More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]

[KyleSTL]

...I'm sure Canon has had a high MP sensor in development for quite some time now...

Like the 120MP APS-H sensor (August 2010)?
http://www.canonrumors.com/2010/08/canons-120mp-aps-h-sensor/

I'm sure Canon could do anything up to their most-dense 1/2.3" in a full-frame camera, but it'll all depend on what consumers (in the general sense of the word) demand, or what Canon can convince buyers they desire (and of course how much said device will cost to produce).

 

[briansquibb]

I'll look at the potential high MP camera if Canon starts getting their sensors from Sony.

Didn't you mean to go to Nikon Rumours forum?

 

[Ivar]

I'll look at the potential high MP camera if Canon starts getting their sensors from Sony.

Didn't you mean to go to Nikon Rumours forum?

No need, they have one ;-)

 

[briansquibb]

I'll look at the potential high MP camera if Canon starts getting their sensors from Sony.

Didn't you mean to go to Nikon Rumours forum?

No need, they have one ;-)

Not all of them .....

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

From Canon's recent launches, it is obvious that they are trying to build a portfolio around DLSR based movie cams. I would not be surprised to see a 5DC... Perhaps with a much weaker AA filter to improve resolution, better codec... After all, the only real complain about the 5DIII's video capability is the resolving power.

But the biggest complaint is still about the lack of DR improvement. This is what they will take care of first, if they aren't stupid.

i have a bad feeling they will just go crazy with MP 45 and yet with the same old poor DR and zero fps and thus be worse than D800 in every way other than a space eating extra few MP

 

[well_dunno]

I think they will plan to have some announcement prior to, and some pre-production samples in Photokina - I cannot see how they could possibly neglect it. If not a new FF, perhaps a 7D mk II or a 70D?.. Though if I am not mistaken no new APS-C sensor will be on those - "an improved 18 MP sensor" as the rumor went. Not sure how much attention Canon would attract with them in Photokina if that is the case...

Also, I have not seen any rumor on the sensor of this entry level FF. Would it be the same as 5d mk III or 1DX or another sensor which could be used on, let's say, an upcoming 1Ds mk 4? I think CR is very accurate on his take and Canon is waiting to see what market wants. They have 5 sensors out and depending on the market reactions, they will make the call...

My humble opinion anyway...

Cheers!

 

[squarebox]

I'm starting to think the future of APS-C will be in mirrorless cameras and they're going to get phased out in the "prosumer" market.

I take this one step further and suspect once mirrorless cameras loose their 'toy' stigma, they will probably eat the full frame market too. Once they get the electronic viewfinders up to similar quality to the optical ones, the advantages to being able to see exactly what the sensor is seeing will outweigh the 'it has a mirror!' thing.
-clip/crop-

PENTAX has that funky brick-like but surprisingly ergonomic K-01 mirrorless that uses their standard lens mount. Great concept, I really like it, would buy one if I had Pentax glass.
http://pentax.ca/en/digital_slr/K-01/

Canon needs to consider doing the same thing with an EOS mount, crop and FF. But dammit, use better sensors than their current offerings.

No mirror = much higher fps possible, and much less mirror-slap/bounce to blur hi-rez sensors. Also cheaper lighter package to produce. But make sure we have some smart AF options, not just slow contrast detection. There are some patents that allow more predictive AF using a live-view function to speed things up. This could be a very useful product system for the future.

And if there are some new entry level FF cameras coming, they'd REALLY better improve that low ISO performance and DR cuz I'd rather boost my Canon lineup with some TSE lenses and more FF bodies than figure out how to make the same shots on a D800 or rumored D400/D600.

Canon, make use a REAL landscape camera that can compete with the D800! You already have some of the required glass that they don't.

Nikon has the same thing on their mirrorless as well. I think this is the best route for Canon as well to be able to keep selling EF-S lens.

 

[Inst]

With regards to dynamic range, the main issue is that Sony's sensor architecture results in dramatically lower read noise compared to Canon. But read noise is not the only factor affecting sensor noise; high ISO noise is the other. Once high ISO noise becomes the dominating factor in sensor noise, Canon's sensors are competitive with Sony's.

The two ways for Canon to fix this problem is for them to redesign their sensor architecture to reduce read noise, or just to jack up the MP count so much that ISO 100 looks like ISO 3200 on a per pixel basis. However, this means that on a print basis, you can't tell the difference between Canon and Sony.

The current EV difference between Canon and Sony is 2.59 EV at ISO 100. Increasing pixels to a factor of 6 gives you about 132 MP, and should completely bridge the gap between Canon and Sony at ISO 100 while making it so that Canon would have better performance at ISO 200.

An increase in MP by 5 times, though, would require 6 times the processing capability. To match the D800's 4 frames per second, you'd need 4 DIGIC V+ processors. This would also likely cut battery life by 3/4ths, and would require a substantially larger battery.

A better way to handle this would probably be to go with a test APS-C camera. Large pixel cameras require humongous processing capabilities on the desktop computer, and with APS-Cs, you could use about the same pixel density with a reduced MP count. This would be about a 51 MP APS-C camera.

 

[c.d.embrey]

The rumored Nikon D600, is rumored not to have a focus motor. This puts it in the D3200 class and below the D7000. No reason for Canon not to make a FF Rebel to compete with the rumored Nikon. Looks like FF may be the new high megapixel.

I have no interest in a FF Rebel , but I would buy an APS-C Mirrorless, if the were good primes available -- I'm not interested in variable aperture Kit Zoomz . Here's hoping

 

[pdirestajr]

It would be cool if Canon created a high end camera system within their EOS system that had changeable backs (sensors)- like medium format systems. Would be nice if we could just upgrade the sensor and update the firmware every few years at a lower cost.

 

[briansquibb]

Why is everyone so hung up on the technolgy in their camera?

At the end of the day it is the IQ that it delivers rather than what it uses to deliver the image.

 

[pakosouthpark]

i'm sure i would welcome a new full frame entry level and cheaper than 5d mk ii! but i dont think i can wait that long (2013) to get a FF camera..

 

[Marsu42]

Once high ISO noise becomes the dominating factor in sensor noise, Canon's sensors are competitive with Sony's.

The question is: How high is "high iso", what difference is there really between Nikon & Canon and how many people need that high iso performance with your average f4 lens when not shooting fast moving object in bad lighting?

While a 5d3 of course is great for weddings and such, I guess the next Nikon generation and after will push their high iso performance, too and thus Canon seems to be on the loosing track. Because as you wrote, 50mp+ is ridiculous for average photogs because the lenses cannot follow and the processing power skyrockets.

A better way to handle this would probably be to go with a test APS-C camera.

Historically, Canon is set on the ff path because their customers have spent their money on ef lenses that are only partially used on aps-c. I guess that's the reason why Canon never showed that much "love" for aps-c lenses: No L marketing, inferior build quality, no weather sealing - the ef-s lenses are there to be phased or go consumer market sooner or later. So I don't think we'll see more mp than Nikon in aps-c from Canon soon.

Why is everyone so hung up on the technolgy in their camera? At the end of the day it is the IQ that it delivers rather than what it uses to deliver the image.

The question is if it's still "safe" to spend thousands and thousands of bucks for Canon lenses when the Nikon competition is backed by Sony and has much more r&d money for their sensors - and this does influence iq very much on the long run.

 

[briansquibb]

Why is everyone so hung up on the technolgy in their camera? At the end of the day it is the IQ that it delivers rather than what it uses to deliver the image.

The question is if it's still "safe" to spend thousands and thousands of bucks for Canon lenses when the Nikon competition is backed by Sony and has much more r&d money for their sensors - and this does influence iq very much on the long run.

I have no inherent brand loyalty.

If I was going to spend thousands and thousands on kit then I would consider a tactical approach ie what is currently available or known to be available rather that what might be.

I have just made some major purchases and yes I did consider what Nikon was offering and worked out the figures. There was little in the reviews that suggested that (for me) that Nikon was much different to Canon, but the budget was significantly lower by staying with Canon, so I stayed.

Puchasing for me is more of a logical process than an emotive process.

In hindsight my puchases worked well for me - I ended up with the 1Ds3 and didn't have to wait for the 5DIII or endure the teething problems, and have a camera that has simillar functionality and at least as good IQ.

 

[birtembuk]

I'm starting to think the future of APS-C will be in mirrorless cameras and they're going to get phased out in the "prosumer" market.

This was already theorized before by some and it certainly sounds like a smart move for a change for Canon to (re)gain a leadership position.

Don't underestimate the power of market forces. I'm sure Canon has had a high MP sensor in development for quite some time now, don't be fooled into thinking they were caught off guard by the D800, I'm sure they knew what Nikon was going to release, but I also think they were caught off guard by it's price point.

Interesting - I wanted to write the exact opposite: While Canon certainly knew what Sony's tech could achieve in a Nikon full frame body, the fact that they are targeting early 2013 for the actual release of their successor and that they strangely produce the 5d2 along the successor 5d3 looks to me like they were caught off guard and now have to start thinking about how to fill the 5d2 successor and high mp gap. Maybe they put all their resources into their video line and took their dlsr position too much for granted.

I believe that also.

 

[Ivar]

From Canon's recent launches, it is obvious that they are trying to build a portfolio around DLSR based movie cams. I would not be surprised to see a 5DC... Perhaps with a much weaker AA filter to improve resolution, better codec... After all, the only real complain about the 5DIII's video capability is the resolving power.

But the biggest complaint is still about the lack of DR improvement. This is what they will take care of first, if they aren't stupid.

i have a bad feeling they will just go crazy with MP 45 and yet with the same old poor DR and zero fps and thus be worse than D800 in every way other than a space eating extra few MP

Unfortunately I think the same. Too late too little with high price - they still plan carefully which features go where, there doesn't seem to be desire to push limits. At this I'm not even sure if Canon is capable of making a decent sensor. On top of all, announced early delivered who knows when.

p.s. there is absolutely nothing wrong with higher prices as far as they match the marketplace reality. Why not pay more for objectively premium product.

 

[JurijTurnsek]

Gotta say, I wouldn't mind a "FF rebel" - I've been shooting 1,6x crop with max 70mm for almost 4 years now and I've yet to feel a sudden urge to go further with mm (and even then, FF 200mm would be my ceiling). We're not all wlidlife/stadium sports photographers - there's lot to be captured in the wide, medium range.

 

[seta666]

I think a cheaper alternative to the 5D mkIII is needed; not everybody needs 61p AF or weather sealing for instance. I think a 1500$ FF is possible nowadays and I wish those nikon D600 rumours are true, because canon will have to do something about it

For instance as a macro shooter I do not need the AF, burst or fancy stuff like video but I would wellcome a couple of stops better DR (which 5D mkIII) does not provide or Hardware ISO 50

Regards

 

[c.d.embrey]

... If Canon were to introduce an entry-level FF camera at that price point then it would get in the way of the 7D2 (if that remained a APS-C.)

So I cannot see the future having any room for a crop-sensor 7D Mark II.

FFFanboys have a hard time realizing that not everyone wants or needs a FF camera! Size and weight are very important to some Pros. And these Pros have even switched to M43 to get rid of unwanted size/weight.

Here are the weights for a few cameras (body only):
Canon 5D3, FF - 30.3 oz.
Canon 7D, APS-C - 28.9 oz.
Canon 60D, APS-C - 23.8 oz. Why would I want anything heavier than a XXD ???
Sony NEX 7, APS-C - 10.3 oz.
Olympus OM-D EM-5, M43 - 13 oz.
Olympus E-P3 - 11.32oz.

WOW!!!, a 20 oz. (1lb. 4 oz.) difference between a NEX 7 and a 5D2 Isn't it about time for Canon to come out with a Pro Mirrorless ???

BTW I rented a 5D3 for a test shoot, nice camera, but too damned heavy.

BTW2 I own a Sony NEX 5n, that I bought to use as a Video Crash Cam. Great video, great stills (blows away Canon APS-C) and this 16.1 Mp APS-C camera only weighs 7.4 oz. . It has no EVF , but that's not needed for a Crash Cam.

 

[briansquibb]

FFFanboys have a hard time realizing that not everyone wants or needs a FF camera! Size and weight are very important to some Pros. And these Pros have even switched to M43 to get rid of unwanted size/weight.

Here are the weights for a few cameras (body only):
Canon 5D3, FF - 30.3 oz.
Canon 7D, APS-C - 28.9 oz.
Canon 60D, APS-C - 23.8 oz. Why would I want anything heavier than a XXD ???
Sony NEX 7, APS-C - 10.3 oz.
Olympus OM-D EM-5, M43 - 13 oz.
Olympus E-P3 - 11.32oz.

WOW!!!, a 20 oz. (1lb. 4 oz.) difference between a NEX 7 and a 5D2 Isn't it about time for Canon to come out with a Pro Mirrorless ???

BTW I rented a 5D3 for a test shoot, nice camera, but too damned heavy.

BTW2 I own a Sony NEX 5n, that I bought to use as a Video Crash Cam. Great video, great stills (blows away Canon APS-C) and this 16.1 Mp APS-C camera only weighs 7.4 oz. . It has no EVF , but that's not needed for a Crash Cam.

Well Sony fanboy, nice to see you on this Canon site. Good luck with sticking a 600mm lens on your NEX5