Magic Lantern adds 1/3-1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.

Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.

Sella174 said:
OK, so if I understand this "breakthrough" correctly, then RAW isn't truly RAW.

Not with faster lenses it isn't :-p as Canon adds digital brightness to compensate for the light loss. The most "raw" you get is with full stop iso, and ML now adds about 0.5ev more dynamic range on top of that... but in the current camera generations, every "raw" image is cooked to some extent.
 
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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.

Sella174 said:
Mmmm ... then, if ML fiddles with the actually RAW output, won't that then affect RAW converters?

They're checking every raw converter out there for regressions, no problems yet... on the contrary: Canon's own raw cooking with fast lenses might create problems, ML is giving the raw converter the real data.
 
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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.

Marsu42 said:
Sella174 said:
Mmmm ... then, if ML fiddles with the actually RAW output, won't that then affect RAW converters?

They're checking every raw converter out there for regressions, no problems yet... on the contrary: Canon's own raw cooking with fast lenses might create problems, ML is giving the raw converter the real data.

CAN ML ACHIEVE 4K WITH THE 5D M3???? if so HOW???
 
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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.

Sella174 said:
OK, so if I understand this "breakthrough" correctly, then RAW isn't truly RAW.

In never was in the sense that some gain (at least analog, and likely some digital) and ADC conversion is applied to the voltage coming off the sensor. Plus you then have to fit the voltage reading into 14 bit digital. So there is always going to be some 'manipulation' of the signal. Raw really just means the data has not been converted to an image, lots can still go on before that (e.g. even dark frame subtraction results in a 'raw' image).
 
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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.

Niki said:
Marsu42 said:
Sella174 said:
Mmmm ... then, if ML fiddles with the actually RAW output, won't that then affect RAW converters?

They're checking every raw converter out there for regressions, no problems yet... on the contrary: Canon's own raw cooking with fast lenses might create problems, ML is giving the raw converter the real data.

CAN ML ACHIEVE 4K WITH THE 5D M3???? if so HOW???

You could but its a bit troublesome and a bit heavy to work with to be honest. And it wont be true 4K.

What you do is shoot 2.5k raw then bring it into adobe camera raw and set the output size larger than it is... Ie 4k. It should still look amazing but alas take quite a while to convert the dngs into 4k tiffs.
 
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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.

Niki said:
Marsu42 said:
Sella174 said:
Mmmm ... then, if ML fiddles with the actually RAW output, won't that then affect RAW converters?

They're checking every raw converter out there for regressions, no problems yet... on the contrary: Canon's own raw cooking with fast lenses might create problems, ML is giving the raw converter the real data.

CAN ML ACHIEVE 4K WITH THE 5D M3???? if so HOW???
Copied from ML F.A.Q page:

http://www.magiclantern.fm/faq.html
Troll Questions
...
I am new here I dont know anything about coding [...] I want to be able to shoot Raw and 4K
Why stop at 4k? Why not 8K? Download the 16K firmware and give it a try. Here's a sample video: Video recorded with T2i 4k Firmware
 
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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.

[quote author=Marsu42]

Btw another part of good news from ML development: They will be able to reverse whatever trick Canon is using to cheat with fast lenses (since these capture less light on digital than film)
[/quote]

Wait, what? Can you elaborate? Are you saying that since sensor sensitivites aren't 1:1 with film speeds, canon secrets more gain to compensate? And they only do it for fast lenses? And they do it on a per aperture basis? I'd never heard of this. It seems quite weird.

And it's weirder when one considers that sensor sensitivites aren't even 1:1 with eachother. As someone who only rarely uses film, I care little whether my digital camera at ISO130 exposes the same as Plus-X to within .03 stops, for example.
 
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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.

leGreve said:
Alver said:
leGreve said:
you can remove ML pretty easily… simply power off, remove SD card, remove battery, and you are back to the old Canon again.

Not with this build, not with 5D mk III, as far as I know:

http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=9214.0
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5719.0
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5810.0
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=6035.0
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=7125.0

etc.

Yes with this build also…. ML is on the SD card… not on the camera. What is done to the camera that might be irreversible is the boot flag and the boot time. But who the heck cares really… if you need a 0.2 sec. wake up time, don't mess with ML, easy as that.

If you want awesome functionallity beyond what Canon was willing to give, including filming raw video, then get ML.

Follow the ML install instructions and put ML files on the SD card.

If you some day get tired of ML again and want the original camera, just download Canon firmware 2.3 instead, and that will remove everything except the boot flag.

Stop fearing this….. ML has really improved the 5D!

Here's a couple of tests I did last year with raw:

https://vimeo.com/69840853

https://vimeo.com/70150221

Which 5D do you have? 1,2 or 3?

Again, I'm dying to try this ML on my 5D3, but I'm not willing to do so at this time, due to an irreversible change (the boot flag).

And, from what I've read on all the ML forums, there are lag times in boot and waking from sleep significantly more than .2 seconds.

If you only have one 5D3 and it is your main workhorse, these are serious issues to be concerned with. You cannot get rid of the lag by removing ML at this time, from everything I've read on the forums.

C
 
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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.

Is anyone able to translate into lamens' terms what their latest findings indicate/what the hurdle currently is? From my understanding they're trying to figure out exactly what Canon's processing is doing to RAW images in order to see exactly what their DR shift has done?
 
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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.

AtSea said:
From my understanding they're trying to figure out exactly what Canon's processing is doing to RAW images in order to see exactly what their DR shift has done?

Much simpler than that: For reasons unknown, Canon is simply throwing away 1/3-1/2 stops of dynamic range, you can recover that by changing some setting in the camera. Plus the "trick" from Canon to compensate the light loss inherent to faster lenses is not beneficial if you shoot raw, so ML is working on a way to give you the "real" raw data.
 
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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.

Marsu42 said:
Much simpler than that: For reasons unknown, Canon is simply throwing away 1/3-1/2 stops of dynamic range, you can recover that by changing some setting in the camera. Plus the "trick" from Canon to compensate the light loss inherent to faster lenses is not beneficial if you shoot raw, so ML is working on a way to give you the "real" raw data.

And on the 6D, one may be able to recover as much as 2/3 stop of dynamic range? Wow.
 
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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.

Marsu42 said:
AtSea said:
From my understanding they're trying to figure out exactly what Canon's processing is doing to RAW images in order to see exactly what their DR shift has done?

Much simpler than that: For reasons unknown, Canon is simply throwing away 1/3-1/2 stops of dynamic range, you can recover that by changing some setting in the camera. Plus the "trick" from Canon to compensate the light loss inherent to faster lenses is not beneficial if you shoot raw, so ML is working on a way to give you the "real" raw data.

Now, could this have to do with the way the highlights or shadows are rendered 'past the brink' so to speak - Canon wasn't yet comfortable with it at those extremes so they set a limiter of sorts?

Anyway, very excited about seeing this in action and some examples along with it. Thanks for all of the hard work, it's great news for us.
 
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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.

It says that in order to achieve the 15 stops dynamic range, you need to use this in combination with the dual ISO module. Would that result in extra noise or any other image degradation that comes from shooting in higher ISOs? What's the IQ like when using this?

I'm very excited by this as I was quite tempted to pull the trigger on the A7R.


(PS: Hi, I'm a long-time lurker, first time poster)
 
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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.

There is no extra noise. Instead there is less. This is the concept. There is less noise so the shadows can be increased more.
But I guess the maximum DR advantage would be at ISO 100. Now I hope they do the same for 5D2...
 
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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.

Marsu42 said:
Breakthrough at Magic Lantern, imho this elevates it to a must-have and makes Canon look really stupid: They at last figured out what the digic registers having to do with iso are, and by fine-tuning them your camera now gets an additional 1/2 stop and more of dynamic range, no strings attached. Just use +1/2 stop of ec (ML also has ec in m mode, just like the new 1dx fw) and you're done.

This means that for example on 5d3, iso 800 with ML has more dynamic range than iso 100 with Canon :-> ... and at high iso you're getting 7% more dr which is nothing to sneeze at, esp. since it builds upon Canon's advantage vs. Nikon: d800@6400 = ~8.3 & 5d3@6400 = ~9.4 ev making good ol' Canon the superior sensor for low light high contrast shooting, esp. the newer 6d.

Code:
5D3	Canon	ML
100	11.16	11.55
200	11.08	11.52
400	10.96	11.41
800	10.76	11.2
1600	10.32	10.78
3200	9.72	10.2
6400	8.78	9.35
12800	8.01	8.59

Read all about it here, test modules are about to be out, next coming to a nightly build near you! Here's the dev thread if you want to follow the development: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=9867.msg96529#msg96529

Last not least, in combination with the dual_iso module ML now allows you to cover 15 stops of dynamic range in one shot w/o bracketing (by interlacing the shot with two iso values, meaning there's some loss of fine detail in the extreme highlights/shadows). If you feel exposure challenged, you can use the ettr module to automatically set the exposure so it covers exactly the dynamic range of the scene with optimum snr :-)

Great report. I havent had a chance to try any of this. Wonderiing what effect all of this has on drive mode frame rates?
 
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Re: Magic Lantern adds 1/2 stop of dynamic range - just like that.

Does anyone think Canon is reading this stuff because I am baffled as to why they would cut shot the DR and cheat on RAW's with fast lenses.
 
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