Lots of Talk, Very Little Solid Information About Canon's Next Cameras

[Durf]

Many folks want FF mirrorless to be exciting, buzzworthy and cool. Canon wants it to simply exist, work well and be well-targeted to make specific moves in the market. Those are two very different things.

- A

Very often companies that promote "exciting, buzzworthy and cool" usually do so because there products do not work that well. Sony FF is a great example, in my experience. Maybe because I am older, "exciting, buzzworthy and cool" have very little appeal to me - in fact are probably negatives for the reason stated above. Give me "easy to use, well made and reliable" any day of the week.

I'm getting older too....my "exciting, buzzworthy and cool" is driving around in my 1996 Silverado 4x4 with my 6D Mark ii laying on the seat with an old Takumar 85mm f/1.8 Lens attached to it. All 3 which are extremely "easy to use, well made and reliable".

 

[unfocused]

Many folks want FF mirrorless to be exciting, buzzworthy and cool. Canon wants it to simply exist, work well and be well-targeted to make specific moves in the market. Those are two very different things.

- A

Very often companies that promote "exciting, buzzworthy and cool" usually do so because there products do not work that well. Sony FF is a great example, in my experience. Maybe because I am older, "exciting, buzzworthy and cool" have very little appeal to me - in fact are probably negatives for the reason stated above. Give me "easy to use, well made and reliable" any day of the week.

I'm getting older too....my "exciting, buzzworthy and cool" is driving around in my 1996 Silverado 4x4 with my 6D Mark ii laying on the seat with an old Takumar 85mm f/1.8 Lens attached to it. All 3 which are extremely "easy to use, well made and reliable".

I think a lot of the disagreements on this site come down to different expectations. It may be generational, I'm not sure, but it seems like some people view cameras as just another electronic device like a laptop or a smart phone or gaming console and expect the latest technology to be incorported fairly frequently.

Others think of cameras as basically an appliance, intended to perform a certain function and a means to achieve a goal -- personal expression, documenting moments, etc. And, expect to replace it infrequently.

One isn't necessarily right and one wrong, but hard for one side to understand the other's perspective.

 

[fullstop]

Others think of cameras as basically an appliance, ...

One isn't necessarily right and one wrong, but hard for one side to understand the other's perspective.

yes, I agree with your observation.

SCNR: "But those that view cameras like an appliance should get one not in black, nor in pink, light blue, or champagne color, but only in "PC-beige" or "washer/dryer off-white". ;D ;D

 

[Loswr]

SCNR: "But those that view cameras like an appliance should get one not in black, nor in pink, light blue, or champagne color, but only in "PC-beige" or "washer/dryer off-white". ;D ;D

Nonsense. All my appliances are stainless steel. I bought the EOS M6 in black so I could tell it apart from my other appliances. ;D

 

[fullstop]

SCNR: "But those that view cameras like an appliance should get one not in black, nor in pink, light blue, or champagne color, but only in "PC-beige" or "washer/dryer off-white". ;D ;D

Nonsense. All my appliances are stainless steel. I bought the EOS M6 in black so I could tell it apart from my other appliances. ;D

LOL ... not surprised you got a Bulthaupt kitchen at home.

PS: daughter has unboxed M50 [in black ofc] and is happy ... the most about Wifi / Camera connect with her iPhone. LOL ;D

 

[dak723]

Many folks want FF mirrorless to be exciting, buzzworthy and cool. Canon wants it to simply exist, work well and be well-targeted to make specific moves in the market. Those are two very different things.

- A

Very often companies that promote "exciting, buzzworthy and cool" usually do so because there products do not work that well. Sony FF is a great example, in my experience. Maybe because I am older, "exciting, buzzworthy and cool" have very little appeal to me - in fact are probably negatives for the reason stated above. Give me "easy to use, well made and reliable" any day of the week.

I'm getting older too....my "exciting, buzzworthy and cool" is driving around in my 1996 Silverado 4x4 with my 6D Mark ii laying on the seat with an old Takumar 85mm f/1.8 Lens attached to it. All 3 which are extremely "easy to use, well made and reliable".

I think a lot of the disagreements on this site come down to different expectations. It may be generational, I'm not sure, but it seems like some people view cameras as just another electronic device like a laptop or a smart phone or gaming console and expect the latest technology to be incorported fairly frequently.

Others think of cameras as basically an appliance, intended to perform a certain function and a means to achieve a goal -- personal expression, documenting moments, etc. And, expect to replace it infrequently.

One isn't necessarily right and one wrong, but hard for one side to understand the other's perspective.

Good observation. I agree that this difference is hard for some to reconcile. For those like me - who look at cameras as the tool I use to take photographs - it is frustrating to try and reason with those that believe that spec sheets are the be all and end all when it comes to cameras. I understand that review sites - in order to exist and get clicks - have to concentrate on and exaggerate the importance of those minuscule differences in various tests in order to differentiate between cameras in their ratings. Those that want "innovation" and "advances" can't seem to comprehend that some of us may prefer 24 to 36 MP, or 16 AF points rather than 144, or don't see any great advantage to a camera that reaches AF in .2 seconds rather than .18 seconds. It's about the photos, not the camera. How reliable is it? How easy and quickly can I change settings so I don't miss the shot? How accurate is the AF? How accurate is the exposure? How is the color? How is the contrast and tonal curves? If the camera I have does all that to my complete satisfaction, why switch brands or even upgrade?

In terms of appliances...why would I buy a washer that has all the latest tech, but doesn't get my clothes any cleaner? I wouldn't. Some would, and, in my opinion, they would be wasting their money.

 

[Loswr]

In terms of appliances...why would I buy a washer that has all the latest tech, but doesn't get my clothes any cleaner? I wouldn't. Some would, and, in my opinion, they would be wasting their money.

I just don't get you. If your washer doesn't have Bluetooth, it's sh!t.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

In terms of appliances...why would I buy a washer that has all the latest tech, but doesn't get my clothes any cleaner? I wouldn't. Some would, and, in my opinion, they would be wasting their money.

I just don't get you. If your washer doesn't have Bluetooth, it's sh!t.

My new Gas Range has wi-fi, as to its usefulness, the feature is just there to convince buyers that its got the latest and greatest. I had no choice, since the range was what I needed. I can see which burners are lighted and the oven temperature on my iPhone via Wi-Fi, but only if I turn it on manually. I'm glad my iPhone cannot turn it on, that would let a hacker do some nasty things.

 

[stevelee]

I'm reminded of the reviews I've read on c|net of expensive refrigerators that they say do all sorts of amazing things well except for keeping food cold.

 

[transpo1]

...it's common sense. Any prosumer or pro MILC by Canon will alter (and therefore disrupt) the Canon DSLR product line. You're arguing semantics now, but it's a fact.

Yes, just like the EOS M lineup has disrupted Canon's APS-C DSLR lineup. Oh, wait..... :

Your response is an interesting premise but it doesn't reflect the data. DSLRs sales are continuing on a slow decline while mirrorless sales hold steady or increase, especially in Asia, which is a key motivating market for Canon and the other companies in question.

So the disruption is happening, it just may be outside of your bubble.

Don't you hate it when reality bites you?

Yes, I do. But in this case, you’re the one who’s been bitten...and if you look carefully at the bite mark on your butt, you’ll see an exact match to your own teeth.

Read the words I highlighted above...your words. DSLR sales are continuing on the same course...a slow decline (which is typical for a saturated/mature market). Continuing on the same course. Where’s the disruption? There isn’t one.

But, thanks for playing. Better luck next time! 8)

Haha, nice try and interesting spin.

But the disruption is the slow decline, so I'm afraid reality has actually bitten you again. If you actually look at the market graphs for the past two years, the decline in DSLR shipments and increase in mirrorless shipments actually correspond very well.

And with 3 mirrorless cameras likely on the way, I'm inclined to think Canon agrees with the disruption theory. And oh, yes, their executives have actually said so:

"[Canon must] actively roll out products for a growth market even if there is some cannibalization."

Isn't this game fun?

 

[Loswr]

But the disruption is the slow decline

I could probably find a more oxymoronic statement...but I'd have to look hard.

If you look at the market over time, DSLRs show the characteristic pattern for a mature/saturating market. MILCs are a slow evolution of that market. Canon sees that, obviously. They're adding MILCs to their ILC lineup, and also adding new DSLRs. There's no disruption of their DSLR lineup.

Truly, your understanding of market dynamics is dizzying.

Isn't this game fun?

Not really. I enjoy a challenge, and this isn't one, it's more like the New England Patriots playing a football game against a bunch of 5 year-olds on a Pop Warner team. But there, at least the 5 year-olds might learn something.

 

[stevelee]

I was looking at lenses at Best Buy yesterday. A woman walked up to the salesman I was talking with and said a friend told her that mirrorless cameras took better pictures than DSLRs. The salesman told her that comparable models of either took equally good pictures. She said that she had too many cameras and barely used most of them, especially her Nikon DSLR. She was about to make another trip to Japan and needed something to take with her. We were standing near the Sony display, and she picked up one of the FF models and that it was as heavy as her regular cameras. So the guy had her look at some of the crop models. He mentioned that she would need to be even more careful when changing lenses since the sensor is even more unprotected when there is no mirror in front of it. He said that the Sony specialist she had dealt with before was working, but he didn't see him around just then. She decided to do some more reading and come back. The Sony guy came back about then, I guess, because she greeted someone and said she would see him later.

I doubt she is typical of camera buyers, though she does provide 100% of my anecdotal evidence about mirrorless customers. I suspect there could be insights to be gleaned from this encounter anyway.

I then proceeded to buy the 16-35mm f/4 I had been looking at.

 

[3kramd5]

Sounds like a typical box store salesman encounter.

 

[Talys]

I was looking at lenses at Best Buy yesterday... She decided to do some more reading and come back...

I then proceeded to buy the 16-35mm f/4 I had been looking at.

Except that it usually isn't best buy, because their camera department sucks here, this is parallels my experience every other time I go to a camera store. Well ok, I don't have a car full of 16-35's

She said that she had too many cameras and barely used most of them.

The myth is that a full frame mirrorless will do what the many other cameras could not: "this will help me take more pictures".

The reason people who have a whole bunch of cameras that they barely use are in that situation is that they see amazing photography in magazines and online, yet their photos fall far short of that. They refuse to accept that mirrorless or not, they're still not going to take amazing photographs, if they're not willing to climb a pretty steep learning curve, and take a lot of not-amazing photographs in the process. Watching 4 minute YouTubes of 10 simple things that will magically improve your photography doesn't count.

But for the camera manufacturers and the camera stores, this is a core customer set: the person who will come back and buy stuff hoping that the product hype will be their reality this time. Really, she should go back and look a the amazing photos that Canon said were taken with a t3i. Wow, those looked good!

No doubt, many of these people will buy a mirrorless camera, though let's be real: it's not like APSC mirrorless camera's haven't been around for years, and a lot of them aren't going to fork out $2,500 for another kick at the can. Still it's something to try.

In truth, anyone who has a bunch of cameras they barely use and is disappointed with their short stints at photography, would probably be happier with a much simpler device than the menu and configuration hell that is a Sony FF ILC. They'd probably be even happier if they didn't have to change lenses or lug camera gear, or set stuff on the camera at all. A multilens smartphone comes to mind as something that would be great for their trip to Japan, because they'll always have it on them, and although they might not shoot the next Vanity Fair or National Geographic cover, the photos they take will be in-focus shots of great memories, and more importantly, they'll take a lot more of them.

 

[stevelee]

The myth is that a full frame mirrorless will do what the many other cameras could not: "this will help me take more pictures".

The reason people who have a whole bunch of cameras that they barely use are in that situation is that they see amazing photography in magazines and online, yet their photos fall far short of that. They refuse to accept that mirrorless or not, they're still not going to take amazing photographs, if they're not willing to climb a pretty steep learning curve, and take a lot of not-amazing photographs in the process. Watching 4 minute YouTubes of 10 simple things that will magically improve your photography doesn't count.

But for the camera manufacturers and the camera stores, this is a core customer set: the person who will come back and buy stuff hoping that the product hype will be their reality this time. Really, she should go back and look a the amazing photos that Canon said were taken with a t3i. Wow, those looked good!

Well, I have taken rather amazing photos with my T3i. Some of my best pictures ever were made in the 1960s with a Yashica rangefinder camera with a 45mm lens.

When I travel, I take my G7X II and leave my DSLRs and lenses at home. 13" x 19" prints from those trips grace the walls of my house. If I were advising her, I would suggest that camera or something similar, maybe one of the higher, but less pocketable, G models in her case.

My experiences with the camera department at this particular Best Buy have been very positive, more so than in any "real" camera store I have been in since 1975, say, or in other departments at Best Buy. They have people who shoot the brands they specialize in. Like my guy did, they defer to others in the department who know more about something than they do. He had sold me the 6D2 last year, and came over to ask how I was doing with it. Before the lady came over, that is what we were talking about. From comments here and in reviews, I had already planned to buy the 16-35mm f/4 around October unless some reason not to came along. After our conversation, I couldn't think of a good reason to wait. One of the reasons I stopped was to see if they had been able to maintain the department. Ladies with way too many cameras they don't use may help sustain it, to my benefit.

After my purchase, we talked about his advancing photography career and specifically about shooting interiors, since I was buying a SWA and he is getting a realtor for a client, and I had mentioned that I had done some work like that for friends in the business.

 

[Durf]

The myth is that a full frame mirrorless will do what the many other cameras could not: "this will help me take more pictures".

The reason people who have a whole bunch of cameras that they barely use are in that situation is that they see amazing photography in magazines and online, yet their photos fall far short of that. They refuse to accept that mirrorless or not, they're still not going to take amazing photographs, if they're not willing to climb a pretty steep learning curve, and take a lot of not-amazing photographs in the process. Watching 4 minute YouTubes of 10 simple things that will magically improve your photography doesn't count.

But for the camera manufacturers and the camera stores, this is a core customer set: the person who will come back and buy stuff hoping that the product hype will be their reality this time. Really, she should go back and look a the amazing photos that Canon said were taken with a t3i. Wow, those looked good!

Well, I have taken rather amazing photos with my T3i. Some of my best pictures ever were made in the 1960s with a Yashica rangefinder camera with a 45mm lens.

When I travel, I take my G7X II and leave my DSLRs and lenses at home. 13" x 19" prints from those trips grace the walls of my house. If I were advising her, I would suggest that camera or something similar, maybe one of the higher, but less pocketable, G models in her case.

My experiences with the camera department at this particular Best Buy have been very positive, more so than in any "real" camera store I have been in since 1975, say, or in other departments at Best Buy. They have people who shoot the brands they specialize in. Like my guy did, they defer to others in the department who know more about something than they do. He had sold me the 6D2 last year, and came over to ask how I was doing with it. Before the lady came over, that is what we were talking about. From comments here and in reviews, I had already planned to buy the 16-35mm f/4 around October unless some reason not to came along. After our conversation, I couldn't think of a good reason to wait. One of the reasons I stopped was to see if they had been able to maintain the department. Ladies with way too many cameras they don't use may help sustain it, to my benefit.

After my purchase, we talked about his advancing photography career and specifically about shooting interiors, since I was buying a SWA and he is getting a realtor for a client, and I had mentioned that I had done some work like that for friends in the business.

You're gonna love that 16-35 f/4L Lens, I use mine for landscape and also for all my home interior cabinet shots. (I own a custom cabinet shop). I use it on a 6D2 always.

I usually have to use a tripod in homes doing interior cabinetry images to get the best results because of dim lighting. Flash or bright lights always show a glare on my cabinet finishes so most are done with natural light (slow shutter speeds at f4 to f8). My copy is razor sharp right at f4 and pretty much right to f16. (all the way to the corners).

Awesome lens!

 

[Talys]

The myth is that a full frame mirrorless will do what the many other cameras could not: "this will help me take more pictures".

The reason people who have a whole bunch of cameras that they barely use are in that situation is that they see amazing photography in magazines and online, yet their photos fall far short of that. They refuse to accept that mirrorless or not, they're still not going to take amazing photographs, if they're not willing to climb a pretty steep learning curve, and take a lot of not-amazing photographs in the process. Watching 4 minute YouTubes of 10 simple things that will magically improve your photography doesn't count.

But for the camera manufacturers and the camera stores, this is a core customer set: the person who will come back and buy stuff hoping that the product hype will be their reality this time. Really, she should go back and look a the amazing photos that Canon said were taken with a t3i. Wow, those looked good!

Well, I have taken rather amazing photos with my T3i. Some of my best pictures ever were made in the 1960s with a Yashica rangefinder camera with a 45mm lens.

...

This is exactly my point. The lady with the closet full of cameras could pull any one of them out, and if she wanted to improve her photography, she could take spectacular photos with any of them. When I need to take many angle shots of multiple products, I might even have a t2i out (because it's much easier to take 5 shots of 30 products, if you have 5 cameras all on tripods that don't move), and guess what? Nobody can tell the difference with 3500x3500 pixel photos, which is the largest anyone ever wants from me.

That she hardly uses them has nothing to do with whether it's a Sony or Canon or Mirrorless or DSLR -- though it will most certainly benefit the Best Buy for her to buy a Sony mirrorless

The problem with Best Buy in West Coast Canada is that they don't really sell much current stuff. Their bodies are all 1-2 generations old, and largely kitted with consumer lenses. So, if you want a t5i with an older 55-250, you can probably get a great bundle. But if you're going to spend money on a new camera, you might as well get something newer at about the same price... or go to Costco, where something older will be bundled with an extra lens or something. In terms of "stuff I want", our Best Buy just doesn't have it. Like, they won't even have a 16-35/4 or 2.8 (though they could order it). But they certainly won't have good tripods, good light stands, rolls of paper, softboxes, Rogue products, reflectors, or anything like that, which I actually need on an ongoing basis (since the stuff gets consumed or worn out or damaged) -- and very rarely stuff like Peak Design or ThinkTank bags, which I enjoy looking at.

 

[ehouli]

It's about time that Canon releases an APS-C body without the Anti-aliasing Filter. In Canon's FF cameras it doesn't bother me, since is sharp enough but in APS-C, or at least on the 7D series the images are really mushy, unless you take them very close.

 

[Loswr]

It's about time that Canon releases an APS-C body without the Anti-aliasing Filter. In Canon's FF cameras it doesn't bother me, since is sharp enough but in APS-C, or at least on the 7D series the images are really mushy, unless you take them very close.

Appropriate sharpening can help significantly.

 

[stevelee]

You're gonna love that 16-35 f/4L Lens, I use mine for landscape and also for all my home interior cabinet shots. (I own a custom cabinet shop). I use it on a 6D2 always.

I usually have to use a tripod in homes doing interior cabinetry images to get the best results because of dim lighting. Flash or bright lights always show a glare on my cabinet finishes so most are done with natural light (slow shutter speeds at f4 to f8). My copy is razor sharp right at f4 and pretty much right to f16. (all the way to the corners).

Awesome lens!

Thanks.

A good thing about photographing interiors in my neighborhood is that the houses all have open and light designs, so available light from the windows has been enough for the projects I did. It gives everything a natural look without working at it. Perhaps I warmed the colors a bit in ACR to look closer to how they appear in person.