hour of shooting stills the camera gave ZERO seconds of 4K HQ / 8K / 4K60p.

Other reports have said that just having the camera in standby overheats it.

Would be great if you could test this yourself and report back to us as those tests were all done on pre-production cameras.
This test was very thorough for an initial test and reported factually without any hype or BS. One thing to note was they left the camera on when cooling it down and there is no mention of the viewfinder refresh rate. The manual clearly states that the "smooth" (120 Hz) refresh rate consumes more power than the 60 Hz refresh rate. The manual also recommends turning off the camera when not in use for fastest cooldown, which makes perfect sense. Bottom line, I see nothing in the test that suggests that I would ever encounter an overheating issue for how I would use the camera.
 
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cornieleous

5D4 + R5
Jul 13, 2020
208
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Their data points are no less valid than yours.

The 1080p and 4k30...unless the latter was HQ mode...are "fluff" in the sense that we know the R5 can shoot them continuously in 85F weather even after overheating. They line skip and don't use very much processing power. How long did it have to cool before it could do a full 30m of 4k30hq or 4k60 again? Now tomorrow shoot stills for a while and switch to 4k30hq or 4k60: how much can you get?

That's part of the problem. It should have been much warmer, but the heat is getting trapped inside

Then you haven't looked at the reports.

If the camera can't meet expectations and user needs then people will go to other brands for solutions whether you think they are entitled or not. I would agree that continuous 8k / 4k60 / 4k30hq from a 45mp sensor would be unrealistic without a fan. But looking at the competition it is not unrealistic to expect acceptable recovery times, or to expect to be able to shoot stills all day and still have max or near max recording time.

It's like the cameras are insulated. That's a problem.
When user expectations are unrealistic, I don't know what any company can do. People interpreted the marketing as they could shoot 4K60/120 and 8K all day in any environment. Neither Canon R5 or any competition can do it. Canon was careless with marketing, the limits should have been part of the main bullets.

When people are posting hyped videos and getting paid to be talking heads and produce click bait- yes, their data points are sometimes less valid than a real customer. I have seen some of these "reviews" and a few are complete fools with no capability for intellect, making emotional content or deliberate sensationalism to make money. Some are not and make valid points. For the worst reviewers, their logical fallacies and amateur tests with poor reporting on sequence and conditions help no one. Then uneducated people who have little technical knowledge and no first hand experience go around parroting that bad info.

The narrative isn't good, you're absolutely right, but in large part because so many people are negative and prone to outrage these days. Canon has learned the hard way that the average buyer looking for the next big thing today is uneducated technically speaking, and thinks they can have everything in a tiny body. Most people know nothing about physics or how electronics technology actually works and think they are important for buying 'the best'. Where is the outrage that the Sony also over heats in several reviews? I own a Sony camera, so I'm no brand elitist. I just want rationality and objectivity.

You call my low resolution tests fluff but I was adamantly clear that I was testing for MY needs in a scenario that would envelope any scenario I would use for stills and casual video. I have a dedicated video camera for long shooting though. I also explained how ridiculous I think it is to expect a tiny mirrorless to ever be able to cool itself with high frame rate high resolution and IBIS combined, which you seem to agree with. The camera did more than what Canon said it would do for me, so that is enough for me. After about 20 minutes of cooling in an air conditioned room after a full auto shutdown, I had access to 4K60P again with no warnings or limits in the display. Regardless, I am not expecting this camera to do what I imagine or think I need, only what Canon tells me it can do which they did before anyone could buy it. They gave us the conditions their tests were run at and told us about this up front, which not every company does.

On thermals, industrial circuit parts are typically rated to 85°C worst-case use, processors and sensors may tolerate less. In a weather sealed tiny body with all the things these cameras are doing today, that temp is not far off unless the body can transfer heat to the air fast enough to stay ahead or in equilibirum thermally. Even reducing chip power consumption starts to become a minor slow down to the inevitable overheat. No one manufacturer is so far ahead they are going to solve that in a MILC with lots of data moving and compromises like weather sealing and IBIS that make cooling harder.

The heat may be mildly insulated from transfer to outside by weather sealing points but the body itself is the heatsink as Canon has said, and they used a specific magnesium alloy for this body to that end, since magnesium is not a great thermal conductor itself compared to copper. I assume the thermal paths are somewhat well designed for its intended use but a tiny MILC body that uses the magnesium alloy for heat dissipation has too many hot thermals close together to move the heat out unless the body is cooled rapidly or the activity stays within intended use. If your heat sink is hot and so is ambient air, you cannot remove heat fast enough. If the source keeps producing heat, things get worse not better. I've done product testing professionally and I know plenty about cooling circuits; will leave it at that.

The newest competition from Sony is running 12MP. Their IBIS is weaker. Their bitrates lower. The heat source is already cooler. They may have a more effective heat sink, and less weather sealing to allow some minor passive heat loss. Of course it will run some amount longer with cool ambient air, but if you are not cherry picking your reviewers, there are already many reports that theirs overheats as fast or worse in certain hot conditions, but is somewhat better in cooler ambient air than the R5. It is also not great for stills.

I don't want people to be silent about concerns, but for people to be educated, fair and objective when they present them and stop being so emotional and bashing things with negativity and no real knowledge. I want real reasoning, not parroting paid reviewers, etc. If the product is not for you, I wish you the best with whatever, truly! Same for all the people I have disagreed with on this forum, I wish them the best. I also hope Canon can improve the situation, although I think contacting a company directly can be a great way to get a message to them rather than spewing into the aether. For me, the R5 already does what it was designed to do and I was ok with that at purchase. For people who cannot accept the performance as stated, I don't get that.
 

wyotex43n

EOS M6 Mark II
Jan 24, 2016
51
36
Hmm, my best guess is that it is a bump protection for when you fold in the screen with the display pointed towards the back of the camera. Are those parts rubbery?

See the two little (probably rubbery) bumps to the very right of the display cutout? You can see similar bumps on the left side at the very ends of the half circle. It might be build as a half circle on this side to prevent pressure on the hinge.
Yes there are 4 bumps, 1 in each corner. But the semi circles looks to be just styling. Or Space for a radiator:)
 
Could I ask a favour from any of the early adopters. It’s fine to say no!

Can you take a test shot in conditions please where noise would be noticeable, then switch to a video mode which can make the camera overheat, let it overheat or get close to it, cool enough till you can shoot stills again and then repeat the stills shot?

The early view seems to be no issue shooting all day, which is good news, what I’d like to know (without the hype) is whether the heat buildup affects stills. And I assumed that taking shots in some level of low light where you expect noise might be the best way to notice it, but happy if others on the forum want to refine this to a better test case.

I think the more that we can get qualification on any impact to stills shooting from the heat would help make an informed decision for people who predominantly shoot stills. Not that we can get one right now, lol.

Thanks in advance.
 

derpderp

Pixel Peeper
Jan 31, 2020
165
203
got my R5 last night. absolutely enjoying it. The internal IBIS coupled with the unstabilized 28-70 F2 makes this a photographic beast.

PS: Notice i didn't say anything about video. Cause the R5 is not a video camera first and foremost. Anything who thinks otherwise is delusional.
 
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masterpix

EOS RP
Jun 29, 2016
232
160
However, I think that the overheating issue is not an easy one to resolve. The electronics has its limitation and due to the fact that the want the body to be sealed from dust and humidity narrow the available solutions dramatically. Heat sinks are an issue with almost any electronic equiptment, especially those that operates in such speeds (your PC cpu is about 70-90 most of the time and it has a fan to cool it).
 
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