Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?

[Daniel 78d]

D800 -> D810

The 5dm3 is looking really old.

You have officially made it to the wrong site

Ok this topic has (officially) went the wrong way. I am very sorry for writing my above post, I thought I was just chiming in but it just added fuel to an already too big fire. I forgive the guy who started this topic to begin with and not to sound like Reginald Denny but let's all get back to the thing we all love, (photography)

 

[9VIII]

5DIII can do 132MP/sec
D810 can do 180MP/sec

D4s can do 176 MP/sec
1D X can do 252 MP/sec

Did you have a point?

Even KR got that one right (complained about the D800, D600, and D4 all having the same processing power).

IMO this thread could have just as easily been named "did Nikon finally catch up?"

The D810 is a very attractive camera, there was never any doubt of that, and that's probably all that needs to be said.

 

[Mitch.Conner]

Ok this topic has (officially) went the wrong way. I am very sorry for writing my above post, I thought I was just chiming in but it just added fuel to an already too big fire. I forgive the guy who started this topic to begin with and not to sound like Reginald Denny but let's all get back to the thing we all love, (photography)

+1

 

[msm]

So to sum up this thread: my camera > your camera.

 

[ooF Fighters]

I'd like to share a conversation that I recently had with a Nikon shooter.

The exchange took place on an airport shuttle bus so it was very brief. As I took an unoccupied seat across from a man and settled in with my Canon backpack on my lap, he took notice and said "Canon man huh?"
I explained that it wasn't out of a particular loyalty but that I had gone from an X700 to a digital rebel and had never changed brands since.
He then said that he was a Nikon shooter and was thinking of switching to Canon. I assumed he must be a sports photographer because from what I have read on this forum it seems that that is where Canons strengths are. But when I asked, he said that he was in fact a professional wedding photographer.
I mentioned the glowing reviews of the new 810 with the shadow detail and skin colors etc. and asked him of his reason for considering the jump to Canon.
His reply... "Canon shooters just seem happier".

 

[mkabi]

I'd like to share a conversation that I recently had with a Nikon shooter.

The exchange took place on an airport shuttle bus so it was very brief. As I took an unoccupied seat across from a man and settled in with my Canon backpack on my lap, he took notice and said "Canon man huh?"
I explained that it wasn't out of a particular loyalty but that I had gone from an X700 to a digital rebel and had never changed brands since.
He then said that he was a Nikon shooter and was thinking of switching to Canon. I assumed he must be a sports photographer because from what I have read on this forum it seems that that is where Canons strengths are. But when I asked, he said that he was in fact a professional wedding photographer.
I mentioned the glowing reviews of the new 810 with the shadow detail and skin colors etc. and asked him of his reason for considering the jump to Canon.
His reply... "Canon shooters just seem happier".

lol... you must be a sour apple if you're going from Canon Forum to Canon Forum, boasting about Nikon products

 

[Sporgon]

I'd like to share a conversation that I recently had with a Nikon shooter.

The exchange took place on an airport shuttle bus so it was very brief. As I took an unoccupied seat across from a man and settled in with my Canon backpack on my lap, he took notice and said "Canon man huh?"
I explained that it wasn't out of a particular loyalty but that I had gone from an X700 to a digital rebel and had never changed brands since.
He then said that he was a Nikon shooter and was thinking of switching to Canon. I assumed he must be a sports photographer because from what I have read on this forum it seems that that is where Canons strengths are. But when I asked, he said that he was in fact a professional wedding photographer.
I mentioned the glowing reviews of the new 810 with the shadow detail and skin colors etc. and asked him of his reason for considering the jump to Canon.
His reply... "Canon shooters just seem happier".

;D ;D

Don't tell dilbert

 

[Loswr]

lol... you must be a sour apple if you're going from Canon Forum to Canon Forum, boasting about Nikon products

Indeed...it says a lot about someone's personality to engage in that sort of behavior, especially if they bring their belligerent attitude with them. If you ignore them, sometimes they go away...and sometimes they seem to obsess, following you from thread to thread and/or sending you profane, insulting private messages. Just sad.

 

[jakeymate]

"Canon shooters just seem happier".

So do Christians but that won't make an atheist suddenly believe in an invisible friend will it

This post is my effort to try and take this in a more positive direction of what Canon users would like to see, rather than the us vs them mentally which helps no one.

Maybe a better topic question would be this.

How would you feel if Canon announced three new FF cams at Photokina, and announced that they were stopping CMOS development and using those funds for other camera technologies?

Why spend so much money digging coal out of the ground when someone else can do it cheaper? Use their coal and spend your time doing something else, not duplicating technologies.

Let's call them the 5Dx, 4Dx and 2Dx with the following specs (all alloy DSLR mk3 style bodies, with the mirror less been a bit smaller for video (Gh4 size to make life easier for gimbals and mounting on cars etc)


5Dx - 12 meg Sony Exmor (from the A7s) 4k video to pro res and h264, mirror less with all the low light advantages of that sensor.

4Dx - 24 meg Exmor sensor from the D600, all current features of the Mk3, but with an all cross point focus system, with 8fps in FF.

Can't have a 3Dx, that just sounds silly

2Dx - 36 meg Exmor sensor (D810), all current features of the Mk3, but with an all cross point focus system, 5fps in FF, crop modes including 1.2, APC, 5:4.

And then the new 1DX gets 14fps in RAW, an Exmor sensor, and all cross point focus.

Would, you be happy with that announcement or not?

I'd be ecstatic personally.

Would you prefer Canon to stay with their own sensors?

 

[jakeymate]

Indeed...it says a lot about someone's personality to engage in that sort of behavior, especially if they bring their belligerent attitude with them. If you ignore them, sometimes they go away...and sometimes they seem to obsess, following you from thread to thread and/or sending you profane, insulting private messages. Just sad.

It says a lot about you John, that after I left, you mentioned me multiple times, using sarcastic references each time.

If you hadn't, I wouldn't have returned to take you to task over it. I was more than happy to let things lie after our first encounter, so why you felt it necessary to mock me in my absence, I do not know.

Don't try and take the high road after you did that.

 

[DominoDude]

*comes in with a shovel and cleans up the mess that once was a horse*

 

[Loswr]

*comes in with a shovel and cleans up the mess that once was a horse*

Yes, it seems a shovel is needed in most threads where the DRones come to beat their deceased equine to a pulp. Looked like the mods mucked out this particular stall earlier today, hopefully it won't become necessary again.

 

[OneTrueKing]

I'm not a brand loyalist but Nikon has had some serious issues with all of the models that have be bumped (600, 800, D4) in some way or another. Each of these required a fix so instead of fixing them they updated them.

I know Nikon shooters who have changed to either Sony, Canon, or even Fuji because of various issues.

This says a lot of Canon cameras in not feeling the need to follow Nikon with bumps, which are what those all were. Also even if the bumped Nikons were better, well, I kind of expect them to be; considering they're newer in some way.

Nikon unfortunately or fortunately depending on your views, didn't include QXD in any of the newer bodies (610/810) nor did they do a dual slot QXD for the D4s which is telling. Also you know it's crazy when people are getting hyped for the D750, again which I expect to be better on paper than 5D3.

Lastly, the 5D3 is still selling good so there's no reason to rush any upgrade. I look forward to seeing what Canon really brings to the table when it's time to upgrade the 5D3.

Competition is a good thing!

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

How much is Canon paying you to suffer and defend the brand? If the threads bug you, don't read them. Better yet, go out and take some shots. As far as I can tell, the D810 is a Nikon-version of the 5D3, but with a substantially better sensor. It's natural that people want more oomph out of their cameras and its natural for them to look at competing brands for validation of their choices. Seriously, go out and take shots.

How about you don't wade in, missing the point by a country mile with worn-out, rote, flamebait clichés?

The folk here who "defend" (which, incidentally, is an immature, immotive characterisation of what's really going on here) Canon, do so:

Because they don't appreciate lies, half-truths and irrelevances presented as "facts" - much less as show-stopping, catastrophic failures by Canon.

Because they know, from their own use of Canon equipment, that it can achieve anything they need a camera to do - which is, images (not pixels) of the most sublime image quality anyone might possibly wish for.

Because the whining about Canon's "sub-standard" sensors says more about the whiners (and their own failings) than it does about the sensors.

Simply put, they "defend" because that's the proper reaction to the bullsh*t. Other people who (God help them) might choose to visit Canonrumors to get some useful information about the capabilities of Canon cameras deserve a balanced view that pushes back against the interminable DR crap.

And it'll continue to happen for as long as the DR whiners continue to push their DR agenda, and as long as that agenda continues to mean sweet FA for the vast majoiity of photographers out there in the Real World.

blah blah blah

and yeah great just you GO Keith! Keep up the good fight to help insure Canon lens lovers get stuck with inferior sensors for low ISO, you go!!!!

 

[Mitch.Conner]

So to sum up this thread: my camera > your camera.

You forgot the "but my camera goes to 11" part. Otherwise, you nailed it.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

even when its only in extrem cases when you have to push the shadows... it still makes the sensor better. there is no use in denying it and saying that it doesn't matter.

Nobody's denying that the Sony sensors test better in "edge case" circumstances - and it's somewhere between disingenuous and downright dishonest to suggest that we're saying anything to the contrary.

(Even though you'll notice the striking lack of Real World examples out there of images that only a Nikon/Sony camera - and definitely not a Canon camera - could produce. That's significant, don't you think?)

But the fact is that - for the most part - it doesn't matter. It literally, actually, definitively, demonstrably does not matter.

It doesn't matter to those of us who never get down to 100 ISO (never below 400 ISO myself); it doesn't matter to those of us who don't need to push shadows five stops (and for the record, I don't believe anyone needs to do that as a matter of routine unless they're incapable of exposing an image properly in the first place); it doesn't matter to those of us who are more interest in highlight latitude - where Canon sensors do very well, incidentally; and it doesn't matter to those hundreds of thousands (probably millions) of photographers who simply want cameras that do what needs to be done with a minimum of fuss, and who don't have any interest in the DR obsession.

it´s just childish behavior.

What's childish is the infantile insistence of some that low ISO DR is all that matters, and that because it (supposedly) matters so much to them, it's all that should matter to anyone and everyone.

This is pretty much the definition of petulant, spoiled-brat "I'll scream and scream until I make myself sick!" behaviour.

That's what we rail against.

Please have the decency accurately to characterise the nature of our position, instead of dumbing it down into something it's not.

yeah sure Keith

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

are you royal or why do you use the word "we"?

i have a life that´s why i don´t waste my time searching and quoting such comments i was refering to.

Speaking of "childish"...

The use of "we" in my post was completely correct - I'm part of the group that's challenging the DR whiners, and part of the group you called "childish".

Yeah because calling them DR whiners and DRoners and lab geeks and fools who take a picture or who don't know to use a camera is sooo....

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Nobody's denying that the Sony sensors test better in "edge case" circumstances - and it's somewhere between disingenuous and downright dishonest to suggest that we're saying anything to the contrary.

(Even though you'll notice the striking lack of Real World examples out there of images that only a Nikon/Sony camera - and definitely not a Canon camera - could produce. That's significant, don't you think?)

To be fair, I think jrista posted two reasonable examples: one was the room interior with bright window, and the other was a stream with bright sky. I've had trouble with both of those kinds of shots and, while there are ways to adapt to the situations, such as choosing time of day for minimal DR, his point is still valid: if you happen to be at one of these locations at that time of day, those two shots would benefit from the D8xx sensor.

This harkens back to discussions on auto-focus and frame rate. We can focus manually, and we can time the shot correctly the first time to get excellent results; however, good AF and high frame rate will increase the range of circumstances where the chance of success is good. I definitely want better low ISO DR to find its way into Canon's cameras, but it's not enough to make me sell my gear and buy Nikon.

Or forest scenes, it's sooo easy with sunbeams entering forests to reach high DR scenarios and filters are useless since things are so complicated, you surely can't light the scene, and often branches are constantly swaying so multi-exposure isn't always in the mix. Or say post storms like where you have areas in shadows and others with the sun blasting out rays and the mists are swirling all over, pretty amazing, but very hard to manage without a ton of DR.

etc. etc.

Sure you can shoot an infinite number of amazing shots with the older sensors. But all the same why fight so hard to not get the chance to be able to better shoot a ton more types of scenes that you need to skip or struggle with? Some people like shooting that kind of stuff and run across it often enough. And even for simple exposure mistakes, who hasn't had some out of the blue shoot come up and you have a one shot chance and no time to adjust settings, etc. why fight to not get a sensor that always you to deal with that? The only people that does any good are a few big Canon stock holders and the pockets of some major players at Canon.

 

[Loswr]

Lastly, the 5D3 is still selling good so there's no reason to rush any upgrade. I look forward to seeing what Canon really brings to the table when it's time to upgrade the 5D3.

Competition is a good thing!

Indeed. The 7D was a top seller for years, leading to a long upgrade cycle. The 100-400L remains popular, and despite unfortunately frequent false rumors, it's likely that Canon feels little pressure to replace it.

Competition is certainly good for us consumers, and in the D810 it appears Nikon might have something that approaches being competitive with the 5DIII. It's still not really a replacement for the D700, maybe the rumored D750 which Nikon fans seem to be latching onto will fit that need. I wonder how the DRones will feel if it doesn't use a Sony sensor...

Regardless, the 5DIII continues to be a strong seller, and as mentioned earlier at least some reviews (the unbiased ones, at any rate) still view the 5DIII as the better all-around camera. Coupled with Canon's excellent lens lineup, that means an uphill battle for Nikon (and Mt. Everest for Sony), as the market share situation shows.

 

[Loswr]

...a sensor that always <allows> you to deal with that

That's soooo right. Exmor is clearly a miracle sensor designed by some clever deity for His or Her own use. Especially clever of that deity to decree an 11th Commandment...

The World and the Sun which I made to lighteth it shall have No More than 14 stops of Dynamical Ranges, so that Mine Own Mighty Exmor Shall Forever and Always deal with that.