Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?

[David Hull]

29 pages now...

My hobby is speaker building and on some audio websites, it's not unusual for threads to be 1000+ pages long. And there we're often debating sound quality characteristics differences that are highly subjective, can't be measured, and most people don't even believe exist. At least sensor performance can be measured.

Yes but the measurements mean about the same as they do with speakers. Most people don't measure them, they listen to them.

 

[Aglet]

..The 6D performs remarkably better at high ISO...and statistically given it's read noise levels, it should perform similarly at low ISO (I don't know if there are any low ISO comparisons between those two cameras...everyone focuses on the high ISO differences.) So, my reasoning is logical. I've been WAITING a long time for Canon to fix their banding issues...and the camera I have in hand right now is the 5D III.

I did my little dark noise test on the 6D... but did not buy one. So that'll give you a clue.
Altho slightly better, with reduced low iso banding, it still has vertical banding a'la 5d2/3.
It's much better than (my) 5d2, somewhat better than 5d3, but still not good enough for me to consider dropping a wad on it just to back Canon tilt-shift lenses at this time.

I don't think I published the test, other than a text description of it on here, somewhere, shortly after the 6D became available. If I remember correctly, 100 and 200 iso were slightly less FPN, 400 was not much difference, don't remember how it fared after that but I did pronounce it as being the best IQ contemporary, FF, Canon body.

 

[PicaPica]

canon vs. nikon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jva08HY6uLE

T. Northrup wants to switch to nikon but can’t fully.

ps: i did not watch it i just read some of the comments.
but i though some here are maybe interested.

and it sure will keep the fire warm for a while.

I am a professional still shooter, so I go with what works best. Canon sensors are so far behind the D810 now that a few lenses at certain price points do not make for the winning system. Nikon is also being more aggressive as of late in sealing holes in the lens lineups over Canon. Also missing is the serious fact that Nikon's flash system is a lot nicer. At lower budgets picking what feels better is more important than anything else, but if you're serious about shooting Canon has a lot of sensor work to do before they can be taken seriously against the D810/D4s combo or D810/Df combo.

I raved about the Nikon image quality and recommended it for everything in the medium focal range. The D810 slaughtered the 5D Mark III in our review. We totally agree about all of this.

 

[ChristopherMarkPerez]

Why am I left with the feeling that people use these kinds of "discussions" as a cover for not having to produce amazing images? OK. So maybe I'm old and cranky.

Still.

Don't you think that if one company was clearly better than another, don't you think that walking up to a print or turning a page in a magazine where you'd be able to _clearly_ tell the difference between one imaging system and another, that we'd ALL be piling on?

 

[dtaylor]

It's problematic with the A7 due to camera shake from the shutter. It lacks an electronic first curtain, and long focal lengths exacerbate the problem for obvious reasons.

The A7 does have EFC, and shutter shake issues with the A7R are greatly exaggerated.

Besides, are we now shooting HDR landscapes with a 600mm in the narrow shutter speed range that might cause a problem? :

 

[dtaylor]

29 pages now...

Any body actually making prints that can demonstrate the "obsolescence" of Canon?
I can agree that on screen various bodies will show some differences but I have not seen prints from anyone where I could say "Ahhh, clearly this fellow used a (insert favorite hot camera here).

;D

Nope. 29 pages and not one single example of a real world photo under real world exposure conditions where the difference would matter in a large print.

 

[dtaylor]

Have you shot a step wedge and tried to use NR to make black and white steps gray yet?

No?

Please go try ;D

I wouldn't consider that valid. Applying noise reduction means your injecting an arbitrary SOFTWARE factor into the process. If you measure after NR, then your not measuring the camera. Your measuring the camera plus what the software does to the camera's output.

LOL! JRISTA! The whole POINT is that no amount of NR will change the total DR! NR before Imatest will impact the "quality" measurements, just like it affects exposure latitude. But not total.

You are right that sensor+NR is not a sensor test but a system or "best possible" test. Though in practical terms I think this is just as important because we do not process with zero NR. When Fred Miranda or...worse...infomercial captain Tony Northrup...compare the two with no NR, but fail to show the example with some NR, it is very misleading as to what one's real world results will be. But if you want to know what sensor shadow noise is like, you can't apply NR before hand.

But total DR...which includes tones you can distinguish even though they might have noise...tones which are likely OK if you do not push shadows...is not going to be affected by NR.

You mind sharing one of your unmodified RAW 41-step wedge shots? I'd like to experiment with it before I buy one, see what I come up with.

Actually I do. At this point I seriously want you to buy one and play with it. Not to be a jerk, but I think you will enjoy and learn. (I don't have a 5D3 shot any way. Though in the near future I might go ahead and shoot every relevant camera I can get my hands on and post all of them.)

It won't change your opinion on Exmor vs Canon in the real world, you'll have to rent a D800 or A7 for that. To be clear, they are better. There are times when you can get away with one Exmor frame where you would want two Canon frames. Or for those who manually blend, leave one frame off the blend (i.e. 2 for Exmor vs. 3 for Canon). It does happen. But ultimately you are usually doing the same things on Exmor as on Canon to manage wide luminance scenes, the end result being some minor shadow differences no one will notice in print.

I wouldn't blame you for wanting that advantage and buying an Exmor body. I don't blame you for wanting Canon to change their ADC architecture. I just don't think the difference is nearly as great as you believe.

Hand me a Canon, or a Nikon, or a Sony, and tell me I need to photograph a sunset landscape or an interior with windows showing the outside world. I will accomplish it and produce a high quality print regardless of the camera.

 

[Loswr]

Also missing is the serious fact that Nikon's flash system is a lot nicer.

Yep, there's an unbiased guy who really knows what he's talking about. To be fair, the 600EX-RT has only been out for a couple years, so maybe he's just not keeping up.

 

[PicaPica]

Hand me a Canon, or a Nikon, or a Sony, and tell me I need to photograph a sunset landscape or an interior with windows showing the outside world. I will accomplish it and produce a high quality print regardless of the camera.

bravo!!

 

[dtaylor]

The total range. Stepchart is extremely sensitive at detecting a camera’s total dynamic range, even when dark areas are extremely noisy or boundaries between chart zones become indistinct. This number is usually not a good measure of camera performance.

I appreciate that IR has a large database of Imatest step wedge tests to reference, but that does not imply agreement with everything they might say or every subjective evaluation they might make.

"Camera performance" is subjective. Total DR is not. What is "unacceptable shadow noise" while pixel peeping at 200% on a bright monitor (or analyzing with software) may be "minor and inconsequential" in a 36" print and "invisible" in a 24" one. What is "high quality" DR under one set of processing and viewing conditions might be "invisible difference" under another. You look at the FM example with NR applied and see a large difference where I see something that no one could detect in a 24" print.

And...I will add...every single attempt at a real world side by side test we have seen supports my use of "photographic DR." Both Fred Miranda's example and the Coke box example show nearly the same DR for both cameras. The difference is in the shadow noise which only becomes apparent when you push the shadows 3+ stops. The tones are there, you just can't lift them up as far with the Canon due to the noise. The difference is therefore in exposure latitude, not dynamic range. (Although, again, Exmor usually does have a bit more DR as well.)

You are running to subjective, interpretive definitions to cling to your point rather then observing actual evidence. That's why we keep butting heads. You talk and read and talk and read...and talk and talk and talk...but never observe. You're in the mode of defending a position rather then questioning and expanding it.

 

[dtaylor]

It's interesting that you still don't understand the difference between total dynamic range and dynamic range to arbitrarily selected noise thresholds.

I do. How does that change when they directly said that the Canon was a good 2 stops behind and not up to the standards of other current sensors?

Obviously you do not. Read my last post to jrista to find the answer to your question.

And of course ACR hasn't changed from release to release or how it treats camera to camera, nope, nobody ahs ever noticed any changes there....

Once again: NR does not change total DR. You want an objective measurement? It's total DR. You want a subjective "quality" assessment? Might as well shoot it yourself because this changes from scene to scene, view size to view size, and person to person.

Umm, no, they are measuring system DR, they don't measure the best the photosites can do and de-couple the sensor from the camera's downstream ADC and such,

They are looking at sensel SNR (which naturally involves the entire chain to the RAW file being written) and "predicting" DR from that. Don't know how else to tell you the sky is blue.

 

[PicaPica]

Don't you think that if one company was clearly better than another, don't you think that walking up to a print or turning a page in a magazine where you'd be able to _clearly_ tell the difference between one imaging system and another, that we'd ALL be piling on?

the most interesting and stunning photos i have seen the last two weeks are from 2 woman who don´t care about sensor technology, DR and co.

all this novels about DR... think what you could achieve in that time.

 

[tss68nl]

the most interesting and stunning photos i have seen the last two weeks are from 2 woman who don´t care about sensor technology, DR and co.

all this novels about DR... think what you could achieve in that time.

I really can't believe people are still debating this, but yet today I checked the front page and sure enough this topic was on it again. ???

Maybe it's time to start a "Pointless discussions about Nikon vs Canon" subforum, with maybe a "Pointless discussions about DR" spinoff category and some more. If a discussion about Canon vs Nikon then gets out of control and ends in a DR discussion, maybe we could have a comittee of nitpickers that will debate in "Pointless discussions about thread content", wether the specific thread should be moved, split or blocked altogether.

It's probably best to have these forums packed together in one category that is filtered from the front-page so innocent readers are not tempted ;D

 

[Mitch.Conner]

Why has this made it to page 30?

 

[unfocused]

Why has this made it to page 30?

Because there is an extremely high correlation between Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and frequency of internet postings.

 

[Don Haines]

Why has this made it to page 30?

Because there is an extremely high correlation between Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and frequency of internet postings.

Take some OCD, coupled with a matter of life and death, plus a lack of humour.... throw in some raging testosterone and keep the whole mixture simmering over a troll baited flame.... Add DR for seasoning.... and you get enough posts to choke the server.

 

[Sporgon]

canon vs. nikon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jva08HY6uLE

T. Northrup wants to switch to nikon but can’t fully.

ps: i did not watch it i just read some of the comments.
but i though some here are maybe interested.

and it sure will keep the fire warm for a while.

I am a professional still shooter, so I go with what works best. Canon sensors are so far behind the D810 now that a few lenses at certain price points do not make for the winning system. Nikon is also being more aggressive as of late in sealing holes in the lens lineups over Canon. Also missing is the serious fact that Nikon's flash system is a lot nicer. At lower budgets picking what feels better is more important than anything else, but if you're serious about shooting Canon has a lot of sensor work to do before they can be taken seriously against the D810/D4s combo or D810/Df combo.

I raved about the Nikon image quality and recommended it for everything in the medium focal range. The D810 slaughtered the 5D Mark III in our review. We totally agree about all of this.

This guy is so nauseating that I'm actually real glad he's knocking the Canon. He'd be a real Jonah on the Canon team.
I too haven't the patience to watch this one, and that's despite his attractive wife / partner or whatever she is.
I would just add in case she happens to read CR, if she wants to be shown how to use a canon properly I'm happy to oblige.

 

[Famateur]

Why has this made it to page 30?

Because there is an extremely high correlation between Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and frequency of internet postings.

Take some OCD, coupled with a matter of life and death, plus a lack of humour.... throw in some raging testosterone and keep the whole mixture simmering over a troll baited flame.... Add DR for seasoning.... and you get enough posts to choke the server.

Don Haines
Posts: 3084

And of those 3,084 posts, 3,083 have been cheerful, humorous, positive, constructive and/or peace-making. I'd say 3,084 were that way, but hey -- nobody's perfect.

 

[jrista]

Have you shot a step wedge and tried to use NR to make black and white steps gray yet?

No?

Please go try ;D

I wouldn't consider that valid. Applying noise reduction means your injecting an arbitrary SOFTWARE factor into the process. If you measure after NR, then your not measuring the camera. Your measuring the camera plus what the software does to the camera's output.

LOL! JRISTA! The whole POINT is that no amount of NR will change the total DR! NR before Imatest will impact the "quality" measurements, just like it affects exposure latitude. But not total.

Which, IMO, effectively makes the whole "total DR" measurement pointless. It doesn't tell you anything about the noise characteristics of the CAMERA. Subjective test results, those with NR applied, still don't tell you anything, because they only apply to the circumstances within which the test case was run...they don't actually apply to Joe Schmoe over here editing his photos in Program A, nor to Betty Photographer over there editing her photos in Program B.

The only objective test of CAMERA DYNAMIC RANGE is one which measures from the RMS RN floor to the saturation point. It's the only consistent, easily measurable, and ultimately comparable measurement of dynamic range. It's what the entire industry that manufactures sensors uses, it's what most reviewers use.

Anyway...there isn't any further point to this debate. I'm out.

 

[Don Haines]

Why has this made it to page 30?

Because there is an extremely high correlation between Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and frequency of internet postings.

Take some OCD, coupled with a matter of life and death, plus a lack of humour.... throw in some raging testosterone and keep the whole mixture simmering over a troll baited flame.... Add DR for seasoning.... and you get enough posts to choke the server.

Don Haines
Posts: 3084

And of those 3,084 posts, 3,083 have been cheerful, humorous, positive, constructive and/or peace-making. I'd say 3,084 were that way, but hey -- nobody's perfect.

I was going to ask Mitch if he is experiencing Deja Moo... (The feeling that you have seen this bull before)