More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]

[Marsu42]

But I don't see how the fact that the tele lens is built for full frame makes it that much heavier or more expensive. Most of the weight is needed because of the required size of the front element. You might be paying (money and weight) for unneeded extra optics to ensure that the image quality is up to scratch full frame corners, but I think the "bulk" of it largely goes to the necessary large size of a lens that long (even though that one isn't especially fast).

I didn't know so much is dependent on the front element, so that's a bit relieving. However, it would be interesting to know how much tele lenses would cost if they didn't care about corner sharpness and it would still produce the same pictures on aps-c. But in the case of the 70-300L the reviews said they maybe did just that - it's said to be a bit soft in the corners on ff.

One thing is for sure -- you're not the only one who wants a full frame as evidenced by the fairly robust demand. The good news is that there are three generations worth of 5D series bodies to choose from, so there's almost certainly something at a price you can afford.

The bad news is: The combination of the two things you wrote ff body prices are still high, so until an application really needs a ff sensor, I guess I'll continue to buy ef lenses rather than a ff body :-o ... and I really would like to try the 5d2 if I could, it is an older generation than my 60d and the af and auto wb is said to be outdated, I don't know how much that would bother me.

 

[plutonium10]

I just couldn't handle the 5D II's AF system after using the more advanced features of the 7D's 19-point system for the last 2+ years. That's also the one reason I bought 7D instead of 60D.

 

[briansquibb]

I just couldn't handle the 5D II's AF system after using the more advanced features of the 7D's 19-point system for the last 2+ years. That's also the one reason I bought 7D instead of 60D.

Get hold of a 5DIII or a 1D4 and you will wonder how you managed with the 7D's poor AF then ...

 

[plutonium10]

I just couldn't handle the 5D II's AF system after using the more advanced features of the 7D's 19-point system for the last 2+ years. That's also the one reason I bought 7D instead of 60D.

Get hold of a 5DIII or a 1D4 and you will wonder how you managed with the 7D's poor AF then ...

Yeah, too true. I think a 5D mk III may enter my life in the near future... But I'll wait just a month or two and see what happens next in the camera world.

 

[Albi86]

I guess Canon is struggling with Nikon's offer and its price point.

With the 5D3 Canon managed to give event photographers the best low-light shooting instrument on the market, as it is supposed to be coupled with 70-200 L f/2.8 IS USM and the new (a coincidence?) 24-70 L f/2.8. Rumours about new L-grade 50mm and/or 85mm would complete the line-up, so I find them quite likely to be true.

On the other hand, to anyone who is not a pro event photographer, I would suggest to buy D800 and a couple of third-party primes over the 5D3. More MP, more DR, more color depth... less money. Much less.

So what about new FF cameras? Canon is forced to produce a high MP camera to compete (if for nothing else, at least just for the sake of its reputation) with Nikon, but in which price segment will it be? 5D3 is already considerably more expensive than D800, where would you place a higher-end camera? They cannot compete if there is a 1000€ gap in price. Note how Nikon's D3200 forced Canon to rush the release of a 650D, which honestly no one was craving for. Most people still have been buying the 550D over the 600D. A new high-MP FF body should lye in the same price league as D800, and in my opinion Canon at the moment is simply not capable to do so.

Same problem you would have with a entry level FF body. Nowadays you can buy a 5D2 body for about 1700€, but the AF alone keeps me (and many others, I guess) from buying it. The 5D2 looked already "old" in 2009 when the 7D came out with its significant better specs, if Nikon manages to produce a good modern FF camera (24-26 MP, good AF, DR, etc..) and to put it in that price league, again, there will be no competition.

 

[kalmiya]

Same problem you would have with a entry level FF body. Nowadays you can buy a 5D2 body for about 1700€, but the AF alone keeps me (and many others, I guess) from buying it.

So true... And the 5D3's price keeps me from buying that one ^^
A "5D2" with a 'simple' 19 point AF like 7D, for a <2200 price would have my interest

 

[nicku]

Same problem you would have with a entry level FF body. Nowadays you can buy a 5D2 body for about 1700€, but the AF alone keeps me (and many others, I guess) from buying it.

So true... And the 5D3's price keeps me from buying that one ^^
A "5D2" with a 'simple' 19 point AF like 7D, for a <2200 price would have my interest

I will definitely buy a 5Dmk2 (With the same specs, IQ and performance) but with 7D AF system.... i believe $2500 will be a fair price..... And for extra $1000 (5Dmk3) you will get better AF, faster shooting and better low light performance. sounds very plausible for a budget FF camera; don;t mention that canon have to change only the AF system ... not to redesign a new body to compete with nikon budget FF (if will be one).

 

[Albi86]

2500$ is not such a low cost. It's basically how much the 5D2 costed before the 5D3 was announced. At such conditions I would still buy the D800 for 3000$.
Remember that spec-wise Nikon has much more room for manouvre. If their D600 has 24MP and 39 AF points like the D7000, it's a lot less than their D800 but still better than most of what Canon can even think to put on the market. And this would cost no more than 2000-2200$.
If Canon wants to be competitive, they have to take the lower tier at 1800$ or so.

 

[briansquibb]

Same problem you would have with a entry level FF body. Nowadays you can buy a 5D2 body for about 1700€, but the AF alone keeps me (and many others, I guess) from buying it. The 5D2 looked already "old" in 2009 when the 7D came out with its significant better specs,

Have you ever owned a 5DII?

I would think 'better specs' is an interesting comment - perhaps the AF, but the the 5DII was never intended for sports (even though with skill it managed) - as for the picture IQ the 7D was not in the same room. As the picture is all that counts I would suggest then that your 'better specs' doesn't translate into better pictures

 

[rafaelsynths]

Did anyone forget about the canon eos 3d?

 

[Positron]

Yes, I forgot all about that. I think the word "four" sounds like the word "death" in Japanese. T4i anyone?

Thats only the monkier in the US, in the rest of the world it'll be the 650D.

I'd argue that using 2 has some negatives aswell given that its makes it clear that its NOT #1.

I guess we're both wrong. I had in my mind that Japan was also using the Rebel moniker but it's actually Kiss. The Rebel T3i is called the Kiss X5 in Japan. interestingly, the T2i WAS in fact called "Kiss X4" in Japan.

Ah yes I forgot about the Japnese label although even then the 4 is somewhat buried rather than being the main brand the camera is sold on. If there is an issue I'm guessing marketing rather than giant corperate superstition is where it lies.

Just like everyone calls Mac OS X "OS Ex" even though Apple internally calls it "OS Ten", Nikon has made their Japanese marketing clear that it's called the ディーフォア "Dee Foa", and since anyone who's superstitious wouldn't want to make the death allusion anyway, people stick with the canonical name.

Incidentally, though, when I was at a major electronics retailer in Japan, I was shown to one "Dee Nanahyaku" (D700), but a "Faivu Dee Maaku Tsuu" (5D2). I did immediately find it interesting that they rendered it in Japanese for Nikon and English transliteration for Canon, although I think it's the fault of the word "mark" that makes it awkward to say in Japanese. It would end up being rendered as something like 第２、５D "Dai Ni Go Dee", which looks and sounds ridiculous in addition to being reversed relative to the actual name printed on the camera body.

Well, I'm just rambling at this point, but I thought it was interesting.

 

[moreorless]

2500$ is not such a low cost. It's basically how much the 5D2 costed before the 5D3 was announced. At such conditions I would still buy the D800 for 3000$.
Remember that spec-wise Nikon has much more room for manouvre. If their D600 has 24MP and 39 AF points like the D7000, it's a lot less than their D800 but still better than most of what Canon can even think to put on the market. And this would cost no more than 2000-2200$.
If Canon wants to be competitive, they have to take the lower tier at 1800$ or so.

I'd tend to agree with this, the D800 and 5D3 target somewhat different markets but if the 5D mk2 or a reheated version went up agenst a D600 with those specs then Canon are going to loose alot of market share.

The best counter to such a release would I'd say be to offer the rumoured higher MP sensor in a body similar to the 5D mk2(maybe with AF performanced upped a bit) offered at a price below both the 5D mk3 and the D800.

 

[plutonium10]

The ergonomics of the 7D and 5D III bodies are very nice. Any new FF camera would quite likely just use exactly the same shell as the 5D III with different internals. This would also help keep production costs down.

 

[kalmiya]

Same problem you would have with a entry level FF body. Nowadays you can buy a 5D2 body for about 1700€, but the AF alone keeps me (and many others, I guess) from buying it.

So true... And the 5D3's price keeps me from buying that one ^^
A "5D2" with a 'simple' 19 point AF like 7D, for a <2200 price would have my interest

I will definitely buy a 5Dmk2 (With the same specs, IQ and performance) but with 7D AF system.... i believe $2500 will be a fair price..... And for extra $1000 (5Dmk3) you will get better AF, faster shooting and better low light performance. sounds very plausible for a budget FF camera; don;t mention that canon have to change only the AF system ... not to redesign a new body to compete with nikon budget FF (if will be one).

Believe me, I'm tempted - but I know I'm 'unhappy' with the AF of my 550D - and asking around in this forum gave the conclusion that the 5D2 has the same AF as the 550D...

So, spending 1800 euro and getting a (great) camera with an AF which I'm not thrilled about doesn't seem right. It should be at least 'acceptable AF". On the other hand, paying 3500 for a top-of-the-line AF is the other extreme... as a hobbyist that's an unacceptable price ( not complaining , but it's the way it is in my specific situation).

So I'm looking for 5D2 with improved AF at a slightly increased price point - but if the market doesn't offer what I want, then that's the way it is. I'll happily use the hardware I own (with it's limitations) and see what the future brings. I'm not in a rush

 

[grahamsz]

I will definitely buy a 5Dmk2 (With the same specs, IQ and performance) but with 7D AF system.... i believe $2500 will be a fair price..... And for extra $1000 (5Dmk3) you will get better AF, faster shooting and better low light performance. sounds very plausible for a budget FF camera; don;t mention that canon have to change only the AF system ... not to redesign a new body to compete with nikon budget FF (if will be one).

I find it very hard to believe that the 5D2 will be a long term solution. It makes no sense for Canon to manufacture both a 21 and 22MP FF sensor. I suspect they'll discontinue the 5d2 in favor of an entry level version of the 5d3.

 

[K-amps]

... entry level version of the 5d3.

5D Kiss ?

 

[Marsu42]

ard to believe that the 5D2 will be a long term solution. It makes no sense for Canon to manufacture both a 21 and 22MP FF sensor. I suspect they'll discontinue the 5d2 in favor of an entry level version of the 5d3.

... but looking at the 5d3 stock at least in Germany, Canon might at continue to produce 5d2s for a while. But I absolutely agree: Naming the 5d3 as it is clearly implies that they'll dump the predecessor sooner or later.

 

[elflord]

Same problem you would have with a entry level FF body. Nowadays you can buy a 5D2 body for about 1700€, but the AF alone keeps me (and many others, I guess) from buying it. The 5D2 looked already "old" in 2009 when the 7D came out with its significant better specs,

I have no problem with autofocus on my 5D Mark II, maybe that means I'm doing something wrong ???

Despite this woefully inadequate autofocus, it was a popular SLR for event photography, weddings, portraits, and landscapes. It wasn't the best sports or bif photographers camera, but then it was never really marketed for that. If autofocus was really important for wedding photography, the market could have bought the D700 and got a more advanced AF system at a comparable price.

There are several applications for which one shot autofocus with the center point works really well. I really wouldn't want to allow the camera to choose the AF point for most of the shooting I do, because I seldom have enough depth of field for that to work very well (if I did have enough dof for indiscriminate selection of focal point to work, I could also get the focus near enough with single point / one shot)

I suppose it could be due to ignorance on my part as I don't use the camera for anything that requires top of the line AF, but I have the sneaking suspicion that many of the AF complainers are unfamiliar with the AF system on the 5D -- the complaints are generally short on specifics. What subject matter, with what mode/settings are they shooting in that fails to deliver results ? What do they expect from the AF system on their cameras?

 

[elflord]

So I'm looking for 5D2 with improved AF at a slightly increased price point - but if the market doesn't offer what I want, then that's the way it is. I'll happily use the hardware I own (with it's limitations) and see what the future brings. I'm not in a rush

What is your reason for wanting a full frame ? 7D seems like a more natural choice if you're taking a lot of BIF pictures.

 

[briansquibb]

So I'm looking for 5D2 with improved AF at a slightly increased price point - but if the market doesn't offer what I want, then that's the way it is. I'll happily use the hardware I own (with it's limitations) and see what the future brings. I'm not in a rush

What is your reason for wanting a full frame ? 7D seems like a more natural choice if you're taking a lot of BIF pictures.

Doing BIF with FF is possible but requires a very different set of equipment and budget than with a crop.

An option might be a used 1D4, but even that requires (I would suggest) a minimum of a 500 f/4, whereas a 7D would be very reasonable with a 400 f/5.6