Initial thoughts on the 5D4 after some use

Answering some questions to the OP (me)...

- I haven't had the heart to produce RAWs yet through DPP. I fiddled with it in order to test out the DP RAW stuff (which was fun, if not overly useful), but that software is almost as bad as iTunes in terms of interface. I'm sure Adobe will come along shortly with an update.

Ahhh, the interface. Thank you for adding that context. In a previous thread, I tried to figure out why people hated DPP so much. I have had no major problems with its functionality, but I am not a fan of the interface either. That part I completely agree with.

It would be nice if Canon allowed you to save files to DNG format in camera. I read yesterday though that you can produce a JPG from RAW in camera though. That will be quite useful to me I think.
 
Upvote 0
Wideopen asked...
How do you like the white balance compare to 5D III/6D. Is there an improvement?

I find it an enormous improvement over the 5D3. Never owned the 6D, so I can't say on that one (it is newer than the 5D3). It is, however, not dissimilar to my 7D2, which really rocks the white balance when set on auto, except for obscure circumstances, like mixed lighting sources that are far off from normal. I think the AWB put into the 7D2 has filtered through to the subsequent cameras. I know they touted improved WB in the marketing materials, but I'm not sure if this isn't just the 7D2 tech brought into the 5 series. If there is a difference over and above the 7D2 tech, it's not a large enough difference that I've detected it yet.
 
Upvote 0
So, a bunch of you asked that I follow through with my musing about testing the 7D2 versus the 1DX versus the 5D4 on low-light, reach-limited circumstances. The three cameras approach this problem with very different advantages.

I ran some very small tests today and it was interesting. The upshot was that, indeed, the 5D4 is likely to be my new wildlife camera under these circumstances. The catch: there are different sets of circumstances under which each camera is best.

The setup:
- 100-400 II placed on a sturdy tripod
- Shady, wooded stone wall setting demanding at least 1600 ISO (also did well-lit set; more on that later)
- All shots manually focused via liveview with magnification
- With the 5D4, which can autofocus with f/8 on most points, I put the 1.4xIII TC on the lens (note, the difference in field of view between the crop camera at 400 versus the full frame + 1.4x at 400 was not much at all). With the 1DX, I tried it both with and without the TC. As a practical matter, with just the center point able to focus at f/8, I'm not going to keep the TC on the lens with the 1Dx if I think I'll be shooting anything that moves.
- The 7D2 was limited to 1600 ISO, and the two full frame cameras were pushed to 3200, which is a realistic setting in these sorts of shooting conditions, especially given that they were shooting f/8 versus the 7D2's f/5.6.


POOR LIGHT RESULTS:
1) Here is the main result: when you have both low light and you need more reach, then the two full frame cameras do better than the 7D2. This was true both when I had them on the 1.4x TC III and when I used them bare. The full frame IQ advantage in low light just overpowered any crop reach advantage the 7D2 had.

2) Between the two full frame cameras, the 1DX shooting at 400mm without a TC (realistic conditions) did better than the 5D4, even when the picture was upsampled to the same field of view. Stick a TC on the 1DX, and it also out-resolved the 5D4 in low light just a bit. I don't consider a TC on the 1DX realistic, though because of the lack of focus points at f/8. These differences were very, very small, and among multiple shots done, the answer sometimes shifted based probably on slight variations of focus sharpness. Interestingly, I did some bare lens tests between the two of them later in even lower light and the 5D4 had better quality, largely due to significantly less noise.

GOOD LIGHT RESULTS:
1) The 7D2 beat both full frame bodies. This surprised me in the degree to which it was better when zoomed in to 1:1 pixel ratio. In retrospect, I'd like to test the 5D4 without the TC against the 7D2 in good light. It may be that the TC slightly lessened the IQ, disallowing the 30 megapixel advantage from fully tolling. But, then again, 50 percent linear advantage in pixels isn't much of an advantage versus a 1.6x crop factor, which is geometric in how it affects the image.

2) Among the two full frame bodies, the 5D4 with 1.4x TC bested the 1Dx shooting the lens bare in good light. The megapixel advantage also tipped things in favor of the 5D4 in good light when the 1DX also had the TC on.

THE UPSHOT:
In bad light, the order of most desirable camera for image quality is 1DX, 5D4 + 1.4xTCIII and then 7D2. Put these bodies in good light, however, and the order reverses to 7D2, 5D4 + 1.4xTCIII, and then 1Dx. I need to do more testing in other situations to be confident in these results. This is all a first impression.

I was thinking of selling my 1DX, but now I'm not so sure. Between it's incredible low light performance and the 12 fps, that would be a shame to lose. The decision will probably come down to my judgement of how good the autofocus is on the 5D4 with the TC attached. I have a very good impression of it right now, but I haven't yet had the opportunity to really stress it with birds in flight, etc.

At some point in the future I will do similar tests with more varied setups and save some comparison images to post.
 
Upvote 0
Hi Tiggy.
Thank you very much for the effort you have put in to this, interesting set of results.

Cheers, Graham.

So, a bunch of you asked that I follow through with my musing about testing the 7D2 versus the 1DX versus the 5D4 on low-light, reach-limited circumstances. The three cameras approach this problem with very different advantages.

8<8< snip snip for brevity.

At some point in the future I will do similar tests with more varied setups and save some comparison images to post.
 
Upvote 0
aa_angus said:
Ph0t0 said:
- To Ph0t0, I think the image quality in ISO 1600-6400 is very much like the 1dX, except the shadows draw up better, and you have 30mp with which to do either cropping or downsampling. I really need to do some side-by-side comparisons, but my rough sense is that for low light, I'm not sure which is better because it's pretty close. My beef with the 5D4 is that it is only 7 frames per second.

I'd like to do a shootout with the 7D2, the 1DX and the 5D4 to see which throws the best image quality at a long distance, where the subject would benefit from cropping (most of the time with me). Those three cameras come at the same problem with quite different answers. I suspect when I have time to do this, it won't be a blow-out under those circumstances. I'll have to do the 5D and 1D against each other for non-reach-limited, low light IQ as well.

Thks for the reply, I'm considering buying this camera for landscape and low light photography so I appreciate this info. I've been looking at the online comparisons and though the 5D IV images look like they have less noise on higher ISO, they do look a bit softer than photos from other Canon cameras even at lower ISO range. I'm not sure why that is. I hope it is just because of lack of ACR support at the moment.

Trust me mate, the 5DIV images aren't softer at all. When you pixel peep, they easily out perform 5DIII for pure sharpness. The "Fine Detail" picture style is also a godsend.
I have tried to convert a few RAW images to TIFF with DPP, the results using default setting were a catastrophe. All detail was gone. Seems like DPP was using very high noise reduction and that killed everything. My main workflow, if you can call it that using DPP, is to take NR down a low as possible, and switch off all sharpening and then just check and correct exposure then convert and save to TIFF.
Then I process the TIFF in LR. OK, as a short-term kludge to at least see some of what the Camera is capable of, but the ergonomics of waiting for DPP to get things done compared to LR showing alsmost instantaneous results is hard to stomach. I could imagine the internal engines and processing in DPP as being far superior to LR (they should be as the come from Canon), but the UI is very poor.
I love the Camera though, and having all Focus Points with TCs installed is heaven.

Here are a few real-world examples from my 3 days with the camera so far.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/briandorling/with/28663748724/

Cheers Brian
 
Upvote 0
Jack Douglas said:
Brian, serious nice shots there. It's looking promising! :)

Jack
Thanks Jack, it was in fact a windy days causing the stalks that the frogs are sat on to move about, so pretty much hit and miss, so the focus could maybe be improved upon. I have lots of out of focus shots on the card.
Only one shot has any sharpening at all, that was done in PS.
The ergonomics of the Camera are great IMHO.
Cheers Brian
 
Upvote 0
Brian, you point out something that may make my results invalid in some circumstances.

I'd said that in low light the 1DX beat the 5D4, but the 5D4 shots were taken into DPP and converted, and I didn't stop to think that DPP might have ham-handedly modified things, as it ham-handedly does everything else. Crap. I'll have to shoot JPG on all three bodies and load into Lightroom just to see if I need to redo the entire test due to DPP meddling. I have a gut feeling the 5D4 may come out on top after this. Will inform.
 
Upvote 0
DannyPwins said:
BigAntTVProductions said:
ive been putting my new 5D mark 4 thru its paces this week American HS football and New York Fashion Week
here's some sample JPGs
shooting in ISO's 160-too as high as 5000+
9H6A0349-1 by Big Ant TV Media LLC, on Flickr

9H6A0510-1 by Big Ant TV Media LLC, on Flickr

Nice shots. Where are you from in Jersey? I have a feeling I met you at an event a while ago. Small world..

no im not from nor live in NJ
 
Upvote 0
BigAntTVProductions said:
DannyPwins said:
BigAntTVProductions said:
ive been putting my new 5D mark 4 thru its paces this week American HS football and New York Fashion Week
here's some sample JPGs
shooting in ISO's 160-too as high as 5000+
9H6A0349-1 by Big Ant TV Media LLC, on Flickr

9H6A0510-1 by Big Ant TV Media LLC, on Flickr

Nice shots. Where are you from in Jersey? I have a feeling I met you at an event a while ago. Small world..

no im not from nor live in NJ
Great images, very good results
 
Upvote 0
This I do not like:
Its a large JPEG straight out of the Camera, just cropped to keep the file size small. Pretty low light, the stones are properly exposed I think. Focus seems about OK, on the pebbles, but there is no detail whatsoever on the bird. OK, the bird is darker so somewhat underexposed. But there is just no information at all in the dark areas of the bird, just brown mush.
My error? Just not ETTR enough?

Cheers Brian
 

Attachments

  • 362A4592-crop2.JPG
    362A4592-crop2.JPG
    606.3 KB · Views: 263
Upvote 0
bjd said:
This I do not like:
Its a large JPEG straight out of the Camera, just cropped to keep the file size small. Pretty low light, the stones are properly exposed I think. Focus seems about OK, on the pebbles, but there is no detail whatsoever on the bird. OK, the bird is darker so somewhat underexposed. But there is just no information at all in the dark areas of the bird, just brown mush.
My error? Just not ETTR enough?

Cheers Brian
I wonder if this is an in-camera thing concerning how much NR is applied to a L jpg, I haven't changed any such settings, and maybe the default is very aggressive? Couldn't find anything like that.
Cheers Brian
 
Upvote 0
bjd said:
bjd said:
This I do not like:
Its a large JPEG straight out of the Camera, just cropped to keep the file size small. Pretty low light, the stones are properly exposed I think. Focus seems about OK, on the pebbles, but there is no detail whatsoever on the bird. OK, the bird is darker so somewhat underexposed. But there is just no information at all in the dark areas of the bird, just brown mush.
My error? Just not ETTR enough?

Cheers Brian
I wonder if this is an in-camera thing concerning how much NR is applied to a L jpg, I haven't changed any such settings, and maybe the default is very aggressive? Couldn't find anything like that.
Cheers Brian

I don't know if this was meant as a joke or not, but the bird is clearly not sharp because he moved his body too fast for the shutter speed that you were using.
 
Upvote 0
I would say that your camera back focused by approximately 6-10cm. at 400mm, F13 and 5.7m distance to subject thats all the DoF you have available. ( 5cm in front and 5cm behind the subject. ). Camera shake is also likely as another factor..
 
Upvote 0
as ph0t0 points out:

you are shooting at f/13, 1/750s, iso 6400 and the bird is moving so there is motion blur.


at least half of the bird photos you take are going to look like that unless you are shooting a really fast shutter speed. its okay to use a relatively slow shutter speed but you are going to have to take more shots and sort through them.
 
Upvote 0
dilbert said:
candc said:
as ph0t0 points out:

you are shooting at f/13, 1/750s, iso 6400 and the bird is moving so there is motion blur.


at least half of the bird photos you take are going to look like that unless you are shooting a really fast shutter speed. its okay to use a relatively slow shutter speed but you are going to have to take more shots and sort through them.

1/750 should be fast enough for a bird that's not flying.

But in this instance, the camera either hasn't locked onto the bird for focus or the camera plus lens need some TLC courtesy of AFMA.


those little birds are really twitchy. 1/750 or even 1/250 is fine if they are not moving but if they are you need a really fast shutter speed to freeze them.
 
Upvote 0
Ph0t0 said:
bjd said:
bjd said:
This I do not like:
Its a large JPEG straight out of the Camera, just cropped to keep the file size small. Pretty low light, the stones are properly exposed I think. Focus seems about OK, on the pebbles, but there is no detail whatsoever on the bird. OK, the bird is darker so somewhat underexposed. But there is just no information at all in the dark areas of the bird, just brown mush.
My error? Just not ETTR enough?

Cheers Brian
I wonder if this is an in-camera thing concerning how much NR is applied to a L jpg, I haven't changed any such settings, and maybe the default is very aggressive? Couldn't find anything like that.
Cheers Brian

I don't know if this was meant as a joke or not, but the bird is clearly not sharp because he moved his body too fast for the shutter speed that you were using.

To further ask, is this joke or deliberate troll, since the camera does not have 1/750 setting. I have my camera here, after 640 the next is 800.

So was it shot at e.h. 1/250, and he manually fixed the exif to 750, and then wanted to troll/bash how bad the camera is? Or does 1/800 report as 750 for some reason?

And the picture is obviously motion blur. If you shoot birds and don't figure out that from the picture, you should go buy yourself T2i with kit lens. That'll fit the bird pictures better.
 
Upvote 0
tpatana said:
Ph0t0 said:
bjd said:
bjd said:
This I do not like:
Its a large JPEG straight out of the Camera, just cropped to keep the file size small. Pretty low light, the stones are properly exposed I think. Focus seems about OK, on the pebbles, but there is no detail whatsoever on the bird. OK, the bird is darker so somewhat underexposed. But there is just no information at all in the dark areas of the bird, just brown mush.
My error? Just not ETTR enough?

Cheers Brian
I wonder if this is an in-camera thing concerning how much NR is applied to a L jpg, I haven't changed any such settings, and maybe the default is very aggressive? Couldn't find anything like that.
Cheers Brian

I don't know if this was meant as a joke or not, but the bird is clearly not sharp because he moved his body too fast for the shutter speed that you were using.

To further ask, is this joke or deliberate troll, since the camera does not have 1/750 setting. I have my camera here, after 640 the next is 800.

So was it shot at e.h. 1/250, and he manually fixed the exif to 750, and then wanted to troll/bash how bad the camera is? Or does 1/800 report as 750 for some reason?

And the picture is obviously motion blur. If you shoot birds and don't figure out that from the picture, you should go buy yourself T2i with kit lens. That'll fit the bird pictures better.

You can get 1/750 sec, just select 1/2 stop increments for adjustment rather than 1/3 stop increments. It is under custom functions and has been for many years on some models.
 
Upvote 0
For those interested the EXIF is 5D MkIV, 100-400 MkII. 400mm, f13, 1/750 sec, 6400iso. Subject focused at 5.7m.

If bjd did what they said and just cropped to keep the file size down then below is a rescaled image to show the actual crop.
 

Attachments

  • crop1.jpg
    crop1.jpg
    43.4 KB · Views: 1,157
Upvote 0