necessity of photography school

[awinphoto]

Edit- I do consider photography a form of art and when I said learn, I meant more than just the tech aspect.

Learning the tech side of it would be very educational and would be helpful if you wanted to be a camera salesman. As a photographer I think it is useless information unless you know how you can apply the information in your vision.

I would prefer the artsie fartsie classes over the technical ones. It is easy for me as a gear head to look at all the data and figure out how things work, I can get that by reading, research and the internet. Putting it all together in a vision and creating a beautiful picture, I find that a bit tougher for my analytical mind.

Not as useless as you would think... Think of it like this... Your shooting a couple outdoors, open sun, you set your exposure... all of a sudden, a cloud comes overhead... you need to instinctively know to compensate... is it 1 stop or 2? Is it a thick light killing cloud or a thin softbox style cloud... Then you go into an open shade... what affect does that have not only on exposure but color? Maybe you want to throw on a polarizer... maybe a sun filter... 1/3 stop or 1/2... maybe you switch lenses to a macro lenses to do artsie fartsie shots of your clients eyes... your macro so your losing light... you need to know to compensate... This basic stuff is stuff a lot of "pros" miss on a daily occurrence... this is the stuff you get hammered into your head from day 1 and this is what will be the difference in if you get "that shot" or you dont... It will make the difference if your considered a shoot and burner or highly regarding professional commanding top dollar... Sometimes it does matter... Technical stuff is necessary, but it isn't everything...

 

[Larry]

[=Plato the Wise =]

Isn't that redundant? ???

 

[PackLight]

Edit- I do consider photography a form of art and when I said learn, I meant more than just the tech aspect.

Learning the tech side of it would be very educational and would be helpful if you wanted to be a camera salesman. As a photographer I think it is useless information unless you know how you can apply the information in your vision.

I would prefer the artsie fartsie classes over the technical ones. It is easy for me as a gear head to look at all the data and figure out how things work, I can get that by reading, research and the internet. Putting it all together in a vision and creating a beautiful picture, I find that a bit tougher for my analytical mind.

Not as useless as you would think... Think of it like this... Your shooting a couple outdoors, open sun, you set your exposure... all of a sudden, a cloud comes overhead... you need to instinctively know to compensate... is it 1 stop or 2? Is it a thick light killing cloud or a thin softbox style cloud... Then you go into an open shade... what affect does that have not only on exposure but color? Maybe you want to throw on a polarizer... maybe a sun filter... 1/3 stop or 1/2... maybe you switch lenses to a macro lenses to do artsie fartsie shots of your clients eyes... your macro so your losing light... you need to know to compensate... This basic stuff is stuff a lot of "pros" miss on a daily occurrence... this is the stuff you get hammered into your head from day 1 and this is what will be the difference in if you get "that shot" or you dont... It will make the difference if your considered a shoot and burner or highly regarding professional commanding top dollar... Sometimes it does matter... Technical stuff is necessary, but it isn't everything...

Well I think your comments fall under the last part of the sentence which says "unless you can apply the information in your vision". But the techie stuff runs deeper than this on CR and often revolves around things such as sensor and lens comparisons and how they work. Some things are nice to know, but you need to ask yourself how does this apply to what I want to do?

 

[robbymack]

I wouldn't say school is unnecessary however school simply provides you an avenue for learning. I don't think anything can replace simply shooting and being critiqued. For that school is great but not something you couldn't pick up through several local venues like photo clubs, other working pros, and of course the Internet. Are some better than others, sure, but do t dilude yourself into thinking school is the only answer. Since this is only a hobby for most of us the easiest way is to just put yourself out there. Find a local pro who's work you like and see if you can pick his brain, maybe offer to help in his studio (for free) from time to time. If your into event see if you can score a few second shooting roles. I guess my point is there are plenty of ways to learn. Don't get trapped by just one.

 

[Caps18]

I know enough to l know that there is a lot of things I don't know. And, I've looked at enough photo books to realize that it takes a special eye to look at something and 'see' the photo from a different angle or framing.

The classes like DSLR camera controls, software post-processing, studio lighting, wedding, landscape, etc. would all have details that I don't know and could learn. But, even with a bunch of classes, it takes practice (and being in the right locations) to get really good.

 

[awinphoto]

Edit- I do consider photography a form of art and when I said learn, I meant more than just the tech aspect.

Learning the tech side of it would be very educational and would be helpful if you wanted to be a camera salesman. As a photographer I think it is useless information unless you know how you can apply the information in your vision.

I would prefer the artsie fartsie classes over the technical ones. It is easy for me as a gear head to look at all the data and figure out how things work, I can get that by reading, research and the internet. Putting it all together in a vision and creating a beautiful picture, I find that a bit tougher for my analytical mind.

Not as useless as you would think... Think of it like this... Your shooting a couple outdoors, open sun, you set your exposure... all of a sudden, a cloud comes overhead... you need to instinctively know to compensate... is it 1 stop or 2? Is it a thick light killing cloud or a thin softbox style cloud... Then you go into an open shade... what affect does that have not only on exposure but color? Maybe you want to throw on a polarizer... maybe a sun filter... 1/3 stop or 1/2... maybe you switch lenses to a macro lenses to do artsie fartsie shots of your clients eyes... your macro so your losing light... you need to know to compensate... This basic stuff is stuff a lot of "pros" miss on a daily occurrence... this is the stuff you get hammered into your head from day 1 and this is what will be the difference in if you get "that shot" or you dont... It will make the difference if your considered a shoot and burner or highly regarding professional commanding top dollar... Sometimes it does matter... Technical stuff is necessary, but it isn't everything...

Well I think your comments fall under the last part of the sentence which says "unless you can apply the information in your vision". But the techie stuff runs deeper than this on CR and often revolves around things such as sensor and lens comparisons and how they work. Some things are nice to know, but you need to ask yourself how does this apply to what I want to do?

Fair enough... you have to have the vision and apply the technique to get the shot... I'm sure ansel adams would not be nearly as infamous if he made mistakes like missing exposures due to environment conditions... With that said, as a working photographer, from shooting a wedding, lighting is always changing, and you realize the couple rarely remembers the day because it goes by like a blur, so they rely on you for their memories... you cannot miss shots... and you would be surprised how commonplace that is... In commercial shots, if an art director, who is on scene, see's an out-take and it isn't up to snuff, you could be cut and replaced in a heartbeat... your just a dollar sign to them... for what I do, this stuff is VERY relevant in every day shooting... and dont think this is one of the things i exploit when i market to new clients... Do you want a photographer that gets the shot every time, or someone who wont... it is what it is...

 

[PackLight]

I'm sure ansel adams would not be nearly as infamous if he made mistakes like missing exposures due to environment conditions...

"Twelve significant photographs in any one year is a good crop."
Ansel Adams

I am sure he had a few bad exposures.
I wonder what he would have said about DxO scores. :

 

[bvukich]

It's funny how hindsight works... before school, I thought I was pretty decent... maybe a 6-7... I developed my own film, dark room, etc... but after school, I realized i was no where near where I thought I was when first started and was closer to a 2-3... And now, being out of school for so long, I have grown since the digital revolution and all the advances in technology... Every time I think I'm a 9-10, something new comes out, a new facet in technology occurs, a new AF system, a new learning curve occurs... The more I learn, the more I know I need to keep learning...

What you've observed about your own photographic progression is a very real thing, and has been studied and written about numerous times. The less someone knows about a subject the less accurately they can judge their own skill/knowledge in that subject. It's the old "you don't know what you don't know".

 

[Chuck Alaimo]

Edit- I do consider photography a form of art and when I said learn, I meant more than just the tech aspect.

Learning the tech side of it would be very educational and would be helpful if you wanted to be a camera salesman. As a photographer I think it is useless information unless you know how you can apply the information in your vision.

I would prefer the artsie fartsie classes over the technical ones. It is easy for me as a gear head to look at all the data and figure out how things work, I can get that by reading, research and the internet. Putting it all together in a vision and creating a beautiful picture, I find that a bit tougher for my analytical mind.

Not as useless as you would think... Think of it like this... Your shooting a couple outdoors, open sun, you set your exposure... all of a sudden, a cloud comes overhead... you need to instinctively know to compensate... is it 1 stop or 2? Is it a thick light killing cloud or a thin softbox style cloud... Then you go into an open shade... what affect does that have not only on exposure but color? Maybe you want to throw on a polarizer... maybe a sun filter... 1/3 stop or 1/2... maybe you switch lenses to a macro lenses to do artsie fartsie shots of your clients eyes... your macro so your losing light... you need to know to compensate... This basic stuff is stuff a lot of "pros" miss on a daily occurrence... this is the stuff you get hammered into your head from day 1 and this is what will be the difference in if you get "that shot" or you dont... It will make the difference if your considered a shoot and burner or highly regarding professional commanding top dollar... Sometimes it does matter... Technical stuff is necessary, but it isn't everything...

Well I think your comments fall under the last part of the sentence which says "unless you can apply the information in your vision". But the techie stuff runs deeper than this on CR and often revolves around things such as sensor and lens comparisons and how they work. Some things are nice to know, but you need to ask yourself how does this apply to what I want to do?

Fair enough... you have to have the vision and apply the technique to get the shot... I'm sure ansel adams would not be nearly as infamous if he made mistakes like missing exposures due to environment conditions... With that said, as a working photographer, from shooting a wedding, lighting is always changing, and you realize the couple rarely remembers the day because it goes by like a blur, so they rely on you for their memories... you cannot miss shots... and you would be surprised how commonplace that is... In commercial shots, if an art director, who is on scene, see's an out-take and it isn't up to snuff, you could be cut and replaced in a heartbeat... your just a dollar sign to them... for what I do, this stuff is VERY relevant in every day shooting... and dont think this is one of the things i exploit when i market to new clients... Do you want a photographer that gets the shot every time, or someone who wont... it is what it is...

I think it's all about how we individually learn. Some need that school based, beat it into you or you won't learn it method. But if your a driven, if you actually want to learn - things like gauging the changing lighting are totally learnable just by shooting regular, analyzing what your doing - making mistakes but being open enough to learn from the mistakes - whther it be going home, reviewing seeing oddities then reading articles, then going out the next day - or having an instructor beat it into your head. So i guess it would really depend on the person, how do they learn best?

 

[pdirestajr]

I'm sure ansel adams would not be nearly as infamous if he made mistakes like missing exposures due to environment conditions...

"Infamous"? Sorry, pet peeve of mine.

 

[PackLight]

I'm sure ansel adams would not be nearly as infamous if he made mistakes like missing exposures due to environment conditions...

"Infamous"? Sorry, pet peeve of mine.

Miss use, but;

Sorry, the internet Grammar Police have always been a pet peeve of mine.

 

[natureshots]

And from 1 to 10, where would you say you were at before and then after 1 = not knowing you can take off the lens on a slr. 10 = Neuroanatomist

Edit- I do consider photography a form of art and when I said learn, I meant more than just the tech aspect.

Your scale should reflect that edit. No disrespect meant to Neuroanatomist but more like...

1 = not knowing you can take off the lens on a slr. 1000 = Mann, Friedlander, Avedon, Leibovitz, Cartier-Bresson... etc

...and many of them never went to "school".

You forgot Ken Rockwell.

 

[7enderbender]

A few photography school related questions.

for those who went to school, do you feel like you learned a great amount, or was it more of a business decision to have a diploma.

And from 1 to 10, where would you say you were at before and then after 1 = not knowing you can take off the lens on a slr. 10 = Neuroanatomist

And lastly, could you have learned the same from the internet and experienced friends?

Edit- I do consider photography a form of art and when I said learn, I meant more than just the tech aspect.

I don't know from first-hand experience how things play out but here are my thoughts as a side-business photographer with a full-time "day job". I'm a strong believer in education. And I used to buy into degrees (literally and figuratively speaking). And there is something to be said about degrees. They can open doors. They can help you structure your education. But ultimately you're responsible for what you know. There are people who make it through well regarded programs without ever really figuring stuff out for them. Others may get the maximum out of there hard earned money and multiply it later.

So what do you need to learn to run a successful photo business? One would hope a good baseline understanding of the technical aspects of photography. Honestly, I think you can get 90% of that for free (not considering time and materials here). Then there is knowledge about "arts" in imagery in general. Might be worth taking a few classes for that I suppose to get the first hand input from a good teacher or other mentor.
And then there is the business in "photo business". In my observation that's where a lot of photographers lack. Read the good (!) books on pricing theory and throw away everything that uses the words "cost plus markup" anywhere. Take marketing classes and such. See what your local small business associations etc offer for free. Find a mentor at the local chamber of commerce who may not be in any related line of business. You get the idea. If anything look for joint degrees that don't just focus on how to take pictures and set up lights but provide other management skills.

I have an MBA from a reputable business school. I like to think that it has paid off but I can't prove that 100%. My wife used to be a teacher and we now homeschools our children. So it's fair to say that my views on institutionalized education has changed over time.

The most successful people I know run their own businesses and had rather colorful educational paths in related fields but not necessarily in a "trained as XYZ" way.

 

[pdirestajr]

I'm sure ansel adams would not be nearly as infamous if he made mistakes like missing exposures due to environment conditions...

"Infamous"? Sorry, pet peeve of mine.

Miss use, but;

Sorry, the internet Grammar Police have always been a pet peeve of mine.

Haha, Fair enough. Just having some fun.

 

[Plato the Wise]

[=Plato the Wise =]

Isn't that redundant? ???

Plato the Wise is not redundant. Plato is a person - or a noun - and he is wise - or the adjective that describes the noun. Besides, no one ever uses that name because most people don't even know who Plato is. As a result, I don't have a silly name, such as Canon_Shooter11562738.

 

[distant.star]

.
These are the kinds of things I kept thinking as I read this thread. In addition to basic critical thinking, the greatest power of formal education is to enlighten you about everything you DO NOT know. A good school cannot teach anyone all they need to know, but you sure better come out of a school knowing everything you need to be working on. You should have an overview of your field that enables you to know where to put your everyday learning energies. This is especially true of photography as your learning will take place throughout your lifetime.

It's funny how hindsight works... before school, I thought I was pretty decent... maybe a 6-7... I developed my own film, dark room, etc... but after school, I realized i was no where near where I thought I was when first started and was closer to a 2-3... And now, being out of school for so long, I have grown since the digital revolution and all the advances in technology... Every time I think I'm a 9-10, something new comes out, a new facet in technology occurs, a new AF system, a new learning curve occurs... The more I learn, the more I know I need to keep learning...

What you've observed about your own photographic progression is a very real thing, and has been studied and written about numerous times. The less someone knows about a subject the less accurately they can judge their own skill/knowledge in that subject. It's the old "you don't know what you don't know".

 

[Plato the Wise]

I don't have a photography degree, but I do have a BFA from the School of Visual Arts (SVA) in painting and sculpture. Photography was part of our curriculum and I learned a lot in the classes.

In fact, many of the disciplines we now work on digitally in photoshop have their roots in traditional darkroom techniques. The tools and filters at times are even named after the original techniques.

Not to mention the art of photography that is outside of the technique itself that is way more important. Composition, color theory, creative thinking and problem solving to name a few.

Could you learn all of that on your own? Possibly - but then again you could learn any discipline on your own. It might take you a lifetime to learn what you could learn in 4 years of a BFA photography program.

If you are just looking for continuing education classes, most community colleges, universities, and art colleges do offer classes. And like someone stated earlier, you will have access to equipment that you wouldn't normally be exposed to.

Hope that helps.

+100

I also went to SVA and got a BFA majoring in illustration. Never turned on a computer or shot a frame of film (even though I took a darkroom class) in 4 years of school. Now I am a professional graphic designer and love photography above all other forms of art.

The point is, art is art. It's all visual communication. Don't get so focused on the current tools you are using. The concepts of form, composition, color theory, etc. transfer to different mediums.

Since I have that art foundation, for me, learning a program or a new "system" is the easy part. Anyone can master a piece of technology.

What year did you graduate?

 

[Plato the Wise]

Fair enough... you have to have the vision and apply the technique to get the shot... I'm sure ansel adams would not be nearly as infamous if he made mistakes like missing exposures due to environment conditions...

Ansel Adams did miss exposures. If you went to school or read any of his work you would know that.

 

[schmule]

Not as useless as you would think... Think of it like this... Your shooting a couple outdoors, open sun, you set your exposure... all of a sudden, a cloud comes overhead... you need to instinctively know to compensate... is it 1 stop or 2? Is it a thick light killing cloud or a thin softbox style cloud... Then you go into an open shade... what affect does that have not only on exposure but color?

awinphoto - do you also change WB on the fly or fix it in PP?

 

[awinphoto]

Not as useless as you would think... Think of it like this... Your shooting a couple outdoors, open sun, you set your exposure... all of a sudden, a cloud comes overhead... you need to instinctively know to compensate... is it 1 stop or 2? Is it a thick light killing cloud or a thin softbox style cloud... Then you go into an open shade... what affect does that have not only on exposure but color?

awinphoto - do you also change WB on the fly or fix it in PP?

99% of the time I change them on the fly... my goal is to do as little PP as possible as that goes against my bottom line...