I just wanted to clarify things about the EOS R5 and EOS R6 from yesterday’s report

cornieleous

5D4 + R5
Jul 13, 2020
208
735
The heat is not unpredictable, but it's not simple either. You'd have to use differential equations to calculate heat distribution and dissipation. It may not be as simple as you described especially when you want to predict the actual temperature (not just claim it'll get hotter).
You make a fair point, the details are not simple, but to me the basic concepts are mostly. Electronic component heat follows a conduction path from hot to cold to a heat sink surface area, and then convection to ambient air.

Predicting a temperature is best done by software like Solidworks or Ansys. No one I know hates themselves enough to manually crank out differential equations on a complex system like a circuit board and its heat paths.

My point, maybe badly expressed, was really that eventually a camera is going to get too hot with the sun burning down on it unless it has faster heat dumping ability than the source, and I find that impossible with these tiny bodies, so I stand by asserting any MILC will eventually get generically 'hotter' and eventually hotter is 'too hot'.
 
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I set my R5 in direct sunlight today in 85 degree ambient air. I shot back to back in order: 30 mins of 4K60P, 30 mins of 1080P, 30 mins of 4K30P, then 8.5 more mins of 4K60P before it shut itself down. In direct sunlight, with warm ambient air. 30 mins of 4K60P IPB was nearly 50GB- is it really practical? Also, I could have shot 1080P or 4K30 for a LOT longer, as those cycles did little to heat up the camera. For a while, the R5 was barely warmer than my powered off Canon 5D4 which I also set in the sun during the test. I'm pretty sure the reports of shooting stills preventing one minute of video later are either from Phoenix where it was 118 degrees today, or the reports are carelessly lacking all the things that came before to heat up the camera.
Thanks for doing the tests, I am happy to hear that things are not as bad as they seem in your conditions. I do agree however with another poster here that shooting 1080p is "fluff". I mean either you need 4k delivery or you don't, I usually don't start throwing in FHD footage. If I want to record FHD I can use basically any camera that was released the past 5 years or longer.
I also would have liked to see how long the camera was available for 4K60 after the cooldown, but there is so many parameters and usage scenarios, that everyone needs to test for themselves and decide if the results are ok for them. But that's what's good about all of the media buzz around this. People will test this camera to the core, as they should, and post their findings. And then everyone gets a clearer picture of the limitations. Wish my model was here so I could start doing tests as well instead of being stuck between Youtube and forum opinions. :)

For example from what I've read an external monitor changes the game in two ways:
- It will allow unlimited recording up to 4K60
- It will cause the camera to heat up in idle video, because the camera cannot activate the overheat control
So that again is a completely different scenario and test. That will enable me to shoot 4K60 all day long, but drive the camera at the "00:00s" timer for the whole day, which means no more 4K120.
Should I expect a camera this size to be able to do that? I don't know. Should I have to think about how an external recorder enables some modes but completely prevents others? That's exhausting on a shooting day.

There IS no hybrid camera that can do full frame high framerate and high resolution and stills all in one tiny MILC body.
Well you're absolutely right. However as a sidenote the R6 has a 20MP sensor end even overheats in 4K30...and that is just sub-par, even leaving out the unreleased A7S3. Even if you say the R5 is fine we gotta admit, that Canon regularly does seem to have some electronic design problems. I mean it's not the first time their processors are a bit underperforming (not being efficient enough for 4K x26* was the whole reason for the MJPEG codecs on past cameras). :)

The following is not directed at you, but because some people like to put words in my mouth:
- I have never stated that the camera is useless
- I have never stated it absolutely must be recalled or redesigned
- some people even still claim that my point is I want "8k unlimited". I get it, reading this whole thread is hard.
 
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Putting this in another reply, because it is an original thought and not part of the back-and-forth.

Keeping in mind the following findings:
- Camera can record 4K30 limitless, regardless of temperature and will basically never overheat.
- Camera can do 4K60 unlimited if you offload video compression externally. It will claim "00:00s", but keep recording.
- And even though the two scenrarios above work "when overheated", the camera will refuse to even record a second of 4K120.
- The camera does retain heat very well.

I am assuming the following:
- It is not the sensor that is overheating as much as the more internal components. People have tried cooling down the R* with the lens off and an airblower and it still would not come down from it's "ovearheated" mode. If it was just the sensor I think we would see better results from cooling the camera with the lens off.
- Also it is likely not the sensor, because 4K60 externally works limitless. If it was the sensor overheating it shouldn't matter if we record internally or externally.

So my speculation is this:
It's actually a CPU problem combined with the insulation.

Think about your computer, or better your laptop. If the case gets too warm, the CPU clock speed starts to drop. Which means you can still use Word and your web browser, but playing a game at 60fps or encoding video in real time will no longer be possible. Your CPU clocks down to protect itself from overheating.

So what if the overheating warning is not just a plain "too hot" in the sense of "OMG 90°C", but a "too hot to reach the clock performance to encode this mode reliably". That would explain why 4K60 external still works limitless even though it should produce a lot of heat, because it does not require as much processing power.

It also makes sense because Canon has never had the most efficient chips when it came to video encoding. No one really knows what node they manufacture their Digic X in or how power efficient it is. People shouldn't really have to really, if everything "just worked".

So what would we learn from this:
Well, if it's a performance problem/heat limitation of the Digic X there is only three things you can do:
- Let the engineers work extra hours and come up with every little bit of power saving measure they can come up with, then implement that in firmware.
- Get some better cooling in there. From early pictures I've seen and the fact that the recording times are environmentally stable, it seems the Digic X is basically running without being heatsinked. If this is the case then even some minor form of heatsinking could do wonders here.
- Simply raise the Digic X temperature ceiling when which clock speed is allowed, leaving less safety margin. As we all know Canon likes to play it safe and reliable, maybe now they actually see how the chip performs on a large scale they can squeeze out a couple more percent.
Unrealistic: Complete recall and replace the Digic X with the Digic X rev. B. This is completely unrealistic from a manufacturing standpoint and would delay the camera at least half a year. Just listing this for completeness sake.

So tl;dr:
I think the chip is designed in the usual Canon fashion, i.e. being a bit underspecced for video, and power management/self preservation will cause it to throttle, leaving no performance to encode the higher end modes.
My guess is that if they had allowed 4K120 and 8K externally, we would have much longer recording times unless finally the sensor gives in.
 
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Deleted member 378221

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Another data point (skipped to conclusion):

Exact time of the video statement is 15:08
"[...] but when it comes to the overheating issues for video, even shooting photos, I mean I would take some pictures and then hand the camera to Levi and he might might only have 10 minutes of video recording left on that, just because I was taking pictures. [...]"

Again, not saying other measurements are invalid, but neither is this one. And yeah, you can claim that shooting in direct sun makes the problem worse and is not realistic for your use case. But it was only 27°C and how much heat/sun do you think acceptable before shooting pictures definitely takes away from video recording time?
 

SecureGSM

2 x 5D IV
Feb 26, 2017
2,376
1,245
Serious questions: Are the video features of the 1Dx III comparable to the R5? Have these issues been found in the 1DX III?

If not, why not?

The 1Dx III should be better sealed than the R5, so it should hold heat in even more than the R5, right? If you subtract the size of the battery grip, the 1Dx III isn't all that much larger, so what could they have done in the 1Dx III to dissipate the heat so much more effectively?
in an single word: IBIS, it makes heat mitigation task really challenging. you cannot have a solid heatsink attached to the rear of the sensor for the obvious reason.
 

SecureGSM

2 x 5D IV
Feb 26, 2017
2,376
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You are right - cold (or heat) not entering the body points to a faulty (or severely underdesigned) thermal interface. This is confirmed by testimonies that when the camera overheats, the body stays cold.

However, the "cooling adapter" is certainly ridiculous.
Keen to understand (genuinely) why you believe that such an adaptor would be certainly ridiculous ?
 

mppix

EOS RP
Feb 13, 2018
209
177
Keen to understand (genuinely) why you believe that such an adaptor would be certainly ridiculous ?
Just some points come to mind:
- The patent shows an extender without lens elements -> for EF lenses only
- The heat is transmitted through the RF mount (with what seem to be heatpipes). To be effective the mount needs to heat up to nearly the temperature that it is cooling (say 60-80C). However, this happens also when native lenses are connected, that are constantly being heated up at least at the mount point. I'd be surprised if this tech is in the cameras but this can easily be verified by R5 owners (is the mount hot when the camera overheats?)
- The patent suggests variations of an air channel design with small fans. This is not a common thermal solution because it requires small high pressure fans (tend to spin fast and be loud). With unfiltered ambient air, such channels tend to jam and a filter worsens the pressure drop requirements.
- The lens mount (or any two solid surfaces) are never well connected thermally, i.e. there is always a remaining (micrometer) air layer between source and sink that acts as a thermal insulator. You would need to put thermal paste/grease on the lensmount when you attach the "heat-sink-extender" to get good cooling.

Overall, you get a much better (as in more compact) thermal solution by putting a fan in the body, e.g. blower style fan in the bottom plate. Such a solution can certainly be made weather sealed and removable/serviceable/cleanable.
 
Jul 14, 2020
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You are right - cold (or heat) not entering the body points to a faulty (or severely underdesigned) thermal interface. This is confirmed by testimonies that when the camera overheats, the body stays cold.

However, the "cooling adapter" is certainly ridiculous.
Never mind. I saw your answer reply to another user.

Which cooling adapter(s) are you referring to? Only about Canon's external fan adapter? Or also their design CR posted a week ago or so (not sure if it is a patent or just design idea for now).
 
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Memdroid

EOS 90D
Nov 12, 2013
156
76
I have the R5 since thursday. Yesterday and today I have had 2 extensive photoshoots and shot about 5000 images per pop (about 4 hours each). The R5 does not overheat during stills shooting! It works just as any camera. Stop spreading these uninformed/misunderstood B.S.!
 
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Just some points come to mind:
- The patent shows an extender without lens elements -> for EF lenses only
- The heat is transmitted through the RF mount (with what seem to be heatpipes). To be effective the mount needs to heat up to nearly the temperature that it is cooling (say 60-80C). However, this happens also when native lenses are connected, that are constantly being heated up at least at the mount point. I'd be surprised if this tech is in the cameras but this can easily be verified by R5 owners (is the mount hot when the camera overheats?)
- The patent suggests variations of an air channel design with small fans. This is not a common thermal solution because it requires small high pressure fans (tend to spin fast and be loud). With unfiltered ambient air, such channels tend to jam and a filter worsens the pressure drop requirements.
- The lens mount (or any two solid surfaces) are never well connected thermally, i.e. there is always a remaining (micrometer) air layer between source and sink that acts as a thermal insulator. You would need to put thermal paste/grease on the lensmount when you attach the "heat-sink-extender" to get good cooling.

Overall, you get a much better (as in more compact) thermal solution by putting a fan in the body, e.g. blower style fan in the bottom plate. Such a solution can certainly be made weather sealed and removable/serviceable/cleanable.
You seem to have some knowledge on heat dissipation. So let me ask you, what are your thoughts about this idea? (Please be gentle on me if you think the idea is ridiculous, heh heh :) )

What about another hand grip option to dissipate the heat?

The camera design priorities seems to be weather sealing over heat dissipation. The battery cover is 1 part of the weather seal system. The cover needs to be removed to attach the 2 grips designed to be used wit the camera. Could Canon have made a way to transfer the heat out of the body through the battery compartment and into a grip? The grip could have small fan(s) or heat sinks that would let the air out in some sort of opening(s) in the grip. Those openings would come with different covers, for minor weather proofing (and medium heat transfer) , high weather proofing (less heat transfer) or just not use them at all to get the most heat out. The grip could have a disclosure sticker on it stating something like: "Use of this grip will reduce the weather sealing system dramatically".

This would give more versatility for uses to use video for various conditions, allowing for weather proofing or longer video recording times.
 

mppix

EOS RP
Feb 13, 2018
209
177
You seem to have some knowledge on heat dissipation. So let me ask you, what are your thoughts about this idea? (Please be gentle on me if you think the idea is ridiculous, heh heh :) )

What about another hand grip option to dissipate the heat?

The camera design priorities seems to be weather sealing over heat dissipation. The battery cover is 1 part of the weather seal system. The cover needs to be removed to attach the 2 grips designed to be used wit the camera. Could Canon have made a way to transfer the heat out of the body through the battery compartment and into a grip? The grip could have small fan(s) or heat sinks that would let the air out in some sort of opening(s) in the grip. Those openings would come with different covers, for minor weather proofing (and medium heat transfer) , high weather proofing (less heat transfer) or just not use them at all to get the most heat out. The grip could have a disclosure sticker on it stating something like: "Use of this grip will reduce the weather sealing system dramatically".

This would give more versatility for uses to use video for various conditions, allowing for weather proofing or longer video recording times.
Actually, I think it is pretty reasonable to think that Canon could have designed a battery grip that improves head dissipation. To me, this is technically much simpler and more effective that a "heat-sink mount adapter". I believe Fuji does this on the T3 (maybe also T4) to some degreee, where the full video specs are only accessible with grip. However, such a grip must be co-designed with the camera to actually achieve the desired effect (heat needs to be transferred through the bottom plate and battery compartment).

However, I would think that the R5/R6 can be passively cooled, but the needed technology was simply not economically viable or technically ready for mass-production at launch (it may for example require new body materials, manufacturing of new cooling systems at scale, ...).
An R5 has 7.2V×2.13Ah=15.3Wh battery. Let us assume that when the R5 consumes the most power (e.g. in the highest quality video recording mode), the battery lasts 1.5h-3h (guess on my part), then the R5/R6 generate 5W-10W internal heat. This is likely in the ballpark of the max power consumption (=internal heat generation) of an S1H, A7siii, and possibly also 1DXiii. For reference, this is roughly comparable with high-end mobile phones or tablets.

Unfortunately, I was not able to find an R5 or R6 "exploded view picture" that would reveal what the primary cooling mechanisms (heat conduction only, heat pipes, vapor chambers, ...) and where the primary cooling surfaces are (bottom plate, front, all similar). My best guess is that the R5/R6 have similar heat dissipation mechanisms than the 5D/6D with modest improvements (that result in cameras that need long times to cool down).
If this is true, the body is to some degree a thermal isolator such that external airflows, putting ice cubes on the camera, or any other thermal solution has only a mild effect on cooling the camera - the only upside is that the camera does not really heat up internally when exposed to direct sunlight. All these effects have been observed in one way or another.

Overall, we may have to accept that the R5, like the 5Div, is a fantastic stills camera (possibly the best) but the "workhorse" video features are limited to some use cases and cannot generally compete with the best in class (like S1H or A7siii).
My speculation would be the following: Canon product design/engineering likely build the R5 to compete with A7r and Z7; and R6 to compete with A7 and Z6.
However if true, the current price points are somewhat delusional high (edited) but that would also apply to many RF lenses.. so who knows.
 
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dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
1,627
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When user expectations are unrealistic, I don't know what any company can do.
It is not unrealistic to expect to be able to shoot more than 20-30m of HQ video in a day. Competing camera bodies overheat but are usable again...really usable again, not usable for 1-3m...after short breaks. They also respond to external cooling with fans or ice packs. Heck, the X-T3 will will recover a good chunk of record time if you turn it off for two minutes and change the battery!

There is very clearly a thermal issue here, whether it's firmware (less likely) or hardware (more likely; they're likely not conducting heat away from DIGIC X or the body shell like they should). This is well below what competitors are offering.

People interpreted the marketing as they could shoot 4K60/120 and 8K all day in any environment.
That's a straw man. No one expected that. The record times Gerald Undone found in testing are perfectly respectable, but not the 2 hour minimum recovery times. Nor the near complete loss of HQ video modes just from shooting stills or looking through the EVF for an extended period.

And now we have a report of shutdown from shooting stills. Maybe this is a one off quirk, maybe he's trolling the forum. But maybe it's a sign of more bad news to come. It's not unreasonable to expect this as the next shoe to drop given the fact that stills shooting destroys HQ record times. Heat is building up even for stills.

When people are posting hyped videos and getting paid to be talking heads and produce click bait- yes, their data points are sometimes less valid than a real customer.
When Armando Ferreira uses the R5 in a real production environment to recreate famous movie scenes and concludes that the R5 has thermal issues that severely limit its usefulness, it has thermal issues. He is not a click baiter and he has been more than fair to the EOS R and to Canon in general.

Where is the outrage that the Sony also over heats in several reviews? I own a Sony camera, so I'm no brand elitist. I just want rationality and objectivity.
Are there any Sony bodies with recovery times of 2-6 hours?

I also explained how ridiculous I think it is to expect a tiny mirrorless to ever be able to cool itself with high frame rate high resolution and IBIS combined, which you seem to agree with.
I did when I thought the drama was people expecting continuous footage. Looking at the reports it's clear people are shocked at the recovery times and at how merely turning the camera on eats into record times. These are supposed to be hybrid cameras. They're no good as hybrid cameras to wedding photographers who can't switch to video because they've been shooting stills (as but one example).

Contrast this with the competition: the X-T3 and X-T4 may be APS-C, but they've also been used for short, Hollywood-quality films without any severe thermal issues. (They will overheat but they also quickly recover.)
 

cornieleous

5D4 + R5
Jul 13, 2020
208
735
It is not unrealistic to expect to be able to shoot more than 20-30m of HQ video in a day. Competing camera bodies overheat but are usable again...really usable again, not usable for 1-3m...after short breaks. They also respond to external cooling with fans or ice packs. Heck, the X-T3 will will recover a good chunk of record time if you turn it off for two minutes and change the battery!

There is very clearly a thermal issue here, whether it's firmware (less likely) or hardware (more likely; they're likely not conducting heat away from DIGIC X or the body shell like they should). This is well below what competitors are offering.



That's a straw man. No one expected that. The record times Gerald Undone found in testing are perfectly respectable, but not the 2 hour minimum recovery times. Nor the near complete loss of HQ video modes just from shooting stills or looking through the EVF for an extended period.

And now we have a report of shutdown from shooting stills. Maybe this is a one off quirk, maybe he's trolling the forum. But maybe it's a sign of more bad news to come. It's not unreasonable to expect this as the next shoe to drop given the fact that stills shooting destroys HQ record times. Heat is building up even for stills.



When Armando Ferreira uses the R5 in a real production environment to recreate famous movie scenes and concludes that the R5 has thermal issues that severely limit its usefulness, it has thermal issues. He is not a click baiter and he has been more than fair to the EOS R and to Canon in general.



Are there any Sony bodies with recovery times of 2-6 hours?



I did when I thought the drama was people expecting continuous footage. Looking at the reports it's clear people are shocked at the recovery times and at how merely turning the camera on eats into record times. These are supposed to be hybrid cameras. They're no good as hybrid cameras to wedding photographers who can't switch to video because they've been shooting stills (as but one example).

Contrast this with the competition: the X-T3 and X-T4 may be APS-C, but they've also been used for short, Hollywood-quality films without any severe thermal issues. (They will overheat but they also quickly recover.)
I own the camera, I'm not basing my opinions off of youtube.

I'm really tired of the blathering about the competition when none of the comparisons make sense, and many of the people are trying to make the R5 something it is not. This camera is not well below the competition in any way if you make an accurate and fair comparison. This is a mirrorless 5D5 with strong IBIS, EVF, weather sealing, and a high MP sensor, and short duty HQ video capability (making it a great hybrid camera) all in a tiny body. It is not a 12MP dedicated video camera with weaker IBIS and much less sensor to read out (a large thermal advantage and less capable hybrid). It is not a 1DX3 with an optical viewfinder and smaller MP sensor in a huge body that can dissipate heat easily. It is not a small APC or other type of sensor camera that produces little heat to readout. Compare apples to apples when it comes to data throughput, features and body size. If you are not going to be objective about overall capability when considering heat generation and ability to remove heat, don't bother. None of the comparisons mean much if those cameras are either less capable, generate less heat by having smaller sensors, or cool faster by having larger bodies- and in most comparisons all three. I don't see any bashing the new Sony for its 12MP stills, but I can tell you how much that will suck for most serious landscape photographers.

Instead of spending hours on the internet, and parroting what others said, I ran my own test for my needs. I saw no record times diminish just by idling the camera. I shot 4K60 for 30 minutes and kept the camera in direct sun for over 90 minutes. It shut down when I tried to run a second round of 4K60 8+ minutes in, exceeding what Canon said it would do and also exceeding what I will ever do with it. I cooled it for 20-25 minutes in normal house AC and had no warnings or limits upon restart. The point is, people are reacting to single data points, most from talking heads who make their living blathering about gear and we all know controversy pays. I am done with people quoting youtube. I'm done with people trying to use this as a cinema camera or sports camera or dedicated video camera and expecting perfect results. It's a hybrid, not a specialist. That is why I own a dedicated video camera: each tool has a purpose.
 

cornieleous

5D4 + R5
Jul 13, 2020
208
735
Actually, I think it is pretty reasonable to think that Canon could have designed a battery grip that improves head dissipation. To me, this is technically much simpler and more effective that a "heat-sink mount adapter". I believe Fuji does this on the T3 (maybe also T4) to some degreee, where the full video specs are only accessible with grip. However, such a grip must be co-designed with the camera to actually achieve the desired effect (heat needs to be transferred through the bottom plate and battery compartment).

However, I would think that the R5/R6 can be passively cooled, but the needed technology was simply not economically viable or technically ready for mass-production at launch (it may for example require new body materials, manufacturing of new cooling systems at scale, ...).
An R5 has 7.2V×2.13Ah=15.3Wh battery. Let us assume that when the R5 consumes the most power (e.g. in the highest quality video recording mode), the battery lasts 1.5h-3h (guess on my part), then the R5/R6 generate 5W-10W internal heat. This is likely in the ballpark of the max power consumption (=internal heat generation) of an S1H, A7siii, and possibly also 1DXiii. For reference, this is roughly comparable with high-end mobile phones or tablets.

Unfortunately, I was not able to find an R5 or R6 "exploded view picture" that would reveal what the primary cooling mechanisms (heat conduction only, heat pipes, vapor chambers, ...) and where the primary cooling surfaces are (bottom plate, front, all similar). My best guess is that the R5/R6 have similar heat dissipation mechanisms than the 5D/6D with modest improvements (that result in cameras that need long times to cool down).
If this is true, the body is to some degree a thermal isolator such that external airflows, putting ice cubes on the camera, or any other thermal solution has only a mild effect on cooling the camera - the only upside is that the camera does not really heat up internally when exposed to direct sunlight. All these effects have been observed in one way or another.

Overall, we may have to accept that the R5, like the 5Div, is a fantastic stills camera (possibly the best) but the "workhorse" video features are limited to some use cases and cannot generally compete with the best in class (like S1H or A7siii).
My speculation would be the following: Canon product design/engineering likely build the R5 to compete with A7r and Z7; and R6 to compete with A7 and Z6.
However if true, the current price points are somewhat delusional but that would also apply to many RF lenses.. so who knows.

Not bad reasoning, with assumptions used. From what little has been said, Canon indicated the magnesium alloy of this body was perhaps modified to be more thermally conductive than previous, which is good since many magnesium alloys are not that thermally conductive. It feels that way in my hands so that specualtion seems reasonable to me that it is a new blend and the body is a heat sink. Even holding it for 5-10 minutes indoors powered off it warms slightly; the 5D4 does not, the 6D does not.

Why do you consider the price 'delusional'? That wording seems unreasonable. Consider that for many, the short duty HQ video will be useful in a way that does not overheat giving more capability than stills only, and most should be buying this as the mirrorless equivalent of what would be the 5D5. The 5D4 was $3500 at release in 2016. It had no IBIS and overall was much less capable. The 5D3 was similarly priced at release, and also matched pricing close to competitors. The A7R4 was $3500 at release. The competition that is actually comparable (stills centric hybrids) are all similarly priced at release. People keep making the wrong comparisons.

RF I also don't see how you would consider them overpriced or 'delusional' in their pricing. They are amazing optically and priced similarly to the competition, particularly if overall performance, build quality and weather sealing are considered. There might be a slight price premium there, but hardly what I would call 'delusional'.
 

mppix

EOS RP
Feb 13, 2018
209
177
Not bad reasoning, with assumptions used. From what little has been said, Canon indicated the magnesium alloy of this body was perhaps modified to be more thermally conductive than previous, which is good since many magnesium alloys are not that thermally conductive. It feels that way in my hands so that specualtion seems reasonable to me that it is a new blend and the body is a heat sink. Even holding it for 5-10 minutes indoors powered off it warms slightly; the 5D4 does not, the 6D does not.

Why do you consider the price 'delusional'? That wording seems unreasonable. Consider that for many, the short duty HQ video will be useful in a way that does not overheat giving more capability than stills only, and most should be buying this as the mirrorless equivalent of what would be the 5D5. The 5D4 was $3500 at release in 2016. It had no IBIS and overall was much less capable. The 5D3 was similarly priced at release, and also matched pricing close to competitors. The A7R4 was $3500 at release. The competition that is actually comparable (stills centric hybrids) are all similarly priced at release. People keep making the wrong comparisons.

RF I also don't see how you would consider them overpriced or 'delusional' in their pricing. They are amazing optically and priced similarly to the competition, particularly if overall performance, build quality and weather sealing are considered. There might be a slight price premium there, but hardly what I would call 'delusional'.
"Delusional" is probably excessive in particular as we are discussing launch prices (edited in original post to "high"). My thinking was simply that "fully fledged video specs" would have kept the R5 price point permanently in the ballpark of the S1H, i.e. ~$4k. As is, it will have to drop to A7r and Z7 prices, i.e. ~$3k.
The lens comment comes from the workhorse lenses that I'd care to buy, e.g. the f2.8 trinity vs. their EF version. I understand that the RF lenses are better, there is an early adopter tax in tech, but as technology advances we should be getting better things at similar price points. Maybe in the future...

PS. by any chance did you notice if the lens mount gets warm/hot when the camera shows a temperature warning?
 
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dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
1,627
1,171
I'm really tired of the blathering about the competition when none of the comparisons make sense,
I'm really tired of people mindlessly defending the situation because it's Canon or it's "their camera." When the first complaints hit it was fair to think "crazy YouTubers believing they had 24/7 8k." But the data available now shows there is a problem.

The thermal situation means wedding and event photographers basically have to treat the camera as a stills camera, or perhaps as an EOS R with FF line skipped readout instead of 1.7x cropped. Given the two reports of overheating while shooting stills (one here, one at FM) it may mean sports and outdoor photographers have to be careful or avoid the model altogether. (In fairness until this is replicated it may have been defective units. But the report here is detailed and from a known forum member. If the unit was not defective, if this is to be expected, then it is DOA for many sports/wildlife/outdoor photographers.) And cinema use is basically out. The R5 won't even be used for short captures during crash scenes (5D2 on the set of Fury Road) because nobody would setup a scene like that and take a risk that the camera would overheat before the crash.

This camera is not well below the competition in any way if you make an accurate and fair comparison.
It is behind most (all?) competing 4k hybrids in terms of usable footage you can capture in a day due to excessive (2+ hour) cool down times. This is tragic given how capable the camera's sensor and video modes are.

This is a mirrorless 5D5 with strong IBIS, EVF, weather sealing, and a high MP sensor, and short duty HQ video capability (making it a great hybrid camera) all in a tiny body.
No. Short duty HQ capture is out because you can't trust it. You can't trust that when you want to switch to 4k60 to grab a great clip of a wedding couple walking, dancing, or kissing...after a day of shooting stills...that it will have anything more than 0m record time. Or that it won't shutdown in the middle of the grab. This reduces it to a great stills camera but only an OK-to-mediocre hybrid camera based on how you feel about 4k30 line skipped video.

It is not a 12MP dedicated video camera with weaker IBIS and much less sensor to read out (a large thermal advantage and less capable hybrid).
Stop thinking about the A7s3. This is not a simple matter of market misclassification. If there were no thermal issues it would be very clear to everyone that the A7s3 is a very cinema focused camera (like the S1H) and the R5 the ultimate hybrid camera. And absent these thermal issues, the R5 would be the ultimate hybrid. The camera to bring people back from Sony. Canon would not lose R5 sales to the A7s3. Heck, you would have people who would own both. But with these thermal issues they will lose sales to other MILCs in a shrinking market.

For that matter, absent these thermal issues the R5 would make inroads into cinema because some people absolutely would use the 8k mode.

Compare apples to apples when it comes to data throughput, features and body size.
Other cameras, many with smaller bodies that are less of a heatsink, shed their heat and are ready to go with 5, 10, 15m breaks. Which means in normal use they can function without thermal issues for hours because you don't normally grab a continuous 30m 4k60 clip. You grab 2m here, 1m there, 5m here, with breaks in between, especially if you are at an event or wedding. But that doesn't work on these new R bodies because heat builds, even while shooting stills, and doesn't go any where.

Such a stumble for what, the lack of a copper heat pipe? Make the bodies a little bit thicker if needed to have the copper to conduct that heat away from the DIGIC X.

If you are not going to be objective about overall capability when considering heat generation and ability to remove heat, don't bother.
Objectively speaking, Canon will lose sales over this, and will lose customers to other brands. It's not like this is the rumored 83-100mp R body. Canon could honestly release something like that with no video at all and be fine, as long as there's a 5-series R body that's reliable. The R5 is not reliable for video. The R6 is not reliable for video. What are event and wedding photographers supposed to do, stick with the R?

The point is, people are reacting to single data points, most from talking heads who make their living blathering about gear and we all know controversy pays.
No, you have the single data point and you want to hand wave all the data points coming in from others. That's fine for you but terrible for Canon sales.
 
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kimster

I'm New Here
Jul 9, 2020
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I wonder how many people who have received their R5 are thinking of returning it OR selling on ebay? A poll would be interesting. I am seriously considering my many years of devotion to Canon. Hearing about problems with the USA website and then Canon Image cloud services only makes me more nervous about the future. It is inconceivable to me that the R5 will not now undergo a re-design or upgrade of some kind. Not because it really needs it for most people, but to try and stem the bad publicity. Rightly or wrongly, my joy of getting a new camera has dissipated already. I can't unsee articles, comments or videos.
 
Jul 30, 2020
2
6
It's weird... up until a few weeks ago, everybody shot 1080p (at least all the big name Youtubers) because 4K was too big and difficult to edit. People just wanted full frame 4K on the Canon... and now they have it... normal 4K doesn't overheat on the R5 at all, and it's full frame and though not as sharp as HQ mode, it's still better than 4K on the EOS-R.

The new modes, like 4K60/120 and 8K overheat, as does the super HQ oversampled mode... these are things that didn't exist in full frame before for the most part except for the new (and expensive) 20 MP 1DX3. XT4 overheats in 4K 60 after 14 minutes and that's a small sensor. All of Sony's cameras to date overheat in 4K (Daniel Schiffer announced last week his A7III overheats in 4K30 after about 20 mins). Sony A7SIII was just announced and it has heat issues, but much better than anything before... and that wont be out for 2 months, and it's a crippled 12 MP camera.

I think people have been given an inch and are taking a mile here.

But with that said, many are not having heat issues in the real world (ie, not sitting the camera in the sun and letting it run nonstop to test it out, or filiming 8k on movie sets like Armando Ferrera). DSI PICTURES has a great Youtube channel, he filmed "all day long" in 8K raw and had no overheat issues- the overheat icon didn't even pop up once! And he wasn't shooting in the arctic, but rather in Australia, where daily temps are about 15-20c (normal room temps, or a nice day here in Canada).

Anybody who wants to shoot uninterupted 8K for hours, you will have problems. People who need to shoot 4K 120 for more than 30 mins nonstop, I think you may need to rethink how you shoot (that's 2 hours of super slomo).

I think 99% of the issue is the whole "Sony vs Canon" crap. The Sony people were really butthurt this year when the R5 was announced. I know at least a dozen who were ready to sell all their gear and get an R5 because "Sony was stagnant and letting us down".

Then the A7SIII was rumoured, and the Sony hype machine (ie, Youtubers like Gerald Undumb and 10000 Sony Ambassadors who only care about video and vlogging) set into action and the war rages on.

I would love to see a firmware to maybe double the heat limits (Sony does this in their cameras like the A7SIII, it increases the temp at which the camera shuts down but at risk of lockups or file corruption (Dan Watson had this happen to him on the A7SIII)). But I would more like to see that 30 min record limit removed (I thought after 2019 that wasn't necessary?), and even more than that I hope they follow thru with the promise to add 1080-120 (how did they not include that?!) and Clog3 in the next firmware.
 
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