Lots of Talk, Very Little Solid Information About Canon's Next Cameras
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Well, neuro finally got the better of Talys 
My friends, I had a stroke yesterday and was rushed to the emergency neuro surgical center for a craniotomy. So that is definitely neuro 1 talys 0
These guys are great here at the royal columbiann.soi I wil back up to no good on my camera and these forums soon enough. Love you all!
And the mistakes have nothing to do with brain surgery and everything to do
with junk android keyboard!
Android autocorrect = Sony autofocus. Miss you guys so much. Look forward to Harry inventing cold fusion by the time I'm out.
Ps could not take the attached photo in canondslr or milc lol
My friends, I had a stroke yesterday and was rushed to the emergency neuro surgical center for a craniotomy. So that is definitely neuro 1 talys 0
These guys are great here at the royal columbiann.soi I wil back up to no good on my camera and these forums soon enough. Love you all!
And the mistakes have nothing to do with brain surgery and everything to do
with junk android keyboard!
Android autocorrect = Sony autofocus. Miss you guys so much. Look forward to Harry inventing cold fusion by the time I'm out.
Ps could not take the attached photo in canondslr or milc lol
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Talys said:Well, neuro finally got the better of Talys
My friends, I had a stroke yesterday and was rushed to the emergency neuro surgical center for a craniotomy. So that is definitely neuro 1 talys 0
These guys are great here at the royal columbiann.soi I wil back up to no good on my camera and these forums soon enough. Love you all!
And the mistakes have nothing to do with brain surgery and everything to do
with junk android keyboard!
Android autocorrect = Sony autofocus. Miss you guys so much. Look forward to Harry inventing cold fusion by the time I'm out.
Ps could not take the attached photo in canondslr or milc lol
Good luck, Talys.
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Talys said:My friends, I had a stroke yesterday and was rushed to the emergency neuro surgical center for a craniotomy. So that is definitely neuro 1 talys 0
Glad to hear you retaining your sense of humor in difficult times! Swift recovery and keep us posted on when you’re back behind the camera!
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neuroanatomist said:transpo1 said:
I could probably find a more oxymoronic statement...but I'd have to look hard.
If you look at the market over time, DSLRs show the characteristic pattern for a mature/saturating market. MILCs are a slow evolution of that market. Canon sees that, obviously. They're adding MILCs to their ILC lineup, and also adding new DSLRs. There's no disruption of their DSLR lineup.
Truly, your understanding of market dynamics is dizzying.
transpo1 said:Isn't this game fun?
Not really. I enjoy a challenge, and this isn't one, it's more like the New England Patriots playing a football game against a bunch of 5 year-olds on a Pop Warner team. But there, at least the 5 year-olds might learn something.
So the New England Patriots, eh? Maybe cheating for the win? Interesting analogy
(And this comes from a former MA resident, by the way, so I'm all for New England teams.)As for market dynamics, I know it's hard to ignore common sense- but I have to compliment you because you do it so well. Defending Canon's (past) strategy and the notion that the market is not changing in such an emotional way is an staggering feat.
I'd encourage you to take a good, long look at your own profile, though- please note that there is an M6 on it. I'd wager that if the M6 MILC you own wasn't available, you would have eventually bought a different small body camera, perhaps an SL2- in other words, a DSLR.
Now, I know you'll protest this profusely, because you don't want to be wrong, but everyone else here will realize that if MILCs weren't available, you may have just bought another (smaller) DSLR.
Now, imagine you're a first-time camera buyer and you walk into B&H. You look at a Canon Rebel but the salesman steers you towards the M50 because you say you want to do video and you buy it. +1 MILC -1 DSLRs. That is called disruption.
By the way, Canon focusing more on MILCs- using resources that could be focused elsewhere- and being willing to cannibalize their DSLRs- that is also called disruption- disrupting your business. Every MILC Canon sells is money that may have been spent on one of their DSLRs. Every engineer that is pulled from an existing DSLR team to work on a FF mirrorless? Disruption. This is common sense.
Truly, I am staggered by the business acumen you've displayed.
Along with the aforementioned Asia #s, which I hope you'll eventually take a look at, you'll see the market increases for MILC, and see there are many more people like you, who would have bought a DSLR if not for mirrorless.
The markets can co-exist, but as that Canon executive noted, there has been and will be cannibalization- it's unavoidable.
And as noted above, it's common sense.
Happy 4th!
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Talys said:My friends, I had a stroke yesterday and was rushed to the emergency neuro surgical center for a craniotomy. So that is definitely neuro 1 talys 0
So sorry to hear that, hope your road to recovery is short and smooth, you have your sense of humour always a great help.
Regards
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transpo1 said:
Nope. It is called competition.
Not disruption, it is called widening your product base.transpo1 said:
I saw a documentary years ago about marketing and they pointed out that (here in Europe)the top 3 (or was it 4) washing powders were all made by the same mega conglomerate company, even the one that was deliberately made to look like it was a cheap independent manufacturer.
What you are describing is not new. They have merely put a new word on it and called it 'disruption' to make it sound technical and woolly and appealing. And you have fallen for it.
To paraphrase your own words...Truly, I am staggered by the business acumen you've displayed...or lack of it.
transpo1 said:
That is called filling a need in a changing market. Common business sense - I don't know why you are making such a big thing about it.
In fact, Canon is one of the top 2 MILC manufacturers so they are clearly doing it right and clearly know what the market needs. For the last 7 years, predictions of Canon's downfall have repeatedly been shown to be wrong.
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transpo1 said:
Please point out where I stated the market isn't changing. Actually, that's a completely rhetorical request...you can't, because I haven't. It seems you believe that any change in a market equates to a disruption. That not accurate, it's just a figment of your imaginary business acumen. Perhaps a definition would help:
Investopedia] [i]Market disruption is a situation where markets cease to function in a regular manner said:
In fact, I'd have kept using the high-end P&S cameras I had been using (and upgrading as new models came out) until the EOS M came along. But if it makes you feel better to believe something untrue, you go right ahead...as you've amply demonstrated, believing untrue things is firmly in your wheelhouse.
transpo1 said:
The market data are clearly showing slow changes. Canon is slowly changing their product lineup to tap another part of the market, and started doing so when it became worth their while. They're doing it by adding MILCs while expanding their DSLR offerings. But thanks for demonstrating by your complete lack of it that common sense isn't all that common.
transpo1 said:
I'm sure you are...but apparently not staggered enough to actually learn something. I was wrong earlier, this is not like the Patriots playing 5 year-olds...after all, the kids might get lucky. This is as challenging as shooting fish in a barrel...with a grenade launcher.
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unfocused
Photos/Photo Book Reviews: www.thecuriouseye.com
transpo1 said:
But I really did just buy an SL2. So, I guess that means +1 DLSR and -1 MILC. Which by your logic means that the SL2 is totally disrupting the MILC market.
This is asinine. Clearly you learned a really cool word "disruption," but as Neuro and others have pointed out, you have no idea what it means and instead of just acknowledging you were wrong, you are doubling down on your wrong-ness.
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I think it was a George Gobel movie in which his secretary learned a new vocabulary word each day from a feature in the newspaper. She would use the word over and over during the day, each time meaning something completely different, having no relationship with the meaning of the word.
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in this forum "semantics nitpicking" is very important, unfortunately.
i think, "disruptive" is interpreted by some/many here as "immediate, short-term, massive change", such as "mirrorless cameras bring DSLR sales to a screeching halt". or "Canon bankrupt as market demand for Mirrorslappers has dropped to zero within 6 months".
evidently, this has not happened, so there is "no disruption visible anywhere to Canon/mirrorslapper "defenders".
of course this perception/interpretation does not preclude to realize in retrospect (!) that "within only a short few years mirrorless caneras have fully replaced previously dominant DSLRs" ir even "due to the massive market disruption caused by the move to mirrorless cameras, some camera makers not able to adapt fast enough, went out of business". while there are more prominent candidates for that like Ricoh (Pentax) or Nikon, Canon certainly is not "untouchably safe". they are late to market with mirrorless and are paying a price for it. every Sony or Fuji mirrorless camera and lens (!) sold, could have been Canon cameras and lenses. transition from film to digital cameras has not happened overnight either. yet it has killed Kodak and - in retrospect - can only be viewed as "truly disruptive". or the transition of music on physical media - decades of schellacks, decades of vinyl LPs, 15 years of CDs, to a few years of "downloads" and now a very few years of "streaming" - all those transitions were experienced as multi-year "slow" at the time, but "rapid and disruptive" in retrospect. and they have caused massive "disruptions" for many companies and rhe entire "entertainment/content" industry. as a little example just read up on Sony DADC and the fate of their plants ... fairly disruptive.
canon has been spared really big trouble until now not least due to their good luck that both Sony and Fuji have not played their mirrorless cards very well". they made bad mistakes and therefore failed to grab a much larger share of the market quickly. fuji: aps-c only and irrelevant numbers "pseudo mf" + retro design + high prices; sony: neglect of aps-c lens lineup and bodies, nothing new since A6500 and A5100, poor choice of lens mount for FF, FE lens lineup too skewed towards hi-end, big, very expensive lenses with performance at best on par with less expensive Canon/Nikon lenses. and mirrorless mFT makers oly, panasonic are hanging in the ropes. some video tricks, but that will not save them much longer. sensor too small relative to size and price of gear. oly certainly appears to be deep in the corporate danger zone.
the mirrorless writing is on the wall, even if many cannot see or read it or are in denial. "mene mene tekel u-parsin" may well translate as "slap, slap, too big, too fat"
(c) Rembrandt, 1635
i think, "disruptive" is interpreted by some/many here as "immediate, short-term, massive change", such as "mirrorless cameras bring DSLR sales to a screeching halt". or "Canon bankrupt as market demand for Mirrorslappers has dropped to zero within 6 months".
evidently, this has not happened, so there is "no disruption visible anywhere to Canon/mirrorslapper "defenders".
of course this perception/interpretation does not preclude to realize in retrospect (!) that "within only a short few years mirrorless caneras have fully replaced previously dominant DSLRs" ir even "due to the massive market disruption caused by the move to mirrorless cameras, some camera makers not able to adapt fast enough, went out of business". while there are more prominent candidates for that like Ricoh (Pentax) or Nikon, Canon certainly is not "untouchably safe". they are late to market with mirrorless and are paying a price for it. every Sony or Fuji mirrorless camera and lens (!) sold, could have been Canon cameras and lenses. transition from film to digital cameras has not happened overnight either. yet it has killed Kodak and - in retrospect - can only be viewed as "truly disruptive". or the transition of music on physical media - decades of schellacks, decades of vinyl LPs, 15 years of CDs, to a few years of "downloads" and now a very few years of "streaming" - all those transitions were experienced as multi-year "slow" at the time, but "rapid and disruptive" in retrospect. and they have caused massive "disruptions" for many companies and rhe entire "entertainment/content" industry. as a little example just read up on Sony DADC and the fate of their plants ... fairly disruptive.
canon has been spared really big trouble until now not least due to their good luck that both Sony and Fuji have not played their mirrorless cards very well". they made bad mistakes and therefore failed to grab a much larger share of the market quickly. fuji: aps-c only and irrelevant numbers "pseudo mf" + retro design + high prices; sony: neglect of aps-c lens lineup and bodies, nothing new since A6500 and A5100, poor choice of lens mount for FF, FE lens lineup too skewed towards hi-end, big, very expensive lenses with performance at best on par with less expensive Canon/Nikon lenses. and mirrorless mFT makers oly, panasonic are hanging in the ropes. some video tricks, but that will not save them much longer. sensor too small relative to size and price of gear. oly certainly appears to be deep in the corporate danger zone.
the mirrorless writing is on the wall, even if many cannot see or read it or are in denial. "mene mene tekel u-parsin" may well translate as "slap, slap, too big, too fat"
(c) Rembrandt, 1635
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fullstop said:
Is that why they are the top 2 (interchangeably with Olympus) while Sony are 3rd?
So what you are saying is that the other manufacturers are also late to the market with practical implementations of mirrorless technology.fullstop said:
Which means that everyone is late to the market.
Which means Canon is on a par with everyone else.
So Canon is not late at all.
Easy, really.
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The translation is: "Thou art weighed in the balances, and found wanting"; "Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians" (Daniel 5:27). You can interpret that as your fancy takes you as to whom and what is weighed and the modern corporations equivalent to Medes and Persians.fullstop said:in this forum "semantics nitpicking" is very important, unfortunately.
i think, "disruptive" is interpreted by some/many here as "immediate, short-term, massive change", such as "mirrorless cameras bring DSLR sales to a screeching halt". or "Canon bankrupt as market demand for Mirrorslappers has dropped to zero within 6 months".
evidently, this has not happened, so there is "no disruption visible anywhere to Canon/mirrorslapper "defenders".
of course this perception/interpretation does not preclude to realize in retrospect (!) that "within only a short few years mirrorless caneras have fully replaced previously dominant DSLRs" ir even "due to the massive market disruption caused by the move to mirrorless cameras, some camera makers not able to adapt fast enough, went out of business". while there are more prominent candidates for that like Ricoh (Pentax) or Nikon, Canon certainly is not "untouchably safe". they are late to market with mirrorless and are paying a price for it. every Sony or Fuji mirrorless camera and lens (!) sold, could have been Canon cameras and lenses. transition from film to digital cameras has not happened overnight either. yet it has killed Kodak and - in retrospect - can only be viewed as "truly disruptive". or the transition of music on physical media - decades of schellacks, decades of vinyl LPs, 15 years of CDs, to a few years of "downloads" and now a very few years of "streaming" - all those transitions were experienced as multi-year "slow" at the time, but "rapid and disruptive" in retrospect. and they have caused massive "disruptions" for many companies and rhe entire "entertainment/content" industry. as a little example just read up on Sony DADC and the fate of their plants ... fairly disruptive.
canon has been spared really big trouble until now not least due to their good luck that both Sony and Fuji have not played their mirrorless cards very well". they made bad mistakes and therefore failed to grab a much larger share of the market quickly. fuji: aps-c only and irrelevant numbers "pseudo mf" + retro design + high prices; sony: neglect of aps-c lens lineup and bodies, nothing new since A6500 and A5100, poor choice of lens mount for FF, FE lens lineup too skewed towards hi-end, big, very expensive lenses with performance at best on par with less expensive Canon/Nikon lenses. and mirrorless mFT makers oly, panasonic are hanging in the ropes. some video tricks, but that will not save them much longer. sensor too small relative to size and price of gear. oly certainly appears to be deep in the corporate danger zone.
the mirrorless writing is on the wall, even if many cannot see or read it or are in denial. "mene mene tekel u-parsin" may well translate as "slap, slap, too big, too fat"
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