Nikon Confirms New Mirrorless System Coming in Early 2019, What About Canon?

fullstop

EOS R
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
153
"convergence" stills images and video is way overhyped IMHO. While a few people really appreciate having one camera to capture both stills and video, majority of (potential) still camera buyers does not seriously record video. So no need whatsoever to put video capture into each and every camera.

I'd prefer Canon to take an approach similar to Sony but even more strict. Offer some or all future (non-cine) EOS cameras in 2 versions:
S = "Stills-optimized" = base model, no video out whatsoever
V = "Video optimized" = same as base, but additionally with best possible 4k implementation, optimal video codec. image pipeline, processor/DIGIC, audio processor, large heatsink, everything beefed up to withstand even lengthy video recordings. Menus filled to the brim with "video-centric" options. Zebras, microphones, mic and headphone jacks, all sorts of video-out connectors and whatever. Plus of course a nice red dedicated "record video" button. Charge 25%-50% more for V model compared to same sensored base model to offset cost of all the the video extras that are not needed - or even counterproductive - for stills capture.

win win. Those who really need/want convergence can get it at an adequate price. And those who just constantly whimper for 4k and all sorts of video features got to stop whimpering in forums.
 

BillB

EOS R
May 11, 2017
1,393
659
fullstop said:
"convergence" stills images and video is way overhyped IMHO. While a few people really appreciate having one camera to capture both stills and video, majority of (potential) still camera buyers does not seriously record video. So no need whatsoever to put video capture into each and every camera.

I'd prefer Canon to take an approach similar to Sony but even more strict. Offer some or all future (non-cine) EOS cameras in 2 versions:
S = "Stills-optimized" = base model, no video out whatsoever
V = "Video optimized" = same as base, but additionally with best possible 4k implementation, optimal video codec. image pipeline, processor/DIGIC, audio processor, large heatsink, everything beefed up to withstand even lengthy video recordings. Menus filled to the brim with "video-centric" options. Zebras, microphones, mic and headphone jacks, all sorts of video-out connectors and whatever. Plus of course a nice red dedicated "record video" button. Charge 25%-50% more for V model compared to same sensored base model to offset cost of all the the video extras that are not needed - or even counterproductive - for stills capture.

win win. Those who really need/want convergence can get it at an adequate price. And those who just constantly whimper for 4k and all sorts of video features got to stop whimpering in forums.

And where is the fun in that? I guess people could still whine about the price of the V model.
 

Mikehit

EOS R6
Jul 28, 2015
3,340
544
BillB said:
And where is the fun in that? I guess people could still whine about the price of the V model.

And why the S model is so close to the price of the V model. After all it costs a lot of money to instal video.
 

Isaacheus

EOS RP
Jun 22, 2017
215
27
New Zealand
Mikehit said:
Isaacheus said:
I'm not going to defend Sony by saying that all the features work well/as hoped, but I do feel that a number of the features Canon have added recently also have a number of negatives, in video especially. The problem is compounded more by Canon not offering as many features either.

The number of times I have read comments like 'I don't use 4K myself but Canon have to include it to remain competitive'. It makes me wonder how people arrive at their buying decisions. Fortunately I think most Canon customers buy based on what they need and how Canon fits that need.

I think you've misunderstood me there: I'm not suggesting that 4k is the be all, end all of features that people make their decisions on, it's certainly not what I used. It's simply an example of where the difference is easily seen. In my case specifically, I wanted a full frame camera with high dr (Ala the 5dmk4) try a tilt screen, and dual card slots. In one body. Bonuses for other features like 4k, manual focus aids etc.

I do use 4k now I have it, but it was something I could have lived without when I was buying a new body. My point was really that Canon weren't/aren't offering the features i was interested in, so I started looking elsewhere. And the features they have started offering can have negatives to them as well (someone was stating this was the problem with Sony)
 

Isaacheus

EOS RP
Jun 22, 2017
215
27
New Zealand
BillB said:
Isaacheus said:
The Fat Fish said:
Isaacheus said:
I'm not going to defend Sony by saying that all the features work well/as hoped, but I do feel that a number of the features Canon have added recently also have a number of negatives, in video especially. The problem is compounded more by Canon not offering as many features either.

A great example of this would be the 4k implementation; all the latest Sonys offer fairly decent 4k in both full frame and super 35 mode, while the 6d mk2 doesn't have it at all, and the 5d mk4 has a significant crop, but also a storage heavy codec. Whether or not this will be the end of the world/a deciding factor, but it is a negative on the Canon side. The Sony ha been known to over heat with longer record times (I believe this has mostly been fixed?), so I'm not saying either is perfect.

On the otherhand, I'm pleased that Canon at least tried to include 4k in the m50, rather than just not bother at all like in the 6d mk2.

The lack of video features is the most deal breaking thing for me, especially considering it was Canon who started the video DSLR market with the 550D and 5DII.

I also wish the M50 did not have 4K as it's such a poor implementation of it, it does not deserve to be on the marketing material. Canon likes to do things like this and market pointless "features" (Digital Video IS).

I agree the implementation is not great, but I do like that Canon seem to be trying more with it, and hopefully they'll see that people aren't that happy with the current form, and rectify that. Given the market point of it at least. I'd still be more disappointed if the 6d mk2 couldn't use dpaf with 4k, if they'd put it in, given the cost etc

I can easily see where you're coming from too though

Have either of you actually used the M50 to shoot 4K video?

Haven't used the M50 as it doesn't fit my uses, not against trying it but I'm not going to buy one to confirm the lack of dpaf means it doesn't work suit.
I've used other cameras to shoot 4k, the biggest downside /negative I can see with the M50 is the lack of dpaf/good af

Edit: dpaf in 4k
 

fullstop

EOS R
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
153
EOS M50 does have DPAF. No idea whether it is operative in video mode, but i don't ever capture videos, so wayne for me. May buy an M50 once price comes down to lowest priced DSRL/Rebel.
 

Talys

Canon R5
CR Pro
Feb 16, 2017
2,093
380
Vancouver, BC
fullstop said:
EOS M50 does have DPAF. No idea whether it is operative in video mode, but i don't ever capture videos, so wayne for me. May buy an M50 once price comes down to lowest priced DSRL/Rebel.

Sure it does. It uses DPAF for everything other than 4k video.

I played with one a while the other day; It's not bad, and has a better viewfinder than the M5 (frankly, it's awesome for a $750 MILC). It might be a great camera for lots of people, but taking nearly out all the physical dials and buttons makes it a no-go for me. I've almost bought the M5 so many times, but now that I see the M50 EVF, I think I'll wait for the M5 Mark II. The fully articulating touchscreen is an awesome plus, too, and I assume it will make it into future M5.

It could have just been me being unfamiliar with the camera, but there are a couple of things I'm not crazy about on the M50, other than the lack of physical controls. First, single point AF - I couldn't figure out how to get it to a small rectangle. The single "point" is a really big box (it's a smaller box on the M5, but it still isn't tiny). And second, the M5, there isn't a way to auto focus magnify. I wish there was. The three-step process of "magnify button, magnification dial, manual focus" is too cumbersome.
 

fullstop

EOS R
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
153
way too large AF fields is my main issue as well on all Canon EOS M cameras. actually AF area is even bigger than the rectangle shown ... YUCK! :mad:
 

pj1974

80D, M5, 7D, & lots of glass and accessories!
Oct 18, 2011
690
212
Adelaide, Australia
Hi all

I have the Canon M5. I like the control / use of the camera with a number of control dials AND an EVF better than limitations in each. (one reason why I didn't get the M6)

The Canon M50 is a great indication that Canon are going to continue to provide decent features in their EOS-M cameras, e.g. the M5 mkII, etc.
While I don’t take many videos, and at this stage don’t care for 4K, it will be ok to have it in as a well-implemented feature for the future, even in the budget models.

I also find the standard ‘large’ square AF point too large, so I use the smaller box by default – e.g. for my landscape / still life images (even though this limits one of the AF operations, tracking I think).
But with auto-tracking and continuous AF, I want a larger square anyway, so it’s not a big issue.

Might be playing with a M50 in a local store’s “Canon event” later this week…. Let’s see!

8) PJ
 

Talys

Canon R5
CR Pro
Feb 16, 2017
2,093
380
Vancouver, BC
pj1974 said:
I also find the standard ‘large’ square AF point too large, so I use the smaller box by default – e.g. for my landscape / still life images (even though this limits one of the AF operations, tracking I think).
But with auto-tracking and continuous AF, I want a larger square anyway, so it’s not a big issue.

Might be playing with a M50 in a local store’s “Canon event” later this week…. Let’s see!

8) PJ

Let me know what you think, please!

I am not super-familiar with the M5, so it was a bit hard for me to gauge fairly. Also, let me know if you can get the small square AF on the M50 going. The M5 square is the same size as a DSLR DPAF "live view" square, right? I'm ok with that for a sub-$1k (anyways, the Sony A7Riii has about the same size square); the big square on the M50 is just too inaccurate for me.

I would love an AF mode the equivalent of Spot AF on a DLSR (Square with dot). And on a $2k+ body, I'd like to see expanding single point AF.

By the way, one major plus to Canon: the M50 Eye AF is AWESOME compared to Sony, except that it is not enabled in AI Servo, I assume, because M50's price point. Sony Eye AF requires that you AF the subject, then press another button (a physically different one) to engage Eye AF. Canon Eye AF just requires that you AF the subject -- as long as Eye AF is enabled, if a face is detected, the nearest eye is autofocused. It worked really well, IMO.
 

Isaacheus

EOS RP
Jun 22, 2017
215
27
New Zealand
Talys said:
pj1974 said:
I also find the standard ‘large’ square AF point too large, so I use the smaller box by default – e.g. for my landscape / still life images (even though this limits one of the AF operations, tracking I think).
But with auto-tracking and continuous AF, I want a larger square anyway, so it’s not a big issue.

Might be playing with a M50 in a local store’s “Canon event” later this week…. Let’s see!

8) PJ

Let me know what you think, please!

I am not super-familiar with the M5, so it was a bit hard for me to gauge fairly. Also, let me know if you can get the small square AF on the M50 going. The M5 square is the same size as a DSLR DPAF "live view" square, right? I'm ok with that for a sub-$1k (anyways, the Sony A7Riii has about the same size square); the big square on the M50 is just too inaccurate for me.

I would love an AF mode the equivalent of Spot AF on a DLSR (Square with dot). And on a $2k+ body, I'd like to see expanding single point AF.

By the way, one major plus to Canon: the M50 Eye AF is AWESOME compared to Sony, except that it is not enabled in AI Servo, I assume, because M50's price point. Sony Eye AF requires that you AF the subject, then press another button (a physically different one) to engage Eye AF. Canon Eye AF just requires that you AF the subject -- as long as Eye AF is enabled, if a face is detected, the nearest eye is autofocused. It worked really well, IMO.

Did the sony you try not just eye af when you hit the assigned button? Mine seems to work fine without using standard af first.
How quick is the Canon version? I'm keen to see how they implement it in the higher spec versions, it'd be excellent if they could get it in af-servo. It's a feature that I'd really miss if I went to something without it

Does it work in all dual modes or just a few? I've heard mixed reports on that.
 

Talys

Canon R5
CR Pro
Feb 16, 2017
2,093
380
Vancouver, BC
Isaacheus said:
Talys said:
pj1974 said:
I also find the standard ‘large’ square AF point too large, so I use the smaller box by default – e.g. for my landscape / still life images (even though this limits one of the AF operations, tracking I think).
But with auto-tracking and continuous AF, I want a larger square anyway, so it’s not a big issue.

Might be playing with a M50 in a local store’s “Canon event” later this week…. Let’s see!

8) PJ

Let me know what you think, please!

I am not super-familiar with the M5, so it was a bit hard for me to gauge fairly. Also, let me know if you can get the small square AF on the M50 going. The M5 square is the same size as a DSLR DPAF "live view" square, right? I'm ok with that for a sub-$1k (anyways, the Sony A7Riii has about the same size square); the big square on the M50 is just too inaccurate for me.

I would love an AF mode the equivalent of Spot AF on a DLSR (Square with dot). And on a $2k+ body, I'd like to see expanding single point AF.

By the way, one major plus to Canon: the M50 Eye AF is AWESOME compared to Sony, except that it is not enabled in AI Servo, I assume, because M50's price point. Sony Eye AF requires that you AF the subject, then press another button (a physically different one) to engage Eye AF. Canon Eye AF just requires that you AF the subject -- as long as Eye AF is enabled, if a face is detected, the nearest eye is autofocused. It worked really well, IMO.

Did the sony you try not just eye af when you hit the assigned button? Mine seems to work fine without using standard af first.
How quick is the Canon version? I'm keen to see how they implement it in the higher spec versions, it'd be excellent if they could get it in af-servo. It's a feature that I'd really miss if I went to something without it

Does it work in all dual modes or just a few? I've heard mixed reports on that.

Sony version requires that you assign two buttons: one for AF, and the other for eye AF. If you don't do that, Eye AF only works if the face you want to eye AF on is already nearly in focus and in the target area. Or, if you have a couple of people beside each other, it may pick the wrong one, if you don't AF the subject first.

Canon version is just a single button: as long as you're in face detect mode, you press AF and it immediately chooses the eye of the person you AF on. There's never a green rectangle on the subject; just the green rectangle on the eye.

The Eye AF is instant; there's no hunting or guessing if it finds an eye. If it doesn't think there's an eye, it just AF's as usual.

The most annoying thing about the Sony version is that it requires a second button. It would be great if you could set a Custom mode for portraits, and then back button AF always looked for the eye of the subject in whatever focus mode area you have. To be honest, I'd probably be ok with a little bit of lag or hunt with Eye AF (it would bug me, but I'd get over it), because Eye AF is something for portraits, not fast-moving action.

The reason it can't really work that way on Sony, though, I think, is that autofocus is based on PDAF, and eye AF is based on contrast detect AF. It's entirely possible that I'm wrong, of course =X.
 

Isaacheus

EOS RP
Jun 22, 2017
215
27
New Zealand
Talys said:
Isaacheus said:
Talys said:
pj1974 said:
I also find the standard ‘large’ square AF point too large, so I use the smaller box by default – e.g. for my landscape / still life images (even though this limits one of the AF operations, tracking I think).
But with auto-tracking and continuous AF, I want a larger square anyway, so it’s not a big issue.

Might be playing with a M50 in a local store’s “Canon event” later this week…. Let’s see!

8) PJ

Let me know what you think, please!

I am not super-familiar with the M5, so it was a bit hard for me to gauge fairly. Also, let me know if you can get the small square AF on the M50 going. The M5 square is the same size as a DSLR DPAF "live view" square, right? I'm ok with that for a sub-$1k (anyways, the Sony A7Riii has about the same size square); the big square on the M50 is just too inaccurate for me.

I would love an AF mode the equivalent of Spot AF on a DLSR (Square with dot). And on a $2k+ body, I'd like to see expanding single point AF.

By the way, one major plus to Canon: the M50 Eye AF is AWESOME compared to Sony, except that it is not enabled in AI Servo, I assume, because M50's price point. Sony Eye AF requires that you AF the subject, then press another button (a physically different one) to engage Eye AF. Canon Eye AF just requires that you AF the subject -- as long as Eye AF is enabled, if a face is detected, the nearest eye is autofocused. It worked really well, IMO.

Did the sony you try not just eye af when you hit the assigned button? Mine seems to work fine without using standard af first.
How quick is the Canon version? I'm keen to see how they implement it in the higher spec versions, it'd be excellent if they could get it in af-servo. It's a feature that I'd really miss if I went to something without it

Does it work in all dual modes or just a few? I've heard mixed reports on that.

Sony version requires that you assign two buttons: one for AF, and the other for eye AF. If you don't do that, Eye AF only works if the face you want to eye AF on is already nearly in focus and in the target area. Or, if you have a couple of people beside each other, it may pick the wrong one, if you don't AF the subject first.

Canon version is just a single button: as long as you're in face detect mode, you press AF and it immediately chooses the eye of the person you AF on. There's never a green rectangle on the subject; just the green rectangle on the eye.

The Eye AF is instant; there's no hunting or guessing if it finds an eye. If it doesn't think there's an eye, it just AF's as usual.

The most annoying thing about the Sony version is that it requires a second button. It would be great if you could set a Custom mode for portraits, and then back button AF always looked for the eye of the subject in whatever focus mode area you have. To be honest, I'd probably be ok with a little bit of lag or hunt with Eye AF (it would bug me, but I'd get over it), because Eye AF is something for portraits, not fast-moving action.

The reason it can't really work that way on Sony, though, I think, is that autofocus is based on PDAF, and eye AF is based on contrast detect AF. It's entirely possible that I'm wrong, of course =X.

Just so I'm following you right, the Canon version doesn't have a separate button to activate eye af, so it's active all the time? Or can you set a button to deactivate it if needed?
 

fullstop

EOS R
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
153
no separate button for Eye-AF. Is activated/deactivated in menu ... at any time.

Most advanced (Eye-) DPAF implementation atm in canon EOS M50. Good description some way down in this article: http://learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2018/eos-m50/eos-m50-autofocus.shtml

This is an exciting new feature, introduced with the EOS M50 camera. When its AF Method is set to Face Detect + Tracking, the entire active AF area (see the colored outlines in the graphics above) is used for focusing. And, if a human face is detected, the Face Detect technology has been enhanced — the camera doesn’t simply focus on the most prominent face in the scene. Instead, it now is able to detect the nearest eye on that face, and puts a smaller focus box on that eye. If that person moves around the picture area, the Eye Detection AF continues to track that eye, as long as it remains visible.

When Eye Detection AF is active, you’ll see a large, outer box indicating that Face Detection has recognized a human face. And within it, a smaller box will surround the actual eye that is being concentrated upon for Eye Detection AF — such as in the following simulated graphic:

This means that sharp focus will more than ever be placed on the “leading” eye of your subjects, whether you’re shooting portraits or candid pictures. Where many experienced photographers might have previously made the effort to change to a single AF point, and move it manually to cover the face of a human subject, the new Eye Detection AF technology means that the process can be left to the EOS M50 in many cases.

All that has to be done to activate Eye Detection AF is to Enable Eye Detection AF in the 3rd Shooting Menu screen, and be sure that Face Detect + Tracking is the active AF Method. It will function in most shooting modes.
 

jolyonralph

EOS R5 Mark II
CR Pro
Aug 25, 2015
1,421
928
London, UK
www.everyothershot.com
Talys said:
The reason it can't really work that way on Sony, though, I think, is that autofocus is based on PDAF, and eye AF is based on contrast detect AF. It's entirely possible that I'm wrong, of course =X.

I don't think this has anything to do with it. Eye AF is done with image processing, the focus method is entirely unconnected with this. There's no reason that Sony's Eye AF couldn't work exactly the same as Canon's if they programmed it to.
 

Talys

Canon R5
CR Pro
Feb 16, 2017
2,093
380
Vancouver, BC
Isaacheus said:
Just so I'm following you right, the Canon version doesn't have a separate button to activate eye af, so it's active all the time? Or can you set a button to deactivate it if needed?

Correct. Eye AF is either on or off. If Eye AF is enable and you set AF to Face/AI mode (as opposed to zone or single point), shutter half press finds the eye if it's there. It is actually so fast that I could defocus to infinity and just click the shutter on someone 4ft away (without half press) and the M50 AFs on the eye and takes the photo nearly instantly with a straight full press. I was very impressed.

On the M50, eye AF feels more like an idiot proof autofocus for portraits than anything else. The fast way to turn it off is simply to switch AF mode to point.
 

fullstop

EOS R
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
153
Talys said:
On the M50, eye AF feels more like an idiot proof autofocus for portraits than anything else.

What EF-M lens/es did you use? The "specially AF enabled" ones (28 Macro, 18-150, 55-200) or a "regular" EF-M?
Respectively, any "real life" differences in practice [other than 149 AF fields vs. 99] between lenses on EOS M50?
 

Isaacheus

EOS RP
Jun 22, 2017
215
27
New Zealand
Talys said:
Isaacheus said:
Just so I'm following you right, the Canon version doesn't have a separate button to activate eye af, so it's active all the time? Or can you set a button to deactivate it if needed?

Correct. Eye AF is either on or off. If Eye AF is enable and you set AF to Face/AI mode (as opposed to zone or single point), shutter half press finds the eye if it's there. It is actually so fast that I could defocus to infinity and just click the shutter on someone 4ft away (without half press) and the M50 AFs on the eye and takes the photo nearly instantly with a straight full press. I was very impressed.

On the M50, eye AF feels more like an idiot proof autofocus for portraits than anything else. The fast way to turn it off is simply to switch AF mode to point.

Ah that's good, I can't imagine many situations where you wouldn't want it running for people /portraits but it's better when it doesn't take a menu dive to disable
 

Talys

Canon R5
CR Pro
Feb 16, 2017
2,093
380
Vancouver, BC
Isaacheus said:
Talys said:
Isaacheus said:
Just so I'm following you right, the Canon version doesn't have a separate button to activate eye af, so it's active all the time? Or can you set a button to deactivate it if needed?

Correct. Eye AF is either on or off. If Eye AF is enable and you set AF to Face/AI mode (as opposed to zone or single point), shutter half press finds the eye if it's there. It is actually so fast that I could defocus to infinity and just click the shutter on someone 4ft away (without half press) and the M50 AFs on the eye and takes the photo nearly instantly with a straight full press. I was very impressed.

On the M50, eye AF feels more like an idiot proof autofocus for portraits than anything else. The fast way to turn it off is simply to switch AF mode to point.

Ah that's good, I can't imagine many situations where you wouldn't want it running for people /portraits but it's better when it doesn't take a menu dive to disable

Yes, I agree. I hope that on more pro-ish bodies, we'll get to simply program Eye on/off program into C modes as well, and if we're lucky, Canon will also make it remember the setting separately for each of the exposure modes, too.

There are some edge cases, I suppose, like on a dslr withvery shallow DoF situation, if someone is angled and close to me and I really want to maximize the bokeh, I AF closer to the bridge of the nose to hopefully get both eyes in sharp focus, but... Whatever... I'd be just as happy always getting the near eye and stopping down a little bit if necessary.
 

BillB

EOS R
May 11, 2017
1,393
659
Isaacheus said:
Talys said:
Isaacheus said:
Just so I'm following you right, the Canon version doesn't have a separate button to activate eye af, so it's active all the time? Or can you set a button to deactivate it if needed?

Correct. Eye AF is either on or off. If Eye AF is enable and you set AF to Face/AI mode (as opposed to zone or single point), shutter half press finds the eye if it's there. It is actually so fast that I could defocus to infinity and just click the shutter on someone 4ft away (without half press) and the M50 AFs on the eye and takes the photo nearly instantly with a straight full press. I was very impressed.

On the M50, eye AF feels more like an idiot proof autofocus for portraits than anything else. The fast way to turn it off is simply to switch AF mode to point.

Ah that's good, I can't imagine many situations where you wouldn't want it running for people /portraits but it's better when it doesn't take a menu dive to disable
Talys said:
Isaacheus said:
Just so I'm following you right, the Canon version doesn't have a separate button to activate eye af, so it's active all the time? Or can you set a button to deactivate it if needed?

At on the 5DIV in Liveview, you can simply select or touch focus an area other than the face if that is what you want to do. You would need to go to the menu if you want to get out of eye af completely.

Correct. Eye AF is either on or off. If Eye AF is enable and you set AF to Face/AI mode (as opposed to zone or single point), shutter half press finds the eye if it's there. It is actually so fast that I could defocus to infinity and just click the shutter on someone 4ft away (without half press) and the M50 AFs on the eye and takes the photo nearly instantly with a straight full press. I was very impressed.

On the M50, eye AF feels more like an idiot proof autofocus for portraits than anything else. The fast way to turn it off is simply to switch AF mode to point.