My (seemingly) never ending Focus woes ... BIF advice needed

[bdunbar79]

Re: My never ending Focus woes with my 5DMK3

I did all that stuff. It still doesn't work that well. My cases aren't in good light; mine are in bad lighting. I concede that I may be asking the camera to do something unreasonable. Even with cross-type only points in AI Servo mode, even though the diver is closer to me than anything, down throughout the dive the AF point will still go back and hit the wall, for some unknown reason, at least twice. The reason is because the wall is grayish/white and is lighted up more than the diver. This will confuse any AF system. To the OP, you have to pay attention to back-lighting too.

Good discussion so far.

If you have manually selected the AF point and are subject tracking, there's no way for the camera to switch the AF points regardless of the contrast. It will try to focus using your selected point.

Who said I selected one point? If I remember correctly, I stated I was using zone with only cross types selected, auto AF point selection.

 

[bdunbar79]

Re: My never ending Focus woes with my 5DMK3

Yep it you have a high contrast horizontal object in the background and an AF point is sensitive to that it will take priority over the low contrast vertical edge of the diver. I either use spot AF or ALL AF points and lock using the center point initially and let the AF system track the edges for me.

I'll add it's still not 100% unless I use center point only and track on the swim shorts.

1DX does the same thing. I shot a diving meet last night and zone AF, no matter which tracking case, couldn't lock on the diver all the way through. It would focus on stupid things in the background every 3rd shot. I was in extremely low light, however, and that no doubt contributed to this.

YES!

 

[christianronnel]

Re: My never ending Focus woes with my 5DMK3

At about 19 minutes in the first B&H video it says for AI Servo that the camera starts to track with the CENTER AF point and if the subject moves off center the camera now uses the outer AF points to continue to follow it.

Personally, I prefer to track the subject manually rather than relying on the camera to switch AF points. I seem to get better result that way. Most of us naturally track subjects the same way anyway, so why not just choose a fixed AF point? Even the presenter stated that Auto AF point selection is convenient for some situations but with lots of limitations. I think sports shooters should really practice selecting their AF points and subject tracking.

Who said I selected one point? If I remember correctly, I stated I was using zone with only cross types selected, auto AF point selection.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was actually suggesting to manually select AF point next time instead of auto AF selection.

 

[ddl]

Re: My never ending Focus woes with my 5DMK3

I track manually with the camera as well rather than relying on the focus points to follow the subject.

I posted this as I thought it might help the OP with his problem.

 

[bdunbar79]

Re: My never ending Focus woes with my 5DMK3

At about 19 minutes in the first B&H video it says for AI Servo that the camera starts to track with the CENTER AF point and if the subject moves off center the camera now uses the outer AF points to continue to follow it.

Personally, I prefer to track the subject manually rather than relying on the camera to switch AF points. I seem to get better result that way. Most of us naturally track subjects the same way anyway, so why not just choose a fixed AF point? Even the presenter stated that Auto AF point selection is convenient for some situations but with lots of limitations. I think sports shooters should really practice selecting their AF points and subject tracking.

Who said I selected one point? If I remember correctly, I stated I was using zone with only cross types selected, auto AF point selection.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was actually suggesting to manually select AF point next time instead of auto AF selection.

Oh ok, sorry for the confusion.

Here's another problem I thought of. Suppose you are again shooting swimming. You want to shoot the swimmers at the start of the race of a backstroke race. You focus on the back of the head of the swimmer, who is facing away from you. The "beep" goes and you want to shoot the swimmer from release all the way back and into the water. Since the swimmer's head will come back towards you rapidly, I have not been able to get this sequence all in focus with a burst mode, because the swimmer moves so quickly so it appears the AF cannot keep up. Perhaps this is another impossible task, but it's interesting that I tried to do it, with failure of course .

 

[christianronnel]

Re: My never ending Focus woes with my 5DMK3

Here's another problem I thought of. Suppose you are again shooting swimming. You want to shoot the swimmers at the start of the race of a backstroke race. You focus on the back of the head of the swimmer, who is facing away from you. The "beep" goes and you want to shoot the swimmer from release all the way back and into the water. Since the swimmer's head will come back towards you rapidly, I have not been able to get this sequence all in focus with a burst mode, because the swimmer moves so quickly so it appears the AF cannot keep up. Perhaps this is another impossible task, but it's interesting that I tried to do it, with failure of course .

I'm not exactly sure, but with back-stroke, the head never goes under water, right? Is that a similar scenario as a runner running towards you? If it is, I have been able to capture runners well with just the settings I described earlier, in AI servo and with the focus point selected where I think their head would be.

Here's a cheetah running towards me. I took it with my measly 70-300L so subject in the frame is far too tiny to post but most of the images in the entire series look in focus. That cheetah was clocked at just over 50MPH on that run, surely a swimmer would be slower. I don't know how hard would it be to track if the lens is at f2.8.

m a j a n i @ 50+ miles/hour by Christian Ronnel, on Flickr

Africa's spotted sprinter by Christian Ronnel, on Flickr

 

[bdunbar79]

Re: My never ending Focus woes with my 5DMK3

Excellent shots!!

I didn't explain my backstroke situation clearly, as I reread it and I couldn't even figure out what I was talking about. My problem was at the start of the race, where the swimmers are stationary, and then when the gun goes off, they quickly "snap" back, flip, and head into the water. I was trying to lock focus on the back of the head, stationary, then the gun goes off and they flip back rapidly, and was not able to keep focus since they flipped back towards me.

Your settings work really well for backstroke swimmers, yes, during the race.

 

[christianronnel]

Re: My never ending Focus woes with my 5DMK3

Thanks!

I guess I'm still confused or I really don't know what I'm talking about. If I remember correctly, with back-stroke, at the beginning of the race the swimmers are already facing the wall. Depending on which end of the pool you may be located, they either start facing you (closest) or you have the back of their heads (far end). If I understand you correctly, you are on the far side of the pool. In that case you focused on the back of the head and when they kick, you see the top of the head to their chin depending on the height you were shooting. In that case I'm not sure if there's a difference between focusing on the back of the head and track to something like a face. My guess would be that it should be the same. If you are located near the starting point (I'm not sure if that's even allowed) then I can understand what you mean when they flip and kick when they reach the other end of the pool. In that case, I'm not sure I'll do anything different. I must admit I'm curious now. It would be cool to shoot a swimming competition. I've only assisted on cycling and running races.

 

[bdunbar79]

Re: My never ending Focus woes with my 5DMK3

Yeah, I hadn't really done any swimming before either. I was straight down the pool at the opposite end of the swimmers. I wasn't allowed near the start due to F.A.T. at the start and finish line. I'm going to look at my shots and think about this some more. Thanks.

 

[bjd]

Re: My never ending Focus woes with my 5DMK3

There's a very good video on B&H Learn in Depth on Canon AF. It comes in 3 parts.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/indepth/photography/tips-solutions/look-canon-autofocus-system-part-1

It explained to me what each Focus points looks for & what is special about Cross-type points. How to use servo etc

I think the problem is that the car has no contrast points for the AF to lock on to. Or more specifically aiming all the focus points at the car is not the right way. You have to aim one of the little boxes at a point with contrast that contains either a horizontal or vertical line.

Plus you have to give the AF system a moment to focus & lock the target.

HI, thanks for the link, I'll certainly be studying the videos today.
As I have focus problems with BIF I tried the, what I hoped would be a simpler, situation for the camera with the moving cars. I only posted a few shots here, but as the car moves across the center of shot, I had assumed that one of the center points would lock on somewhere (as various parts, lines etc. cross) and it would at least follow from then on towards the left of frame.
Having the cars cross at an angle to me and not at 90° would I thought have given the Camera the time needed. We'll see.
Thanks to everyone who contributed here.
Cheers Brian

 

[bjd]

Re: My never ending Focus woes with my 5DMK3

it seems like you forgot an IMPORTANT THING

pls review your manual at page 73 and page 77

61 point automatic selection AF both in A+ and AI Servo Modes

dont worry, there's nothing wrong with your 5D3, just wrong user settings.

we all experience it - one way or the other.

Wife says we can't afford a new user, so its up to me still.
My manual is in German so not totally certain what points you are referring to as the page numbers may be different.
I watched all three videos and read the book (EOS_5D_Mark_III_AF_setting_guidebook.pdf) again. With AI Servo AF with all 61 points used, it says "Shooting started by pinpointing focus on the leader of a cycling road race with a manually selected AF point". I'm still unclear on the "manually selected AF point", the large picture on page 53 shows 61 points in use.
Just testing getting the camera to focus on a stationary object indoors, it will do that with one of the outer points. Selecting the point or points it uses on its own.
When shooting BIF, usually pretty small ones in our garden, I find I need to anticipate a lot in which direction they will move, for example when taking off. So I will try to track them as much as possible, but I'm hoping for some assistance from the 61 points to get/keep the bird sharp as long as its under an AF point.

Anyway thanks to everyone for the help and patience.
Cheers Brian

 

[East Wind Photography]

Re: My never ending Focus woes with my 5DMK3

You can go to usa.canon.com and download the English version of the manual for free.

it seems like you forgot an IMPORTANT THING

pls review your manual at page 73 and page 77

61 point automatic selection AF both in A+ and AI Servo Modes

dont worry, there's nothing wrong with your 5D3, just wrong user settings.

we all experience it - one way or the other.

Wife says we can't afford a new user, so its up to me still.
My manual is in German so not totally certain what points you are referring to as the page numbers may be different.
I watched all three videos and read the book (EOS_5D_Mark_III_AF_setting_guidebook.pdf) again. With AI Servo AF with all 61 points used, it says "Shooting started by pinpointing focus on the leader of a cycling road race with a manually selected AF point". I'm still unclear on the "manually selected AF point", the large picture on page 53 shows 61 points in use.
Just testing getting the camera to focus on a stationary object indoors, it will do that with one of the outer points. Selecting the point or points it uses on its own.
When shooting BIF, usually pretty small ones in our garden, I find I need to anticipate a lot in which direction they will move, for example when taking off. So I will try to track them as much as possible, but I'm hoping for some assistance from the 61 points to get/keep the bird sharp as long as its under an AF point.

Anyway thanks to everyone for the help and patience.
Cheers Brian

 

[neuroanatomist]

Re: My never ending Focus woes with my 5DMK3

With AI Servo AF with all 61 points used, it says "Shooting started by pinpointing focus on the leader of a cycling road race with a manually selected AF point". I'm still unclear on the "manually selected AF point", the large picture on page 53 shows 61 points in use.

In Servo with 61-pt auto, use the multicontroller (joystick) to select an AF point before you start focusing (pressing AF-ON or shutter half-press). The AF system will lock onto the subject at that selected point and track it (depending on your settings).

 

[Mr Bean]

Re: My never ending Focus woes with my 5DMK3

When shooting BIF, usually pretty small ones in our garden, I find I need to anticipate a lot in which direction they will move, for example when taking off. So I will try to track them as much as possible, but I'm hoping for some assistance from the 61 points to get/keep the bird sharp as long as its under an AF point.

I'm going through the same hoops and learning curves with BIF. I've only started playing with the 5D m3 with BIF over the past month and its been interesting

My first example of a BIF pic tracked beautifully, with the camera set to AI Servo Focus, I managed to track the background (just in front of the bird) successfully for at least 6 shots

I put it down to my over tracking to start with, meaning the camera "thought" I wanted to focus 2m in front. Oh well, at least it's not film

 

[bjd]

Re: My never ending Focus woes with my 5DMK3

You can go to usa.canon.com and download the English version of the manual for free.

it seems like you forgot an IMPORTANT THING

pls review your manual at page 73 and page 77

61 point automatic selection AF both in A+ and AI Servo Modes

dont worry, there's nothing wrong with your 5D3, just wrong user settings.

we all experience it - one way or the other.

That was a very good suggestion. Now I can immediately find the things you all were talking about in the manual. Still no real sucess though. I hope to get out tomorrow with the camera and try some more.
Cheers Brian

 

[Dylan777]

Re: My never ending Focus woes with my 5DMK3

With AI Servo AF with all 61 points used, it says "Shooting started by pinpointing focus on the leader of a cycling road race with a manually selected AF point". I'm still unclear on the "manually selected AF point", the large picture on page 53 shows 61 points in use.

In Servo with 61-pt auto, use the multicontroller (joystick) to select an AF point before you start focusing (pressing AF-ON or shutter half-press). The AF system will lock onto the subject at that selected point and track it (depending on your settings).

+1....When my kids running around, I use 61-pt auto in servo very often.

You must lock-on the subject first and do not release that shutter until you ready take pictures.

To me, case 2-6 are like presets. Therefore, I'm using case1 and set it to my shooting style)

My setting: Case-1
1. Tracking Sen 0 (I only want the camera to track selected subject and ignore others)
2. Accel/Decel Tracking 1 (sometime to zero, since my 4yrs is not that super fast)
3. AF pt auto switching 1

It works everytime

 

[Skulker]

Re: My never ending Focus woes with my 5DMK3

When you get it right it is quite amazing.

with the full area selected for focusing, you then select were you want it to start. Then it focus on that area and follows it around, it is programed to notice faces and eyes.

Its quite outstandingly good. 8)

 

[Hobby Shooter]

Re: My never ending Focus woes with my 5DMK3

Hi ddl,
it looks suspiciously like that. But then I have to ask "what is the manually selected AF point?". In my case it always tries to select a focus point at the center and I cannot get it to focus using one of the outer points.
In A+ I can get it to focus using the rightmost column of points at 1/250th and F5.0, if I switch to M and set 1/250th and F5.6 then I can get the fourth row from the right to focus. I tried using evaluative metering too instead of spot, but that doesn't change anything.
Strange

Cheers

First of all, having the camera in M, Av, Tv or even P mode has nothing to do with AF. Those modes deal with exposures. You can set the focus point with any of those modes. Secondly, in A+ modes, you are letting the camera do all the decisions for you, both the exposure and what to focus on. The AF cases wasn't designed for that style of shooting, if you call that a style at all.

For shooting birds in flight (or divers), I suggest to change your Selectable AF point to only cross-type. That is located on the 4th section of the AF tab menu. Just know that if you do this, the camera will only allow the cross-type points available for the attached lens and is normally dictated by the lens' maximum aperture. With this selected, change the way the AI Servo works. Go to the 2nd section of the AF tab. Set the AI Servo 1st image priority to focus. Set the AI Servo 2nd image priority to focus. Now you can play with the "AF cases" if you want. I personally leave it on Case 1. I don't see any practical difference in any of those "Cases."

As for the red dot/focus point flashing, this is irrelevant on AI servo mode. If you want to see where you are focusing, you can set the AF point display during focus on 5th section of the AF tab to Selected (pre-AF, focused).

Remember, none of these will do you any good if you're shooting on the green mode.

I did all that stuff. It still doesn't work that well. My cases aren't in good light; mine are in bad lighting. I concede that I may be asking the camera to do something unreasonable. Even with cross-type only points in AI Servo mode, even though the diver is closer to me than anything, down throughout the dive the AF point will still go back and hit the wall, for some unknown reason, at least twice. The reason is because the wall is grayish/white and is lighted up more than the diver. This will confuse any AF system. To the OP, you have to pay attention to back-lighting too.

Good discussion so far.

I sometimes shoot golf with my friends, I got a tip from Bosman a couple of months ago to lock on the golfer and then switch to manual so the camera doesn't try to track the club or arms moving. This for your swim meet. I wouldn't dare to give you tips as you're a much more accomplished photographer, I'm more asking you if that would have been relevant in the swim meet? At least if you're shooting from the same spot. This is assuming you shot diving and not swimming.

 

[bjd]

Re: My never ending Focus woes with my 5DMK3

You can go to usa.canon.com and download the English version of the manual for free.

it seems like you forgot an IMPORTANT THING

pls review your manual at page 73 and page 77

61 point automatic selection AF both in A+ and AI Servo Modes

dont worry, there's nothing wrong with your 5D3, just wrong user settings.

we all experience it - one way or the other.

That was a very good suggestion. Now I can immediately find the things you all were talking about in the manual. Still no real sucess though. I hope to get out tomorrow with the camera and try some more.
Cheers Brian

Hi,
well I had far better results yesterday, despite pretty poor light. Still had a few shots I couldn't explain, 4 focus points on a slow moving car, but the car itself completely out of focus. But I even did get a shot of a flying duck in focus in pretty bad light, taken a bit by surprise too. Using 61 point auto-selection.
Never had the points on a bird in a sutuation like that up till now.
Cheers Brian

70-200 F2.8L IS II USM at 200mm, F6.7, 1000th/Sec, ISO800.

 

[bjd]

Re: My never ending Focus woes with my 5DMK3

Hi,
well I had far better results yesterday, despite pretty poor light. Still had a few shots I couldn't explain, 4 focus points on a slow moving car, but the car itself completely out of focus. But I even did get a shot of a flying duck in focus in pretty bad light, taken a bit by surprise too. Using 61 point auto-selection.
Never had the points on a bird in a sutuation like that up till now.
Cheers Brian

70-200 F2.8L IS II USM at 200mm, F6.7, 1000th/Sec, ISO800.

And built this out of it. I guess my next Lens will be something with a 400 in it. 200mm doesn't go a long way.
Cheers Brian