Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?

[3kramd5]

Being a guy with a pure Canon kit that probably tops $25,000 in total personal cost...that's very frustrating. Now, instead of just being able to pick up a new Canon body with ergonomics and functionality I already know how to use without even thinking about it, I have to expand my kit. That involves even more cost, a new set of lenses that largely duplicate what I have, learning a whole new camera system, etc. I like simplicity...one brand, one set of lenses, one type of button placement and menu system. It just sucks.

The alternative though is there being no difference between the brands, ergo no competition. If you could grab a Canon 5Dxyz that equals a Nikon Dzxy, why would there be a Canon and a Nikon?

 

[Jack Douglas]

Jon, I think it is pointless to allow yourself to get caught up in that degree of dissatisfaction considering the great gear that you've got. It seems to me there is a little of "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence" syndrome here. You can have or already do have killer photos with the gear you presently own and so my advice is to just shift away from the technical to the artistic for now, have fun.

When you worry your face will frown and that will bring everybody down - don't worry, be happy.

Jack

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

When the 70D came out the Canon world was shocked with DPAF. That was July 2013.... DSLR launches since then - zero.

Something is coming..... and not "more of the same"....

If all the 7D2 is, is a 70D with slightly better specs, the same sensor, and a better autofocus system, it would have been out by now. Something is coming that required changing the underlying technology....

I think DPAF was the tip of the iceberg and we are in for a surprise.

I think it might be more along the lines of a super-souped up DPAF that assists phase AF and allows for nearly 100% in focus rates more than improved image quality (aside from the in focus aspect), but who knows. I fit is 20.2 MP that seems to hit more towards this, but maybe the specs are wrong, so far they have all been wrong.

 

[c.d.embrey]

The REAL QUESTION is how many generation is Canon behind Sony, Olympus and Panasonic ???

The photographic world is rapidly changing. Now Video is a BFD with many photographers (and has been for several years). And ALL professional video cameras use EVFs. Even Canon has EVFs on the C100, C300 and C500. So why no EVF on the 7D2 ???

You may want to view this video The Mirrorless Revolution and learn why Michael Reichman has sold all his DSLRs http://luminous-landscape.com/whatsnew/#1129

 

[D.]

Don Haines, I hope you are right, if only to put the seemingly endless DR discussions to rest. I don’t post much; however, I appreciate CR as a source of valuable photographic information on technique, filters, camera bags, lens, etc. As the (low ISO) DR topic is one that has been covered hundreds (thousands) of times on internet forums since the release of the 5DIII and D800, there is really nothing left unsaid on the matter. Whenever a new DR discussion comes up, the same comments are rehashed over and over. Therefore, with regard to new CR members who only want to discuss DR, I can only conclude that such posters only real motivation is to generate discontent. I don’t pretend to understand what motivates people to engage in such behavior – I feel sorry for them.

No system is perfect. I am happy with my 5DIII despite what others may say regarding its DR. I don’t sweat the small stuff. That’s my view but I am not going to go on endlessly about it. In fact, this is all I have to say on the subject.

 

[dtaylor]

When a Camera is not able to differentiate noise from detail in the lower 3rd of the tonal range, then no test is going to make it shine.

This is not an accurate evaluation or statement. If the noise were that bad you wouldn't have been able to push the Canon RAW 3 stops at all.

I give up trying to apply logic in the face of such statements.

You're not applying logic. Your understanding of this is simply not correct therefore your attempt to "convert" what you see on the screen into a "percentage of lost tones" is nonsense.

The DR of the SCENE is minimal, a point and shoot would see it all, given the there is no black OR white in the whole photo.

You have no clue what the DR of the scene was because you didn't include a step wedge nor document a series of spot meter readings. Which is why your statement above is nonsense.

 

[x-vision]

If all the 7D2 is, is a 70D with slightly better specs, the same sensor, and a better autofocus system, it would have been out by now. Something is coming that required changing the underlying technology....

I hope you are right.

For example, the 7D2.... the sensor design for the pixels may well be the same design as the 70D, but if this rendition of the chip has the A/D moved over too, we could see a significant performance increase...

That's exactly what I'm hoping for.

If Canon moves A/D on the sensor, we can expect 1-2 stops better DR and maybe half a stop better ISO vs the 70D.
With these improvements, the 7DII image quality will be the same/better as on the 1DIV.
That would be pretty solid (and arguably the best they can achieve with a 1.6x crop sensor today).

Let's see if Canon will do it.
Because they might as well just reuse the 70D sensor, which will not be out of character for them ... unfortunately.

 

[dtaylor]

I usually print 13x19" at home, and I usually do spend quite a lot of time working the shadows to get them to print nicely.

Trimming most of your post because...how on Earth do you even find time to write that much? And that's coming from someone who writes too much on forums!

All I can say is that I only rarely encounter the issues you are complaining about. And I'm usually not using GND filters or a large number of HDR shots, but manually blending two frames.

For a scene requiring HDR I'm guessing that your shadow exposures are not bright enough. I'm also guessing that you are trying to shoot some scenes in one shot when you should have at least two. Your river shot with the blown out sky...I would shoot that as two frames on Canon or Nikon.

I can only guess because I've never been out shooting with you to observe what you're doing. But you talk as if every landscape you do has horrendous shadow noise. If that's happening then you need to adjust your shooting and processing.

You've built up in your mind how much better an Exmor sensor would be, how it would revolutionize your workflow. It's better, but it's not going to revolutionize your workflow or eliminate HDR/GND. That doesn't mean you shouldn't buy a D810 or a Sony A7 series if you want one. Just don't build up Exmor so high in your mind that you buy one and end up complaining on their boards.

So...when it comes to large size images...either something like a 1920x1200 size published online (which I've done a few times for 1x.com...they have a very large format presentation), or larger prints (not sure where the cutoff is, I usually print 13x19), then yes. I HONESTLY do believe that the 5D III suffers from it's shadow noise.

I print a lot at 16x20/24. My albums that I show to family and friends have sleeves for Epson 17x22 sheets so I don't have to cut rolls or trim while filling those. I don't struggle at those sizes...or even larger when I have occasion to print larger. I can literally think of two shots where I did not have a frame with sufficient shadow exposure and was bummed about the noise/tonality/detail in the deep shadows. Of the two, other people have only noticed one.

 

[dtaylor]

So why no EVF on the 7D2 ???

Because EVF still sucks for action and sports.

 

[weixing]

Hi,

The REAL QUESTION is how many generation is Canon behind Sony, Olympus and Panasonic ???

The photographic world is rapidly changing. Now Video is a BFD with many photographers (and has been for several years). And ALL professional video cameras use EVFs. Even Canon has EVFs on the C100, C300 and C500. So why no EVF on the 7D2 ???

You may want to view this video The Mirrorless Revolution and learn why Michael Reichman has sold all his DSLRs http://luminous-landscape.com/whatsnew/#1129

Err... I thought all video cameras are mirrorless not just professional ones... didn't see any consumer video camera come with a mirror... ha ha ha

Anyway, 7D2 is supposed to be a sport/wildlife DSLR which IMHO, is not suitable to use a mirrorless design basically due to the power consumption. Not sure about sport photographer, but wildlife photographer use the viewfinder a lot even not shooting as the super telephoto lens can be use as a scope to search for your subjects. If it use an EVF, power will use up very fast and sensor will become very hot after long use... image quality will not be good when sensor become hot.

Have a nice day.

 

[mb66energy]

So why no EVF on the 7D2 ???

Because EVF still sucks for action and sports.

Might be, but not for action and sports MOVIES ...

I think we have to open our minds in terms of viewfinder type too: There is not always and
"Alternative One" OR "Alternative Two" but an AND between them.

I expect(ed) the 7D tsuccessor to be a very flexible camera which satisfies a broad range of needs. I just think about photojournalists who need two bodies for two lenses and both, still shooting and movie shooting in moderately compact packages without external "gadgets".

Think about a combined OVF - EVF constructions (wasn't there a patent? SEARCH: http://www.photographybay.com/2010/01/25/canon-dslr-dual-image-viewfinder/) or a configurable automatic switch between OVF while shooting and EVF during movie mode ...

 

[Skulker]

Don Haines, I'm with you. I'd much rather spend my hours having positive thoughts. .......People can be very fickle. Now I hear complaints that a Canon camera may not have WiFi. When I was researching, everyone was cursing the 6D because it had this useless WiFi and GPS and the on-off switch was over on the left. So, what more can I say. Jack

I agree with Jack and Don. But some people do appear to want to be fickle. And here comes jrista ;D

I agree that people find dumb little things to complain about with every camera. [got to agree with you on that J - 8) ] ....... For me, I've literally been waiting for Canon to really improve their IQ since I first got into photography. I'd researched and new all the technical tidbits before I got the 450D. [glad to hear you knew it all J, I was beginning to think perhaps you didn't know half as much as you think you know :-[ ]......... and that was when I really started hoping Canon would have competitive DR in the 5D III...it never happened.[How do you think other people manage to take stunning images with the 5D iii? Do you think they don't know as much as you? Do you think they are satisfied with sub standard images and you just have MUCH higher standards? Do you think maybe they are just better at using the camera than you? : ]

I'm sorry if I'm venting frustrations, but I'm frustrated. I've been waiting for Canon to fix their noise problems for YEARS. Since, what, 2008? It's topped six and a half years now. How long does a guy have to wait, and keep his mouth shut? [when are you going to try keeping your mouth shut? ] ....... Being a guy with a pure Canon kit that probably tops $25,000 in total personal cost...that's very frustrating. ............. It just sucks.

I tell you what really sucks J. Someone who knew it all years ago spending $25,000 on kit that he is not happy with. I know one thing J, if I had been unhappy with a camera system for over 6 years firstly I would NOT have spent $25,000 on it secondly I would have have changed system a long time ago.


The reality of it is that Canon and Nikon both make superb cameras and lenses. Each has their strong points each has their weaknesses. And many people will have different opinions, criteria and priorities. At the point of buying you make a choice.


J - for someone who seems to like to think they know "all the technical tidbits" your posts are rather emotional rather than logical.

 

[adhocphotographer]

No

 

[mb66energy]

Being a guy with a pure Canon kit that probably tops $25,000 in total personal cost...that's very frustrating. Now, instead of just being able to pick up a new Canon body with ergonomics and functionality I already know how to use without even thinking about it, I have to expand my kit. That involves even more cost, a new set of lenses that largely duplicate what I have, learning a whole new camera system, etc. I like simplicity...one brand, one set of lenses, one type of button placement and menu system. It just sucks.

I really do understand what you feel. I have upgraded from 20D to 40D because the release button of the 20D stopped working properly. I haven't seen a large improvement of IQ between both. 600D bought to shoot movies - primarily to produce material for teaching physics and mathematics. I wanted to use macro and stronger tele capabilies and the flexibility of manual exposure. Again: Only minor improvements of photographic IQ. So I am still waiting to invest in a high end camera like 7Ds(uccessor) or 6D which are in reach financially.

Just wait (if you can) another round and Canon will come closer to Nikon ...

Another thing I never tried because my bodies aren't capable but your 5Diii seems to be capable of: Multiexposure. I found a hint that it reduces noise (what it has to do in theory) under the following link:
http://diglloyd.com/articles/LensAndCameraIssues/NoiseAndMultipleExposures.html
If you do landscape with a tripod it might be a solution for non-moving stuff ... ?

Best - Michael

 

[FEBS]

So why no EVF on the 7D2 ???

Because EVF still sucks for action and sports.

+1

It will always be to late in the action.

 

[sagittariansrock]

So why no EVF on the 7D2 ???

Because EVF still sucks for action and sports.

+1

It will always be to late in the action.

Even (if and) when EVF becomes fast enough, wouldn't it be sort of mutually exclusive with a single lens reflex system?

 

[mb66energy]

So why no EVF on the 7D2 ???

Because EVF still sucks for action and sports.

+1

It will always be to late in the action.

Even (if and) when EVF becomes fast enough, wouldn't it be sort of mutually exclusive with a single lens reflex system?

IMO it depends on the resolution and the color accuracy of an EVF to replace "real" view finders. As stated above I would like to have both options user selectable in ONE camera.

Some forget that 7Ds(uccessor) might adress the market for photo&video journalists who need (again IMO) ONE versatile tool without fiddeling around with external view finders or other accessories.

 

[Ivar]

Well the thing is he didn't know the direction of Canon developments.

How would that even had been possible to know?

After all, it is for sure at some point "even" Canon extends DR - and that is not because of "whiners" but because it is part of sensor IQ. Would be utterly absurd to think Canon itself don't know this - they optimize the way they think it is most profitable for shareholders and they haven't been wrong this far.

I tell you what really sucks J. Someone who knew it all years ago spending $25,000 on kit that he is not happy with. I know one thing J, if I had been unhappy with a camera system for over 6 years firstly I would NOT have spent $25,000 on it secondly I would have have changed system a long time ago.

The reality of it is that Canon and Nikon both make superb cameras and lenses. Each has their strong points each has their weaknesses. And many people will have different opinions, criteria and priorities. At the point of buying you make a choice.

J - for someone who seems to like to think they know "all the technical tidbits" your posts are rather emotional rather than logical. [/font]

 

[Steve]

Because EVF still sucks for action and sports.

Have you tried an X-T1, A77II or a6000? Modern EVF's are completely capable of keeping up with action, no problem.

 

[dtaylor]

Because EVF still sucks for action and sports.

Have you tried an X-T1, A77II or a6000? Modern EVF's are completely capable of keeping up with action, no problem.

I don't think any of them are as good for action. And believe me, I want to see EVFs take over because they are far better for judging exposure and white balance and they're better for MF lenses (unless you have a custom focusing screen). But I just don't think they're there yet, and I imagine at least the next generation of sports cams (7D2; 1DX mkII) will need OVFs.