No 7D Mark II? [CR1]

[unfocused]

Chuck Alaimo you make good points.

If the 5DIII really does come in at or near $3,000 (which I think it probably will), that just gives Canon much more room to play in the enthusiast-semiprofessional-professional APS-C market. Possibly a 70D, 7DII and a 7DX?

Awinphoto, I agree that there is no urgency for a 7DII. I'd rather see a major leap forward instead of incremental changes and if I have to wait a bit for that, that's fine. Absolutely nothing wrong with the 7D as it stands. I do think, however, that it is unlikely they'll want to let Photokina pass by without a major body announcement and if the 5DIII gets announced within the next month, the next logical choice is the 7D.

It does seem like a lot of people want a full frame body for the price of an APS-C. I wonder if they expect Canon to throw in a free miniature unicorn as well. I suspect many of those who think APS-C is inferior will change their tune if the entry-level full frame goes to $3,000.

 

[DzPhotography]

It would not completely surprise me if they wanted the next generation of xD bodies to be exclusively FF.

what I don't get then is the 1d mkIV? If anything in the xD series is streamlined into FF, then how does this model fit with it's 1.3 crop?

I would gladly buy a 7D mkii with a 1.3 crop factor!

http://chuckalaimo.com/

The 1D MkIV was a compromise to achieve the high fps, which were not possible then in FF

 

[JonJT]

This forum has a serious problem conflating the needs and wants of crop shooters and FF shooters.

The 7D is not a stop-gap camera for those who cannot afford a FF in the interim (at least, not in terms of design and market placement). Some people need and want an APS-C and have no intention to move up to a FF, for whatever reason. Everyone needs to respect their desires, especially Canon.

Pixel peeping is not a useful way to compare the image quality of two different cameras. You MUST take intended viewing enlargement and distance into account. Otherwise, any comparison is meaningless. Having said that, though, I do believe Canon's current APS-C sensor is indeed worse than their FF counterpart and, certainly worse than Nikon's offerings. But, that is not necessarily something that all shooters cannot tolerate.

Canon would be absolutely negligent and positively moronic not to follow up the 7D with a superior offering. They need to provide Canon shooters with something that has, at least, comparable build quality, a comparable feature set, improved AF performance and a better sensor. Canon would be commuting APS-C suicide if they didn't. I don't care what it is called, so long as they make the damn camera.

Therefore, I will remain ambivalent about this rumor, if only because its implications have no effect upon the future of Canon's "King of the Crops" offering. Let me know when either, Canonrumors.com has a credible source for a spec list for the 7Ds spiritual successor or, has a credible source that says that Canon will no longer occupy the $1600-$2000 crop body market. I HIGHLY doubt the latter will come to fruition. But, if it does, I'll either switch to Nikon, buy a 7D and just be content, or just commit Seppuku and call it a day.

 

[awinphoto]

Chuck Alaimo you make good points.

If the 5DIII really does come in at or near $3,000 (which I think it probably will), that just gives Canon much more room to play in the enthusiast-semiprofessional-professional APS-C market. Possibly a 70D, 7DII and a 7DX?

Awinphoto, I agree that there is no urgency for a 7DII. I'd rather see a major leap forward instead of incremental changes and if I have to wait a bit for that, that's fine. Absolutely nothing wrong with the 7D as it stands. I do think, however, that it is unlikely they'll want to let Photokina pass by without a major body announcement and if the 5DIII gets announced within the next month, the next logical choice is the 7D.

It does seem like a lot of people want a full frame body for the price of an APS-C. I wonder if they expect Canon to throw in a free miniature unicorn as well. I suspect many of those who think APS-C is inferior will change their tune if the entry-level full frame goes to $3,000.

well shoot at that price point they could add a programmable tv remote and a coffee maker into the next camera, haha. I think with the anticipation and hype of the new 5d3 and the implications of the new Full Frame, that coupled with the 1dx, could carry Canon throughout the calendar year as far as sales and media hype. I feel much like the 7d original was, it's going to be more market driven than out of life cycle. If the market demands it and if there's stiff competition against the 7d, then you could see canon come out with a new Juggernaut of a camera, but have a feeling it will be early next year, but i could be wrong.

 

[Maui5150]

Now 5D2 focus, shutter lag, shutter noise, these are other issue altogether... the 7D is a real upgrade in each of these, which is why a FF 5D/7D merge makes so much sense!

I can't say I really understand this at all. Why does the 7D line need to be deleted in order to improve the next 5D? Surely it would make more sense to just... improve the next 5D. I don't see how certain features in the 7D line precludes them from being in any future 5D. Most of these features are simply because the camera is newer.

I see it as this... To make improvements, really solid improvements to the 7D, it likely should push it closer to the 2000 - 2200 range... Even as so, with the sensor side being so close, and if the next 5D does get higher FPS and AF, then it becomes the question of is it worth Canon having a $3K FF and a $2K or so crop that are pretty much identical other then one is crop and one is FF...

At the same time below it you have an $800 or so xxxD series Mid Consumer level camera and I imagine the 70D become more of a $1200 body and gets an upgrade.

And really... while the 10-22 is a great lens, the 17-40 is pretty much a swap both in price and maybe a slight step down in IQ, but not by much.

It costs money to produce and manufacture individual lines of lenses, especially if there is a smaller market. Makes a lot of sense to me for Canon to promote Pro bodies with Pro lenses the L series, have general purpose mid level EF lenses, and then have some more specific EF-S lenses to fill out the crop line.

I really don't think you will see Pro Level EF-S lenses, and while there are a few good ones out there, makes more sense to produce lenses someone can grow into and continue than to have to sell off when you upgrade.

 

[JonJT]

Now 5D2 focus, shutter lag, shutter noise, these are other issue altogether... the 7D is a real upgrade in each of these, which is why a FF 5D/7D merge makes so much sense!

I can't say I really understand this at all. Why does the 7D line need to be deleted in order to improve the next 5D? Surely it would make more sense to just... improve the next 5D. I don't see how certain features in the 7D line precludes them from being in any future 5D. Most of these features are simply because the camera is newer.

I see it as this... To make improvements, really solid improvements to the 7D, it likely should push it closer to the 2000 - 2200 range... Even as so, with the sensor side being so close, and if the next 5D does get higher FPS and AF, then it becomes the question of is it worth Canon having a $3K FF and a $2K or so crop that are pretty much identical other then one is crop and one is FF...

At the same time below it you have an $800 or so xxxD series Mid Consumer level camera and I imagine the 70D become more of a $1200 body and gets an upgrade.

And really... while the 10-22 is a great lens, the 17-40 is pretty much a swap both in price and maybe a slight step down in IQ, but not by much.

It costs money to produce and manufacture individual lines of lenses, especially if there is a smaller market. Makes a lot of sense to me for Canon to promote Pro bodies with Pro lenses the L series, have general purpose mid level EF lenses, and then have some more specific EF-S lenses to fill out the crop line.

I really don't think you will see Pro Level EF-S lenses, and while there are a few good ones out there, makes more sense to produce lenses someone can grow into and continue than to have to sell off when you upgrade.

You are assuming that everyone who shoots a Canon DSLR intends to move up to FF at some point. That is not necessarily true. I wish Canon knew this. I'd LOVE LOVE LOVE to have a 17-55 with L build quality and weather sealing.

Although, perhaps Canon doesn't care. Maybe they don't want to turn the APS-C standard into a fully featured system with every equivalent option, except sensor size.

 

[darrellrhodesmiller]

i love/hate my 7D.. (it really is a great camera)

but i really dont see how they can maintain both the 60D line and the 7D line.. it just doesnt make much sense. i do like the crop factor.. but there is no reason to have two brands so close together in terms of performance and price.

 

[awinphoto]

I see it as this... To make improvements, really solid improvements to the 7D, it likely should push it closer to the 2000 - 2200 range... Even as so, with the sensor side being so close, and if the next 5D does get higher FPS and AF, then it becomes the question of is it worth Canon having a $3K FF and a $2K or so crop that are pretty much identical other then one is crop and one is FF...

Nikon has been doing this with the D300s and the D700 with no hitches... minor differences in AF, speed, etc but one was FF and the other crop. The D300 is the exact reason that spurred the 7D... Having one as crop, one a full frame, with the 5d being as good if not slightly better to justify the premium in price and you're good to go.

And really... while the 10-22 is a great lens, the 17-40 is pretty much a swap both in price and maybe a slight step down in IQ, but not by much.

It costs money to produce and manufacture individual lines of lenses, especially if there is a smaller market. Makes a lot of sense to me for Canon to promote Pro bodies with Pro lenses the L series, have general purpose mid level EF lenses, and then have some more specific EF-S lenses to fill out the crop line.

I wouldn't say the 17-40 is a downgrade in IQ, personally... some say it's soft on corners on full frame cameras but I shot an interior glamor aircraft shot of a private charter company with it and the 5d and it was as good if not better than the 10-22 was on my crop cameras when I had it. It was printed at 19x13 and even at the extreme corners you can see the weaves of the fabric on the aircraft walls, threads in the carpet, crisp highlight detail glimmering off the wood. anywho, as you said, canon has put a lot of money into marketing EF-S lenses and those heavily invested in that glass wont want to part with them to go up to a 5d or 1D and pay a few thousand more just on glass to replace the lenses the cannot use anymore. I dont see the 7D as being one and done. I just also dont see a replacement any time soon

 

[BXL]

If this is true then we'll have a huge gap -

$1500 70D
and oh, if you want anything better:
$3000 5dmkiii

Will we? Both 70D and 5D Mk III are only rumors. We don't know the specs, we don't know their names and we don't know the prices.

7D: $ 1499
5D Mk II: $ 2399

If the 5D Mk III (or 5D X) will cost around $ 2999, most likely the price of successor of the 7D will be considerably higher as well, leaving enough room for a camera between it and the rebel line. That's why I don't believe the rumor that the xxD line of cameras will be dropped or that a 70D will replace the 7D.

 

[JonJT]

If this is true then we'll have a huge gap -

$1500 70D
and oh, if you want anything better:
$3000 5dmkiii

Will we? Both 70D and 5D Mk III are only rumors. We don't know the specs, we don't know their names and we don't know the prices.

7D: $ 1499
5D Mk II: $ 2399

If the 5D Mk III (or 5D X) will cost around $ 2999, most likely the price of successor of the 7D will be considerably higher as well, leaving enough room for a camera between it and the rebel line. That's why I don't believe the rumor that the xxD line of cameras will be dropped or that a 70D will replace the 7D.

Price won't really matter. Sure, if you priced the 7D successor at 2K and had the next closest APS-C at 800, you could stick another body in there around 1300 or 1400 but, if the feature set isn't rightly between those two bodies, Canon would be wasting their money and would do damage to their market share.

 

[BXL]

If this is true then we'll have a huge gap -

$1500 70D
and oh, if you want anything better:
$3000 5dmkiii

Will we? Both 70D and 5D Mk III are only rumors. We don't know the specs, we don't know their names and we don't know the prices.

7D: $ 1499
5D Mk II: $ 2399

If the 5D Mk III (or 5D X) will cost around $ 2999, most likely the price of successor of the 7D will be considerably higher as well, leaving enough room for a camera between it and the rebel line. That's why I don't believe the rumor that the xxD line of cameras will be dropped or that a 70D will replace the 7D.

Price won't really matter. Sure, if you priced the 7D successor at 2K and had the next closest APS-C at 800, you could stick another body in there around 1300 or 1400 but, if the feature set isn't rightly between those two bodies, Canon would be wasting their money and would do damage to their market share.

The main difference between the 600D, 60D and the 7D is the AF, the number of cross-type sensors, fps, size of the viewfinder etc. IMO there are enough features to differentiate between those three products lines (consume, prosumer, pro).

 

[dtaylor]

I should know as I own two 5DMarkII's and a 7D. I bought the 7D thinking it would be close to the 5D in image quality, or at least in the same ballpark. I was excited by its features and thought I could live with a small drop in IQ for the sake of all those other goodies. Unfortunately it's not even close.

I get so beyond tired of this nonsense. I have made 24" prints from the two cameras and posted 100% crops online, and in both cases asked viewers to tell me which came from which camera. Note that I did not show them labeled views, but unlabeled ones. Not once has any viewer successfully done this. Over a dozen print views and well past a hundred online views and not one person could even guess correctly.

At high ISO, there's a difference. At low to mid ISO they're not only close, they're so close that it's impossible to tell them apart in a real test. I regularly make large prints and I consider paper choice to have a greater impact on final IQ than the choice between these two sensors.

If you show a human being two identical prints...same exact image...and tell them one came from a model A camera but one came from a much better model B camera, the average viewer will tell you they see the difference and the B print is much better even though the prints are identical. Some will even go into great detail as to why B is better! This is human nature. It's the inescapable way our brains are wired. The true test is to show unlabeled images and ask which, if any, is better, or if they are the same. And guess what happens in those tests...

1. You have a fantastically featured awesome little camera with great autofocus, button layout, flash trigger capabilities, weather sealing, responsiveness...yadda yadda yadda.... but with a horrible sensor

The sensor is fantastic and is better for those in focal length limited situations.

That lineup is just whack and they should really do a sensor swap. Canon will address this by putting crop sensors solely back into the XXD line with the 70D, and boosting the features of the 5DmarkIII so they meet or surpass the 7D - guaranteed. Well shots per second *might* be down a bit, and there will be no onboard flash but these are the only exceptions I can think of).

That and pixels on target. I use a 7D heavily for sports photography, and I do not want to sacrifice the crop factor or a single frame per second. I have numerous 24" prints that involved more cropping with a final image size of 9-10 MP. On a 5D2 or a theoretical 5D3 at 22 MP I would have ended up with 3-4 MP, not enough for the print.

Canon needs a pro crop body geared for sports. The 7D basically filled that role. Perhaps a 70D would as well, but my fear is that they would cripple it somehow to make it clearly lower in the lineup than the 5D3. Which would put us back to the days when Nikon had the only pro crop body.

A 61pt AF 22 MP 5D3 will compete against the 1Dx, but not the D800. I can tell you right now if Canon doesn't have an answer for the D800 this year at a comparable price point, I will have a D800. The 5D2 was successful because it was squarely targeted at wedding/portrait/landscape/studio work with 21 MP and high quality video at a much lower cost than Nikon's 25 MP body. Now Nikon is offering those users 36 MP at a comparable price point, and I know one pro wedding photographer who has already ordered one even though most of his current equipment is Canon.

Put simply, for sports work I want fast frame rates and crop because I'm typically FL limited. For landscapes I want MP, MP, MP. Canon could possibly fill both roles with a FF body that offered 8 fps and 35 MP or more (more would be better). But if they do that at the D800 price point, then what's the point of the 1Dx?

If your 7D ego has just been bruised then I suggest you get yourself a full frame camera and start pixel peeping and see the "full frame light" my friend

Been there, done that, didn't see the light, and neither can anyone else when put to the test. I hate pixel peepers any way. I make prints. I don't sit in a dark room all night studying images for flaws at 400%.

 

[dtaylor]

I would gladly buy a 7D mkii with a 1.3 crop factor!

Why? It won't have the high ISO of FF nor the crop advantage of 1.6x. And it can't use the excellent, low cost UWA zooms available for crop. I think I would purposely ignore an APS-H body at this point.

 

[unfocused]

If your 7D ego has just been bruised then I suggest you get yourself a full frame camera and start pixel peeping and see the "full frame light" my friend

Been there, done that, didn't see the light, and neither can anyone else when put to the test. I hate pixel peepers any way. I make prints. I don't sit in a dark room all night studying images for flaws at 400%.

Exactly!

Price won't really matter. Sure, if you priced the 7D successor at 2K and had the next closest APS-C at 800, you could stick another body in there around 1300 or 1400 but, if the feature set isn't rightly between those two bodies, Canon would be wasting their money and would do damage to their market share.

Ah, yes. The old problem of product differentiation and converging technology. As technology improves, the perceivable differences between products shrink. All of the camera manufacturers are facing this dilemma. It's got to be real hell for them to try find ways to meet consumer demand, while simultaneously finding the right mixture of features for each product. One mistake and you've undercut your product line.

Good news is we consumers win because the products get better. Bad news is the price tags keep going up.

 

[aloper]

Actually, not providing a follow up to the 7D does make sense if you think about a mirrorless camera coming soon...Remove the 7D from the high end and move everything up below it up one notch and now you have room at the lower to mid price range for a mirrorless camera...

So....
1Dx - $6900
5D X (?) - $3999-$4200
5D Mk3 - $2999
70D - $1999
T4i / Rebels - $1000-1500
Mirrorless - $899-1200
GX1 - Reduced to $699

 

[AshtonNekolah]

no surprise here, and the 7D should of bin what the 60D is, after moving from the 40D to ff I always assumed that it would of bin the D line and since the 50D the last good quality body in its class went cheapo on the 60D its nice to welcome back the quality D line cameras, I always thought the 7D was a soft touch 5D but when i was told its the new line, that was kinda sad. why have all these names all over the place, somethings should n;t be changed especially when it works well. leave the rebel line the D line and have the Mark line. Im not sure what people call high end these days, but if a camera with a strong built body is considered one, well then the all the D up to the 50d is well built, and whats with the sd card anyway, i say leave that for PAS cameras bigger bodies need more beef inside out and for storage nothings looks as meaty as a CF Card. But its great to welcome back a new 70D if so and the 80D,90D and so on. ;D

 

[the_limper]

Consider me one of those oddballs but I'd be bothered by this because I like my 60Dand I'd hate to see the line get moved up in cost and in size. It's a perfect fit for me...

I like the size and I don't like the larger size of the 7D nor do I like the size of the smaller xxx line. I upgraded to the 60D for the size and features. Merging the xD line into the xxD line just won't serve people like me at all.

 

[MacPaul]

I received a suggestion that Canon will not be making a sequel to the 7D. In other words, no 7D Mark II. The 60D replacement (70D?) will move back up to its previous position in the lineup. Does that mean the end of the 60D “super rebel” style camera as well?

Very simple, where's the problem?
70D (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/44755254/EOS-7D-Mk.jpg) based on 7D technology, 7D AF, smaller body, rest remains the same except for Digic V and the usual improvements, please stay at 18MP and reduce noise, price tag should be less than Sony Alpha 77, because Sony puts a certain amount on pressure on the other companies via price. This would be the top of the line APS-C for serious amateurs or how they could be called.

EOS 650D takes position of 60D, getting 7D AF (without some functions like spot AF if you wish), back wheel and faster continous shooting while retaining its price tag to compete with Alpha 65.
EOS 600D will be offered parallel as Canon always does when they bring out a new Rebel.

EOS 5D gets splitted in one high res version to counter the D800 for roughly the same price tag and one version with 18MP EOS 5DX (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/44755254/EOS-5DX.jpg) to replace the 7D for 1000€/$ less; dual Digic, 7-8 fps for that camera and please no video and reduced controls, get back to photography without movie functions, at least with one model.

With that lineup Canon can counter anything from Nikon (D800) and Sonys two Alphas. If necessary, they could still make a 7D Mk. II to counter the D400. In fact, I'd prefer that because even with the 5D split and a successor to the 7D Canon would still have the same camera count as before when they had two 1Ds.

This all is no problem for Canon if they'd just move their asses and show some more innovations; they have been luggish for too long for being the market leader.

 

[AshtonNekolah]

I really think this is a good move. I've said it before http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,2969.msg62520.html#msg62520, and I'll say it again - Canon should never have made the 7D as good as it is functionally with a crop sensor. It's like putting a lawn-mower engine into a BMW convertible.

I should know as I own two 5DMarkII's and a 7D. I bought the 7D thinking it would be close to the 5D in image quality, or at least in the same ballpark. I was excited by its features and thought I could live with a small drop in IQ for the sake of all those other goodies. Unfortunately it's not even close. Makes sense though - the 5D Mark II has 2.56 times the surface area for the sensor, and sensor technology improves, but rarely by that amount in a year. The crop factor at 1.6x really does make a big difference.

So the current lineup is just freaking bizarre. In fact it's horrible. Here's why:

1. You have a fantastically featured awesome little camera with great autofocus, button layout, flash trigger capabilities, weather sealing, responsiveness...yadda yadda yadda.... but with a horrible sensor (by pro standards OK - compared to 5D Mark II) that make shots look very point-n-click like in the noise department, and even in the low light color rendition. That's the current 7D.

2. You have a camera with with pretty ordinary controls and features, poor environmental sealing, and one hell of an image sensor that carries it through sales time and time again (and pretty good video too I'm told). That's the 5D Mark II. It's so good in the IQ dept I bought two

That lineup is just whack and they should really do a sensor swap. Canon will address this by putting crop sensors solely back into the XXD line with the 70D, and boosting the features of the 5DmarkIII so they meet or surpass the 7D - guaranteed. Well shots per second *might* be down a bit, and there will be no onboard flash but these are the only exceptions I can think of). If they did kill the 7D line and put most of it's great features into the next 5D, then look out for a 5Dx moniker.

This is not a "hater's gonna hate". This is just telling it brutally as it is. I really wanted to love the 7D. I actually feel pretty cheated as I read the DPReview review on the 7D before buying and nothing gave me the indication that it was as bad as it is compared to the 5D2 image quality. Still I've learned my lesson and will never go back to any crop sensor - it's full frame or medium format from here on in. A Lightroom crop and sharpen will probably get me just as good a results as the sensor "crop factor" of the 7D, if I don't have a lens long enough for what I'm shooting. If your 7D ego has just been bruised then I suggest you get yourself a full frame camera and start pixel peeping and see the "full frame light" my friend - especially at ISO 400 and above, but it's still readily apparent at ISO100.

I welcome this news. Bravo Canon. Now just get the 5Dx right! (edit:fixed typos)

Im in the same boat as you 1000% no more crops for me either.

 

[bonedaddy.p7]

Actually, not providing a follow up to the 7D does make sense if you think about a mirrorless camera coming soon...Remove the 7D from the high end and move everything up below it up one notch and now you have room at the lower to mid price range for a mirrorless camera...

So....
1Dx - $6900
5D X (?) - $3999-$4200
5D Mk3 - $2999
70D - $1999
T4i / Rebels - $1000-1500
Mirrorless - $899-1200
GX1 - Reduced to $699

at those prices Canon would be pricing themselves out of the market. When you are 1K over the competition (5DX) it makes jumping ship MUCH easier as many pros that I know might have many lenses, but only use one or 2 regularly. so a D800 with one lens makes it for all intents and purposes the same price as just the body of the 5DX. At 2K the 70D would have to be revolutionary, not just evolutionary. and the 650D at 1k means that the competition will eat them alive on new sales which are critical because that is when new customers buy into a system, and let's face it, most of the market that is at the xxxD level typically doesn't have the camera budget to switch back and forth between systems that much.

While I honestly want a 7DII, I don't care what they call it so long as the pricing stays below 1800-2K and they retain the body style and features.