Nikon 7100 has been anounced

[unfocused]

Neuro, you had me up until that "ship is sailing along fine..." stuff.

Not trying to single you out, because I know you know better and I know you aren't guilty of the sin I'm about to attack. But, I can never figure out why otherwise intelligent people think a multinational, multi-billion dollar, profitable company is stupid.

Far from it. My point is that Canon's current strategy is working. They are doing their R&D, developing new cameras with improved features, releasing them into the market, and those cameras are selling like gangbusters. I don't understand why otherwise intelligent people are clamoring for Canon to do something different, and be more like their competitor that isn't doing as well as they are in the market...

...We heard all of these arguments about the D800, and the 5D Mark III is apparently outselling it by a wide margin. Now the D7100 is the best thing since sliced bread, and while is does seem like a well-spec'd camera, I suggest we wait and see how well it sells, compared to a camera Canon may or may not release, before we declare victory for Nikon and claim Canon 'had their ass handed to them'.

Oh dear. We are going to have to agree to agree.

Seriously, I absolutely do agree with the points you have made. I thought I detected that you were starting to buy into the argument that Canon has fallen behind and I was trying to nip that in the bud.

I'm not a blindly loyal fan of Canon, but I have great respect for their ability to manage the company and return profits in a challenging environment. I also note that in the polls that count (buyers) Canon does extremely well and it seems that over the long run, their recent introductions (5DIII and 6D) are actually becoming more popular while their competitors' products are slipping.

At one point I worked for a major telecommunications carrier and the CEO used to say something to the effect that he would take an average plan that is well-executed over an excellent plan this is poorly executed any day of the week. Regardless of what anyone thinks about Canon, the fact is, they consistently know how to get the ball across the goal and do it more frequently and more consistently than their competitors.

 

[dlleno]

....Switching systems is a massive undertaking, both from a time and energy standpoint, and a financial resources one as well. Fully switching brands must be a well thought out decision, and sometimes it simply isn't worth it - even when new product releases are inferior to the competition's.

sure -- and the sales figures (that show the clear Canon advantage) may be in fact due to the high installed based. the implication is that no one (with a lick of sense) really compares body-to-body they compare system-to-system. So Canon sells more bodies becasue their strategy is working.

...I can honestly say that I will not be making any additional Canon body purchases without some significant improvement in sensor performance

This is a hot topic, to be sure. Canon's strategy of building the installed base and locking people in with a great lineup of lenses is aparently working. Thing is, we are not yet at the point where the Nikon shooters are producing better photos, in spite of their theoretical advantages and tables full of numbers that look better. My observation is just that Canon may be content to yield the industry leadership position to Sony in sensor design as long as they can avoid that point where Nikons are producing better photos. If/when that point in time will come is up for amusing debate, to be sure.

Until Nikon bodies and lenses produce better, more marketable, more compelling photos that clients favor over the Canon photos, and until the Canon wielding pros start to experience the economics of that, I don't think we have any real case that Canon is shirking their duties. And I do think it is about the economics of marketing photos, not about the gearheads that compare numbers.

 

[Meh]

Neuroanatomist,

I usually agree with the majority of your posts on here, but with this one I have to vehemently disagree.

Vehemently disagree? That's pretty serious man!


Definition of VEHEMENT

: marked by forceful energy : powerful <a vehement wind>: as

a : intensely emotional : impassioned, fervid <vehement patriotism>

b (1) : deeply felt <a vehement suspicion> (2) : forcibly expressed <vehement denunciations>

c : bitterly antagonistic <a vehement debate>

 

[RLPhoto]

I have not really liked shooting with the canon 5D Mark III,I cant really give a solid objective reason other than shooting inside shots seems to be much work.

The MK3 is the Best Handling, Best shooting, Best performing camera I've ever used, Which includes some usage of the venerable D700 to compare. Can you explain how so?

 

[Zlatko]

Simply cranking out new bodies every three years with a few tweaks just doesn't cut it anymore; Nikon has made this point as clear as crystal.

The 5D3 and 1DX have more than "a few tweaks" and certainly don't feel "cranked out". Each has numerous refinements, many of which are directly responsive to professionals' requests. Canon sensors already do a great job for many photographers. While more dynamic range will be welcome, there is more to a sensor than dynamic range. And there is more to a camera system than a sensor.

 

[dlleno]

....Switching systems is a massive undertaking, both from a time and energy standpoint, and a financial resources one as well. Fully switching brands must be a well thought out decision, and sometimes it simply isn't worth it - even when new product releases are inferior to the competition's.

sure -- and the sales figures (that show the clear Canon advantage) may be in fact due to the high installed based. the implication is that no one (with a lick of sense) really compares body-to-body they compare system-to-system. So Canon sells more bodies becasue their strategy is working.

I don't know that their current strategy is working but at a key point (lets say when the 20D/5D/5DII were introduced), they were able to capture a lot of photographers that were coming into digital photography or that were upgrading from point-and-shoot. Being on top of the market early let them establish a good installed base that will stick with the same vendor as time goes by because people can just buy a new body.

agreed. Only recently have we seen Sony overtake the Canon sensor technology -- but the point is that this advantage has not (yet) resulted in better or more marketable photos.

on EDIT: I would even add: Not even "easier to get better or more marketable photos with Nikon"!

In fact, because of Canon's market share and installed base they could quite easily remain one step behind the industry state-of-the-art in sensor technology and STILL maintain their position -- until and unless that gap truly and actually results in better photos, not just better specs, coming from the competition.

 

[Hobby Shooter]

Looking at the bigger picture, the market is what it is. If Canon wants to rely on mid-level dSLR sales to hobbyist and part-time shooters to fill it's coffers, and build their reputation on that, that's just fine - I just probably won't be hanging around at that point. To think of it from the personal computer perspective... If Canon wants to turn themselves into the Dell of dSLR manufacturers, that's certainly their prerogative, I'd just rather be shooting with an Apple.

Agree to disagree.

So with the Apple analogy, do you refer to before they switched to Intel or after? Apple PCs with a market share of around 6% against the 'low cost' Lenovo, Acer and Dell and for that matter also Samsung that own the market, is that it? Apple uses the same hardware as the rest, assembled in factories in China and sold in fixed configurations with inferior service offerings and worst of all a proprietary approach to basically all their software offerings, an operating system that has lost all edge it ever had. Sorry man, I'm happy using the more flexible 'low cost' PCs.

 

[Aglet]

In fact, because of Canon's market share and installed base they could quite easily remain one step behind the industry state-of-the-art in sensor technology and STILL maintain their position -- until and unless that gap truly and actually results in better photos, not just better specs, coming from the competition.

That's true, they're darn near a Juggernaut.
And all the gear these days is so good that no one bit of kit is going to stand out to such an extent that it makes the competition irrelevant.
It's only a few of us (vocal minority types) who prefer some of the technical advantages offered by the competition enough to add them to our inventory. Some of Nikon's and Pentax's gear makes my life a little easier vs using Canon. Altho it's unlikely we hold much sway with the likes of Canon; they're still making a (lot) of money doing things the way they've always done.
The competition had to improve substantially just to get noticed, IMO. I think they've accomplished this. Maybe they even improved their market share slightly.
But that consumer base is an important segment and I still don't see how that fight's going to change any.
I've heard more than one consumer type photog tell me that they've heard recent Nikon cameras are technically better but it didn't matter enough to them to buy one, their first SLR was a Rebel. And they liked it. And if any of them upgrade, they're likely to stay with what they know.
I think it takes more than just cash to switch to or add another system. It takes a degree of courage and determination. There's more learning to do, more things to remember. That sounds like work and we can predict what most people think of that.

 

[aj1575]

Looks nice. Now it is time for Canon to announce their 70D. I hope it will have similar specs to the D7100.

-Sensor in the 22MP range (a completly new sensor family please, not a warmed up 18 from the vintage 7D)
-100% viewfinder
-AF System with either more points than the 60D, or at least the -3EV one from the 6D in the middle
-GPS and WiFi (with priority to WiFi)
-Not bigger and not heavier than the current 60D
-I don't care about the dual card slot

I'm looking forward to the announcement

 

[Marsu42]

I'm well aware of the parallels to Microsoft, another conservative company. Just because it happened once, doesn't mean it will happen again; by the same token, just because it happened to another company doesn't mean Canon will learn from that lesson. Usually, changes like this don't happen overnight. Obviously, Microsoft did not respond to those changes appropriately for their business. It remains to be seen how Canon will respond to a declining marketshare, but of course, first that marketshare has to actually decline.

That's an interesting comparison because I do know one thing or two about Microsoft because I worked as a programmer for a MS Gold Certified partner some time, gaining insight how that company works - and it's not like Canon.

Microsoft has missed main developments again and again like the Internet or the mobile market - *but* they were always able to turn around 180 degrees and renew themselves like with Internet Explorer and now semi-abandoning WPF/.NET/Silverlight and multiple other technologies that they promoted for years a the future way. That always left a lot of victims in the M$ crowd who weren't able to turn around as fast as their tech base did, but it saved Microsoft until now.

Canon seems to be conservative because they lack imagination, while Microsoft is conservative because they use their "embrace, extend and extinguish" strategy (at least up to now) which needs a lot of time to work, i.e. pinning people to M$ tech.

I'm keen to see if Canon will be able to turn around from their strong product differentiation (high price or low features/quality) strategy in case they face a problem down the road, but on the other hand maybe they just did with the eos-m and we didn't notice until mirrorless reaches the old school dlsr segment with the cash cow customer base (that's us).

 

[Hobby Shooter]

I'm well aware of the parallels to Microsoft, another conservative company. Just because it happened once, doesn't mean it will happen again; by the same token, just because it happened to another company doesn't mean Canon will learn from that lesson. Usually, changes like this don't happen overnight. Obviously, Microsoft did not respond to those changes appropriately for their business. It remains to be seen how Canon will respond to a declining marketshare, but of course, first that marketshare has to actually decline.

That's an interesting comparison because I do know one thing or two about Microsoft because I worked as a programmer for a MS Gold Certified partner some time, gaining insight how that company works - and it's not like Canon.

Microsoft has missed main developments again and again like the Internet or the mobile market - *but* they were always able to turn around 180 degrees and renew themselves like with Internet Explorer and now semi-abandoning WPF/.NET/Silverlight and multiple other technologies that they promoted for years a the future way. That always left a lot of victims in the M$ crowd who weren't able to turn around as fast as their tech base did, but it saved Microsoft until now.

Canon seems to be conservative because they lack imagination, while Microsoft is conservative because they use their "embrace, extend and extinguish" strategy (at least up to now) which needs a lot of time to work, i.e. pinning people to M$ tech.

I'm keen to see if Canon will be able to turn around from their strong product differentiation (high price or low features/quality) strategy in case they face a problem down the road, but on the other hand maybe they just did with the eos-m and we didn't notice until mirrorless reaches the old school dlsr segment with the cash cow customer base (that's us).

Hmm, that's interesting what you say about .NET, I have spent some time on the other side (Java) and I used to think that .NET applications were prolific giving us much trouble.

I do agree that MS have failed on mobile, but seeing their work with Nokia and tablets it's very interesting and finally they have their first good OS in years after XP. Maybe not as innovative as they once were, but still very solid and good quality products, that sounds like Canon to me. I guess there are some parallels but also differences between these two companies also depending on inherent differences in the two markets.

 

[ichbins]

The sad thing is that Nikon is basically dominating all matchups(definitely on the lower end), at least in terms of specs, public perception(I understand pros love Canon for a reason, etc, i'm just saying.)

So, you're saying that "public perception" is that Nikon is "dominating" the matchups? Is your definition of "public" taken to mean, "People who frequent internet forums devoted to Nikon cameras and people who frequent internet forums devoted to Canon cameras for the primary purpose of trolling?"

Because the "public" who actually buy dSLRs, as opposed to those who just write about them on the internet, seem to buy a lot more Canon dSLRs than Nikon dSLRs, which is why Canon has been and, as of the latest available data, still is "dominating" the market.

I'm just saying... :

Yes. And the same - a few years ago - you say that surley about Nokia and the cellphon market.
Canon ist sleeping. An if they wake up it's perhaps to late.

I'm just saying ....

 

[Sith Zombie]

I actually think Nikon made a mistake with this one, don't get me wrong the specs are really great and the price.... WOW! The camera is awesome but crop shooters at camp nikon are waiting for the d300s replacement. The d300s is similar to the 7D in specs [lower mp but more af points, 7fps, metal body]

Now imagine the 7Dmkii specs were the same as the nikon d7100? how pissed would you all be? losing fps, build quality. It's kinda like all the d700 owners when the d800 came out, way too many mps and a big fps drop.
From our point of view, these cameras are great but to some nikon users expecting incremental upgrades, they are a step backwards in some ways [build and fps]
They seemed to more geared towards getting new customers than the existing users, which is probably their strategy. [and it could be working on me, may end up with a d800]

I think the 7Dmkii has a chance to shine: full metal build, 5dmkiii af, 10 fps, 20-24 mp.
Only problem will be the price. Ouch!

 

[Marsu42]

Canon ist sleeping. An if they wake up it's perhaps to late.

No, it'll never be too late and Canon knows it - in contrast to for example Microsoft they can change in no time by lowering the price of some models (as they did with the 5d3) and quickly release new cameras (see the fast the 6d was here) and lenses (according to the patents, they must have tons of prototypes) and flashes (440ex anyone?). That's why their making as much money as long as anyone's willing to pay their prices - good for Canon, bad for us.

Hmm, that's interesting what you say about .NET, I have spent some time on the other side (Java) and I used to think that .NET applications were prolific giving us much trouble.

.NET is a very good tech, the problem is simply that just like Java it's a bytecode language that is tuned for desktop or server environments and not for powersaving mobile devices - and Microsoft just pulled the plug for the .NET Desktop-only front-end WPF & the .NET-derivative Silverlight without shedding a tear for all the devs who put their career into it.

Same with Canon: To turn around they would have to break some eggs, i.e. undercutting current cameras with a new model that is cheaper *and* is overall "better" - and looking at the 6d specs they don't want to do that, not until the competition from Nikon actually affects their profits. In this spirit: go, Nikon, go

 

[Hobby Shooter]

Canon ist sleeping. An if they wake up it's perhaps to late.

No, it'll never be too late and Canon knows it - in contrast to for example Microsoft they can change in no time by lowering the price of some models (as they did with the 5d3) and quickly release new cameras (see the fast the 6d was here) and lenses (according to the patents, they must have tons of prototypes) and flashes (440ex anyone?). That's why their making as much money as long as anyone's willing to pay their prices - good for Canon, bad for us.

Hmm, that's interesting what you say about .NET, I have spent some time on the other side (Java) and I used to think that .NET applications were prolific giving us much trouble.

.NET is a very good tech, the problem is simply that just like Java it's a bytecode language that is tuned for desktop or server environments and not for powersaving mobile devices - and Microsoft just pulled the plug for the .NET Desktop-only front-end WPF & the .NET-derivative Silverlight without shedding a tear for all the devs who put their career into it.

Same with Canon: To turn around they would have to break some eggs, i.e. undercutting current cameras with a new model that is cheaper *and* is overall "better" - and looking at the 6d specs they don't want to do that, not until the competition from Nikon actually affects their profits. In this spirit: go, Nikon, go

Interesting about Silverlight, I didn't know that, I have been away from that world a couple of years working with large Unix hardware only for a while.

When it comes to breaking eggs, not sure I agree there, I don't want to see this business come into being a low margin business because that always limits innovation. The management at Nikon is obviously desperate throwing specs at people, including the latest and greatest for a very low price. I gather you remember AST, Digital, Compaq and lots of others that tried the same. Low price is not always good for the end customer. Of course the PC business has gone through a fantastic development the last fifteen years, even the last three years has been very interesting.

I don't mind spending some extra money

 

[Marsu42]

I don't mind spending some extra money

Well, I do, but I admit you're the ideal Canon customer ... and you might be in a large company in the "cash cow" high-end enthusiast's (7d2, 6d) or even (semi-)pro (5d3, ...) market.

The only question is if Canon is feeling the pressure from the competitors in the low-end enthusiasts' segment (60d, d7100, k5ii, ...) where Canon is blown away by the competitor's tech, sensor and build specs when comparing prices. That's why I'm interested in the 70d release, even though I'm happy with my 60d and the only way forward for me will be a ff 6d.

 

[Rienzphotoz]

Hopefully Canon is very scared - and taking Nikon's recent R&D push seriously. They need to respond immediately...

Respond to what? Sorry, but no, they really don't. To those who say, "Nikon is handing Canon their asses," or "Canon should be scared," understand that at the most fundamental level, camera sales are what matter. The finance and marketing divisons within a major corporation, especially a conservative one like Canon, are the voices that determine the ultimate output from the R&D side of the organization, in part because they control the input (i.e. funding) into that R&D.

As long as Canon continues to sell more cameras and lenses than Nikon, the finance and marketing folks will continue to say that the ship is sailing along fine, it ain't broke and there's nothing to fix. Is that short-sighted? Possibly. But as I've pointed out before, DxOMark has some pretty convincing data showing that from a sensor IQ standpoint, Nikon/Sony have been spanking Canon for several years now. Has that pushed Canon to 'wake up'? No - despite their 'crap' sensors, Canon has gone right on gaining market share at Nikon's expense.

What Canon has done, consistently and successfully, is sell entry level (Rebel/xxxD) cameras to more people than Nikon. We can debate up the wazoo about which $1200, $3000, or $6500 camera is "better" (whatever the hell that means, if it's even relevant since many of the people debating this aren't buying these cameras anyway). But both Canon and Nikon sell far more entry level cameras than everything higher up in the lineup combined. The fact that Canon is winning at the base of the pyramid means that more people are buying into their system, and that translates right on up the lines. A bigger base means a taller, more massive pyramid. While I'm sure there are exceptions, very few first-time dSLR buyers buy a $1200, $3000, or $6500 camera. But they may spend that much on their second dSLR, or their third...and if their first one was a Canon (which by the numbers, it is for a majority of the market), odds are their subsequent (more expensive) dSLRs will also be Canon.

+1

 

[Rienzphotoz]

This looks like a awesome wildlife camera much better then 7D and even 1d mk4.

???

 

[AvTvM]

the major difference between M$ and Canon is this:
Canon's executive floor is a geriatric ward. They have NO imagination whatsoever.
If M$ would be run by an executive board aged 70+ on average, they would fail in a similar way.

To me Canon looks increasingly like Kodak or thinking of copiers ... Xerox.
Once highly innovative and "bleeding edge" ... but LONG ago. And then fallen victim to ultra-conservative financial controllers.

Instead of going ALL OUT and absolutely conquer the mirrorless market within months by releasing a HIGH-END, FF EOS-M with IQ, perfromance and features to kill any DLSR on the market - except possibly a 1D-X, they came up tiwh a totally lacklustre, boring and sluggish piece of cr*p, just thining about how to "not cannibalize" their ultra-boring and unimaginative DSLR-lineup. And Canon got the right response from the market: total flop.

Canon only got away with their dissappointing product-lineup because Nikon is tun exactly the same way by their respective geriatric japanese management!

But Canon and Nikon they will be punished sooner rather than later! By us, by the market! Like Kodak received their *just punishment* in the end. And Xerox, and many many other companies, that did not strive to give their customers the very best products they could possibly design and make, but tried to short-change them.

 

[aj1575]

I'm really looking forward to the 70D now. I'm waiting for long enough now to replace my 350D (yes, it is still running). The D7100 set the bar pretty high; especially with that starting price. There is not much to complain about in this camera, just a few points.
-I miss integrated WiFi
-I can live with one SD-slot
-I can live with fewer AF-Points, IF they are more sensitive.

This is what I like to see from the 70D
-WiFi integrated
-AF point(s) with high sensitivity (like the -3EV on the 6D)
-Completly new sensor with DXOmark measurments close to the Sony sensors (I do not say DXORating, I just like to compare the measurments)
-And a price that is close to the one of the Nikon.

I fear the price will be higher; Nikons offer is amazing, and Canon more expensive anyway (hopefully the 6D D600 is an example, since they cost about the same)
The AF-System will be interesting to see, it could be an 11 point system, this is no dealbreaker for me. But I'm most interested in the sensor Canon will put into this camera. It needs to be something new; the 18MP they use now is just to old. I wonder how close they will get to the Sony/Nikon benchmark. Here a big improvement is needed, and this is a dealbreaker for me. If they can't catch up, then I will have to spend some more money then I would actually like to, and go FF with a 6D. This is still cheaper for me than switching to an APS-C Nikon.