nikon d600 fullframe afordable camera!! will canon reply?

[PhilDrinkwater]

That will do to Canon in the FF/enthusiast/amateur market segment, what the D800 does in the semi-pro/Pro market segment ... final call for Canon's geriatric management!

The d800 is a camera with advantages and disadvantages to each semi & pro market, just like the 5d3.

If you gave me a choice of d800 or 5d3 I'd choose the 5d3 every day. I don't know if you actually believe me, but I would. And it's not a "pro Canon" point since I looked very seriously at Nikon when I found out about the viewfinder issues on the 5d3.

Fundamentally, I don't want a 36mp camera (I actually would prefer not to have it) and I don't need more DR (although occasionally I would like some, but either way it won't kill my business). What I do need is a camera which I can get, will be fixed on time when I need it (and they won't charge me $250 for it), produces beautiful skin tones, has the lenses that I want (since they make more of a difference to my sales) and handles effectively in the ways that I need.

That's the 5d3, not the d800.

For studio & landscape the d800 is the "better" camera, but only if you need to print big and have impeccable technique. For weddings and events and probably sports, the 5d3 is the "better" camera. As pretty much all of the reviews are saying, they are both fantastic.

I honestly think people miss the point of the pro/semi-pro market.

These are markets which are more likely to care about how the camera feels in their hands for 10 hours straight, how easy it is to change settings and (in a number of cases) which produces the best JPEGs, although to some MP and DR will actually matter. As many Nikon pros have said in the past though "I can make beautiful 24" prints with my 12mp camera".

So will the d800 sensor "do something" to the semi-pro / pro market? Well yes - some people will switch. But people will switch the other way too. The amount will be pretty low though. Mostly what's happened is there's been masses of techy discussion on forums, but that's not the "real world" of commercial photography on the whole.

All that said, the d800 is a great camera. It's just not the camera for me and certainly NONE of my pro friends are looking at switching, either from Canon to Nikon or Nikon to Canon. Nikon people have gripes. Canon people have gripes. It'll always happen.

 

[mws]

I wonder what the manufacturing costs are of the 5d MK II, how low could Canon sell it for and still make a profit. Canon has made a boat load of money off it, all R&D for it is long paid for by now. Or I wonder f they see the 5D MK II as "too good" of a camera for a entry level FF

 

[AvTvM]

I wonder what the manufacturing costs are of the 5d MK II, how low could Canon sell it for and still make a profit. Canon has made a boat load of money off it, all R&D for it is long paid for by now. Or I wonder f they see the 5D MK II as "too good" of a camera for a entry level FF

A camera with an outdated, insufficient AF-system is never good enough for anything, not even for "entry level". The 5D2 could only be considered a pretty decent entry-level video-cam.

 

[PhilDrinkwater]

I wonder what the manufacturing costs are of the 5d MK II, how low could Canon sell it for and still make a profit. Canon has made a boat load of money off it, all R&D for it is long paid for by now. Or I wonder f they see the 5D MK II as "too good" of a camera for a entry level FF

A camera with an outdated, insufficient AF-system is never good enough for anything, not even for "entry level". The 5D2 could only be considered a pretty decent entry-level video-cam.

Wow! You're down on Canon things!

I'd like to point out that a) I used that camera professional for 3 years, so it's clearly suitable, even for my relatively tough needs and b) loads of people are not upgrading to the 5d3 since they don't see the point since their 5d2 meets their needs, so they will continue to use it.

Clearly it's fine for entry use and continued professional use, presuming you don't need higher ISO, dual cards or outer focus points that work. Tools for the job - and that statement includes budget.

 

[AvTvM]

A camera with an outdated, insufficient AF-system is never good enough for anything, not even for "entry level". The 5D2 could only be considered a pretty decent entry-level video-cam.

Wow! You're down on Canon things!

Yes, but only on those Canon things that are not fully competitive, not as good or better than what is available elsewhere.

Because I really appreciate your opinion and your discussion style a lot, please let me explain a bit where I am coming from. I am just an amateur, but an "enthusiastic" one for sure. I have not and will never shoot video. Not out of a lack of interest in moving images per se, but I know, that my creative talents, my skills as a playwright, as a "movie" producer and a movie director as well as my time and budget are nowhere near what it takes to create great videos that I (and others) would be happy with.

So I am into "stills only". After owning rebels first and then a 40D, I purchased the Canon 7D on the first day it became available. Of course it cost full MSRP. Because I was sick and tired of the AF system on the 40D - especially after having seen and tried a friend's Nikon D300. I have not regretted my purchase at all - not for a single day. It has made a lot of difference to my photography, I have been able to capture many shots in much more challenging situations than with my previous cameras. I no longer feel "limited" by the camera. If today I cannot create great images ALL the time, it is NOT the camera's fault. ;-)

While the 7D also has its shortcomings as an imaging tool, it still is - almost three years after release - fully competitive in all relevant dimensions: getting shots and "technical" image quality. As a universally useful camera it is better than any other APS-C DSLR available elsewhere. Canon has only slightly crippled it to "protect" their higher-end cameras. And right from introduction it was priced reasonably and competitively.

The combination 7D and one lens - the excellent EF-S 17-55 IS - for which there still is no equivalent from Nikon, have kept me from switching to a D300/s back then. Had Canon not come out with the 7D but only the 60D with its vastly inferior AF-System (in the same league as the 5D & 5D 2 AF-system!) I would have switched for sure.

While I have no immediate urge to "upgrade" to FF (36x24mm), I will eventually buy an FF camera. I would prefer a Canon camera, for a number of reasons: my nice EF-lenses (70-200 2.8 II, 100/2, 50/1.4) and some speedlites, but even more importantly because of my familiarity with the Canon user interface and ergonomics. Also, I would then have an FF-body for WW - landscapes, urban exploration, for portraits/studio and for Hi-ISO (concerts) and my trusty 7D as an "APS-C teleconverter" for reach-critical stuff (e.g. animals in the wild). One more Canon advantage would be their radio-controlled speedlites, IF they bring out receivers, allowing seamless integration of the 3 speedlites I already own (430EX, 430EX II, 580EX II). All of that ties me quite deeply into the Canon system.

BUT ... and here's the BUT: I will NOT buy the 5D3 if there is a better camera for my style of photography available from another manufacturer for less money. I would be able and willing to pay € 3.5 k - but if I shell out that amount of money for a camera, then it has to be clearly better than anything else on the market in its class. The 5D 3 is not.

To me it feels a bit as if BMW would all of sudden charge more for a face-lifted 2012 5-series than what a new-generation Porsche 911 costs. I would not buy the beamer ... no way ... as nice as it might be on its own merits ... as big as its trunk might be ... not even if I already had another BMW ... and nice rims for it ... and knew the guys at the dealership & garage quite well.

So I'll wait and see. If the 5D3 falls in price below € 2.500 ... the picture would change to "normal": a somewhat less capable camera for less money ... I might re-consider then.

 

[PhilDrinkwater]

BUT ... and here's the BUT: I will NOT buy the 5D3 if there is a better camera for my style of photography available from another manufacturer for less money. I would be able and willing to pay € 3.5 k - but if I shell out that amount of money for a camera, then it has to be clearly better than anything else on the market in its class. The 5D 3 is not.

So I'll wait and see. If the 5D3 falls in price below € 2.500 ... the picture would change to "normal": a somewhat less capable camera for less money ... I might re-consider then.

I do understand what you mean. I'm just a bit disappointed by some of the random negativity towards anything and everything - I suppose because I am so happy.

The difficulty I have is that the 5d3 IS a better camera for some purposes - and you do kind of highlight this - just not yours. It's a better camera for my purposes than the d800 so I bought it and I did think carefully before doing that - and even rented one to be very sure. For some the 5d2 would be the right tool for their job too.

Totally agree that you should do whatever you feel, but I guess be a little careful that you compare like with like: by buying into Canon you are buying into service, lenses and other accessories and so on. Lenses are a key reason I stay with Canon if I'm honest.

IMO it is the best wedding camera on the market when you take everything into account (price included) and I said as much in my review http://www.phildweddingphotography.co.uk/index.php/2012/05/canon-5diii-for-weddings/

Horses for courses..

 

[RuneL]

There goes Nikon's compatibility with all older glass. Basically they're abandoning any lens made before the year 2000.

That strategy worked for Canon in 1987.

But as competitive as the market is now I think it would be a bad decision. Nikons comparability is confusing enough as it is.

 

[x-vision]

To me it feels a bit as if BMW would all of sudden charge more for a face-lifted 2012 5-series ...

My sentiments exactly.

 

[moreorless]

I do understand what you mean. I'm just a bit disappointed by some of the random negativity towards anything and everything - I suppose because I am so happy.

The difficulty I have is that the 5d3 IS a better camera for some purposes - and you do kind of highlight this - just not yours. It's a better camera for my purposes than the d800 so I bought it and I did think carefully before doing that - and even rented one to be very sure. For some the 5d2 would be the right tool for their job too.

Totally agree that you should do whatever you feel, but I guess be a little careful that you compare like with like: by buying into Canon you are buying into service, lenses and other accessories and so on. Lenses are a key reason I stay with Canon if I'm honest.

IMO it is the best wedding camera on the market when you take everything into account (price included) and I said as much in my review http://www.phildweddingphotography.co.uk/index.php/2012/05/canon-5diii-for-weddings/

Horses for courses..

Theres does seem to be a tendacey for those desiring maximum resolution to underestimate the value of other areas of fucntionality, I'd guess because they tend to mix with people who have similar needs?

I'm wondering if a good option for Canon might not be to release a higher MP body below the 5D mk3? lesser AF, video quality and FPS plus a few other professional features removed and a 40 MP sensor added. I'd guess alot of high resolution users would be more willing to work around such weaknesses that many event photographers.

 

[AvTvM]

Theres does seem to be a tendacey for those desiring maximum resolution to underestimate the value of other areas of fucntionality, I'd guess because they tend to mix with people who have similar needs?

I'm wondering if a good option for Canon might not be to release a higher MP body below the 5D mk3? lesser AF, video quality and FPS plus a few other professional features removed and a 40 MP sensor added. I'd guess alot of high resolution users would be more willing to work around such weaknesses that many event photographers.

I would be happy with 22 or 24 MP on FF.
I would love to have a stills-only camera with ZERO video fuinctionality ... except what is absolutely needed to drive Liveview for max. 1 minute at a time.
I will never again accept weaker AF than 7D/5D3/D700 levels. Actually, I would like to get Canon Eye Control AF improved to 2012 standards ... ON TOP of a top notch ultra-fast AF system, ideally a hybrid AF-system, with phase detect sensors embedded in the sensor plus fast contrast AF (as introduced in the Nikon 1 series, but for FF sensors) .. .THAT is the kind of innovation I would expect from Canon today ...
For SUCH a camera I would happily pay USD/€ 3.500