Is Canon actually going to launch RF-S lenses alongside the Canon EOS R7?

[Loswr]

Talking over and over about M line in inappropriate threads doesn't make it look alive.
If it makes you feel more comfort ... it's not dead, it's just sleeping for a very long time!

No, the fact that it’s the best-selling camera line in Japan and likely globally, and has been for years, is what makes it look alive. What comforts me is knowledge of facts and understanding current reality. Sadly, there are far too many people such as you in the world, who choose to believe their own distorted view of reality, ignoring facts and data.

 

[lote82]

No, the fact that it’s the best-selling camera line in Japan and likely globally, and has been for years, is what makes it look alive. What comforts me is knowledge of facts and understanding current reality. Sadly, there are far too many people such as you in the world, who choose to believe their own distorted view of reality, ignoring facts and data.

But the reality consists of more facts like ...
1. Japan is not the most important sales market
2. There are zero (current) rumors about new cameras or lenses
3. Nikon and Sony have one mount for ff and APS-C. Are they "ignoring facts and data" or just stupid?

The M line had its time, but it's over. You know what M6 II and 90D had in common? Little hint ... not only the sensor!

 

[diegopisante]

Canon did and will do it again, for the experienced photographers that don't make sense but if you are a beginner or do it hobby RF-S is the wai to go like they did with 17-55 2.8 IS to go a little cheaper...what doesn't make sense is they do cheaper RF 2.8 versions for the RF-S system.
As an 18 years Canon user I would love to have only one mount for every system, that would help a lot Canon ecosystem, like EOS-M also be RF.

 

[Loswr]

The trouble is, whilst I realise a lot of camera manufacturers are based in Japan, it is not representative of global sales or success. Nikon and Panasonic don't even feature in the top 10 selling cameras in Japan. Should they just call it quits because they're not big in japan?

Nikon’s global ILC market share is under 15% (down from ~40% several years ago). Panasonic’s has never been over 5%. They’re not ‘big’ globally or in Jaoan Fuji is down there with Panasonic, and they’ve explicitly stated their camera division is not and not expected to be profitable, but they are keeping it active for ‘cultural and historical’ reasons.

And FWIW, The Sony A6400 now tops the charts in Japan

What data are you looking at? BCN is the major aggregator of electronics retail sales in Japan. M2 kits have held the top and the second or third place for the past two weeks and the past two months (with the remaining slot in the top three being taken by a Canon DSLR).

As I have already stated. I am a fan of the M series. But IF (and that's a big IF) an RF-S system was developed along similar lines to EF-S, I can see EF-M being slowly phased out. I highly doubt it will be dropped like a stone as yes, it's a popular system in some territories. But it's an oddball in Canon's line up, an awkward second cousin.

That makes sense right up until your last point. It’s an oddball like the is an oddball in Toyota‘s lineup.

So many people on this forum think it represents the broader market. That’s simply false. The tea leaves here and on other camera forums suggest that the DSLRs is dead. Yet a Canon DSLRs is perennially in the top three on BCN, and DSLRs still represent over 40% of the ILCs being shipped.

 

[Kit.]

but if you are a beginner or do it hobby RF-S is the wai to go

Why not EF-M or Fuji X?

 

[lote82]

Why not EF-M or Fuji X?

one is dead the other bad (because it's not Canon) ;-)

 

[Loswr]

But the reality consists of more facts like ...
1. Japan is not the most important sales market

Actually, the data from BCN on sales in Japan and the globally aggregated market share data track very closely year after year. Japan trends higher in mirrorless adoption.

2. There are zero (current) rumors about new cameras or lenses

So what? As was said earlier:

As usual, someone is mistaking "lack of development" for "about to be killed." It's a mature product line that is selling well.

Rumors are a step further removed. This site in particular has tended to not focus heavily on the M series.

3. Nikon and Sony have one mount for ff and APS-C. Are they "ignoring facts and data" or just stupid?

Canon has nearly 50% of the global ILC market share, Sony has under 25% and Nikon has under 15%. Pretty clear who has taken the more successful approach. Remember that Nikon tried a dedicated crop MILC mount, the Nikon 1 – it was a failure. Canon's dedicated crop MILC mount was a success and remains so today.

The M line had its time, but it's over. You know what M6 II and 90D had in common? Little hint ... not only the sensor!

It's a best-selling camera line. You claim it's time is over.


Reality is hard for some people to grasp. You should really quit while you're behind. But more likely you'll keep posting and making yourself look even more foolish.

 

[vangelismm]

Birds with R on a budget?

We will have to get over with RP II + f/11 primes.

 

[[email protected]]

Going back to basics, you have to ask what are the benefits of crop. When introduced, the biggest was cost of sensors. You could decrease camera component costs by $300 versus full frame in the early days. You could also produce smaller, cheaper lenses of equivalent focal length. This made crop a great budget line choice.

Today, the component cost differences of an equivalent crop sensor versus full frame are in the mid-to-high 10s of dollars. And producing more, smaller, cheaper lenses makes less sense in terms of manufacturing scales today, even discounting the current logistics problems and shortages.

Now, the benefits of crop would be size and weight. I think the M mount cameras have a market that is more about the size and convenience of the cameras than anything else. A set of 5-7 lenses of the M mount size would make for a fine budget/small-size line, but it would be important to Canon that this new line provide and encourage an upgrade path to the R mount. This is what the M mount lacks. That the M mount has been given the Sony A mount treatment in the past couple of years is highly indicative that Canon agrees.

Logic would have Canon eventually release an R-mount equivalent of the M line, but to do so starting well in to 2023, after manufacturing issues have cleared. The line would have 4-5 lines making it a whole system sometime in late 2024. An R7 doesn't really fit into this conceptual picture unless it is purely to stratify pricing.

 

[gregedwards69]

What data are you looking at? BCN is the major aggregator of electronics retail sales in Japan. M2 kits have held the top and the second or third place for the past two weeks and the past two months (with the remaining slot in the top three being taken by a Canon DSLR).

My apologies, I was looking at slightly older data. It was however the annual data for the best selling camera of 2021, not a week on week chart.

The 10 best-selling cameras in Japan: no full frames, no DSLRs, no Nikons!

The 10 best-selling cameras in Japan last year didn't feature a single full-frame model, a single DSLR, nor a single Nikon

www.digitalcameraworld.com

It is interesting to see that BCN's data only accounts for less than half of the Japanese retail market. It's also interesting to see there's only one new camera in the top selling cameras of the year and no DLSRS. You can take from that what you will, but I still maintain that this data should not be used as a barometer for global sales.

That makes sense right up until your last point. It’s an oddball like the is an oddball in Toyota‘s lineup.

So many people on this forum think it represents the broader market. That’s simply false. The tea leaves here and on other camera forums suggest that the DSLRs is dead. Yet a Canon DSLRs is perennially in the top three on BCN, and DSLRs still represent over 40% of the ILCs being shipped.

To be fair, I only joined this forum to comment on this thread. As a member of different forums for other interests as well I'm quite aware that forum membership in no way represents the wider user base. Forum users are not the target audience of global manufacturers, but they do sometimes listen. I love it when manufacturers listen to their user base. Look at the latest M1 Macbook Pros - apple listened and reintroduced HDMI ports and SD card slots.

But on the other hand, innovation isn't just based on current sales numbers. There's an element of future sales projections too. Canon et al will do what they deem necessary to stay relevant and at the top of the sales charts. If that means phasing out EF-M in favour of RF-S, then they will.

 

[[email protected]]

One crackpot theory... Over the course of 2-3 years of R5 and R6 production using its own fab, Canon will have accrued a large number of rejected full frame sensors. A percentage of those will have pixel issues in the area that is outside the crop image circle. Canon could use a portion of those sensors - those that didn't have problems that affected the entire pixel row - in a crop camera, effectively with a free sensor.

I think that would be a pretty cool "re-use" strategy, but doubt they'd do that. Would be very easy to see if they did.

 

[lote82]

Reality is hard for some people to grasp. You should really quit while you're behind. But more likely you'll keep posting and making yourself look even more foolish.

Getting personal while not having arguments doesn't make you look smart!
Time will tell who of us was foolish!

 

[Kit.]

one is dead the other bad (because it's not Canon) ;-)

Irrelevant for APS-C, which is already both "dead" and "bad".

 

[Loswr]

My apologies, I was looking at slightly older data. It was however the annual data for the best selling camera of 2021, not a week on week chart.

The 10 best-selling cameras in Japan: no full frames, no DSLRs, no Nikons!

The 10 best-selling cameras in Japan last year didn't feature a single full-frame model, a single DSLR, nor a single Nikon

www.digitalcameraworld.com

It is interesting to see that BCN's data only accounts for less than half of the Japanese retail market. It's also interesting to see there's only one new camera in the top selling cameras of the year and no DLSRS. You can take from that what you will, but I still maintain that this data should not be used as a barometer for global sales.

The BCN article is entitled, "The top 10 mirrorless interchangeable-lens cameras sold in 2021...," and there are no DLSRs on the list. I'm shocked. Simply shocked. Rather pathetic reporting on the part of Digital Camera World, IMO. BCN's weekly and monthly rankings combine all ILCs, the annual lists and 'awards' separate MILCs and DSLRs.

Since M-series cameras were in the number 2 and 3 slots for 2021, it's quite possible that the combined total surpassed Sony's 1st and 4th place slots. Regardless, the main point I was making is completely supported by both the current data and the data from 2021: the EOS M lineup remains very successful, and claims by those on this forum that the M line is 'dead' or 'dying' are simply asinine.

I agree that BCN's data are not globally applicable. Heck, the best selling MILC in Japan in 2020 was the Olympus OM-D E-M10 Mark III. But taken together with the global market share, and with the global data on ratios of DSLRs:MILCs and APS-C:FF, it can be deduced that the EOS M line is a global best seller.

 

[Loswr]

Getting personal while not having arguments doesn't make you look smart!
Time will tell who of us was foolish!

One of us is posting data and facts. The other is posting opinions that are directly contradicted by those data and facts. The old expression about having a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent applies here.

 

[lote82]

Irrelevant for APS-C, which is already both "dead" and "bad".

If APS-C is "dead" and "bad" why are you talking about APS-C options?

 

[lote82]

One of us is posting data and facts. The other is posting opinions that are directly contradicted by those data and facts. The old expression about having a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent applies here.

Go and check your neurons!

 

[gregedwards69]

The BCN article is entitled, "The top 10 mirrorless interchangeable-lens cameras sold in 2021...," and there are no DLSRs on the list. I'm shocked. Simply shocked. Rather pathetic reporting on the part of Digital Camera World, IMO. BCN's weekly and monthly rankings combine all ILCs, the annual lists and 'awards' separate MILCs and DSLRs.

Since M-series cameras were in the number 2 and 3 slots for 2021, it's quite possible that the combined total surpassed Sony's 1st and 4th place slots. Regardless, the main point I was making is completely supported by both the current data and the data from 2021: the EOS M lineup remains very successful, and claims by those on this forum that the M line is 'dead' or 'dying' are simply asinine.

Ah, sorry, I didn't click through to the source. My fault. It is bad form from DCW as you say. But regardless, I do think EF-M's days are numbered (even if it is healthy and selling well in some territories) IF (and only if) a new RF-S comes to pass as some of us are guessing. I just don't see a place for EF-M in Canon's future line-up a similarly priced consumer-targeted RF-S platform is released and is immediately successful and exceeds expectations. (remember, it took a few generations to get the M series to be competitive and they were late to the party).

This is purely conjecture based upon rumour, historical behaviour and interpretation of facts, as is the entirety of this thread, including mine and your comments.

 

[Loswr]

Ah, sorry, I didn't click through to the source. My fault. It is bad form from DCW as you say. But regardless, I do think EF-M's days are numbered (even if it is healthy and selling well in some territories) IF (and only if) a new RF-S comes to pass as some of us are guessing. I just don't see a place for EF-M in Canon's future line-up a similarly priced consumer-targeted RF-S platform is released and is immediately successful and exceeds expectations. (remember, it took a few generations to get the M series to be competitive and they were late to the party).

This is purely conjecture based upon rumour, historical behaviour and interpretation of facts, as is the entirety of this thread, including mine and your comments.

Definitely agree. But as you said initially, a set of RF-S lenses and a set of small, APS-C bodies to match, in a price range similar to the current EOS M line, is a big IF. After all, what you're describing is basically an RF version of the EOS M line – low price, small bodies with APS-C sensors, and small lenses to match.

Looking back, Canon has ample sales data on how many and what type of DSLR users moved from APS-C to FF and how they did that. They could have chosen to make that path easier for MILCs, e.g. a slightly longer flange focal distance for the RF mount would have enabled an RF-M adapter and use of RF lenses on M bodies. Canon, with the data from DSLRs in hand, chose to separate the M and R lines completely. Sure, they could reverse that decision by effectively converting the M line to an APS-C R line. I don't think that makes any sense, but we'll see.

 

[tron]

I bet telephoto focal lengths with a smaller image circle could be sold much cheaper, so that would definitely make sense.

You bet wrong! The front element would have the same size (Focal Length divided by f-number) so the difference would be negligible.