No 7D Mark II? [CR1]

[maxxevv]

Sorry but no, EF-S lenses are designed for APS-C sensors and can not be used for larger sensors. EF-S lenses extend further into the body therefore the larger mirror on an APS-H or FF would hit the back of the lens. EF-S lenses also produce a smaller image circle designed to cover an APS-C sensor only.

Perhaps its not clear in what I wrote. Let me elaborate.

In-camera crop on an APS-H sensor to use an APS-C lens isn't too far of a stretch isn't it ? The mirror of the 1.3crop isn't that big compared really and with some tweaks, it may fit an EF-S lens.

There was a story / article of a guy who did something of the sort with his 1D and mounted an EF-S lens, albeit with some minor modifications to his lens only. The height difference between an APS-C and APS-H is less than 5mm.

So, it might be possible to tweak the mirror in an APS-H camera to have sufficient clearance for an EF-S lens' rear protrusion.

Thus an APS-H camera with an APS-C crop mode by allowing it to accept EF-S lenses. Especially if the AF module was designed for APS-C in the first place. Possible ?? ;D

 

[D.Sim]

Sorry but no, EF-S lenses are designed for APS-C sensors and can not be used for larger sensors. EF-S lenses extend further into the body therefore the larger mirror on an APS-H or FF would hit the back of the lens. EF-S lenses also produce a smaller image circle designed to cover an APS-C sensor only.

Perhaps its not clear in what I wrote. Let me elaborate.

In-camera crop on an APS-H sensor to use an APS-C lens isn't too far of a stretch isn't it ? The mirror of the 1.3crop isn't that big compared really and with some tweaks, it may fit an EF-S lens.

There was a story / article of a guy who did something of the sort with his 1D and mounted an EF-S lens, albeit with some minor modifications to his lens only. The height difference between an APS-C and APS-H is less than 5mm.

So, it might be possible to tweak the mirror in an APS-H camera to have sufficient clearance for an EF-S lens' rear protrusion.

Thus an APS-H camera with an APS-C crop mode by allowing it to accept EF-S lenses. Especially if the AF module was designed for APS-C in the first place. Possible ?? ;D

Again, no. the whole idea of the EF-S lens is that the rear element is *really really* close to the sensor. Just how you intend to tweak a mirror so that it becomes smaller but still covers the same area is beyond me.

 

[wickidwombat]

Sorry but no, EF-S lenses are designed for APS-C sensors and can not be used for larger sensors. EF-S lenses extend further into the body therefore the larger mirror on an APS-H or FF would hit the back of the lens. EF-S lenses also produce a smaller image circle designed to cover an APS-C sensor only.

Perhaps its not clear in what I wrote. Let me elaborate.

In-camera crop on an APS-H sensor to use an APS-C lens isn't too far of a stretch isn't it ? The mirror of the 1.3crop isn't that big compared really and with some tweaks, it may fit an EF-S lens.

There was a story / article of a guy who did something of the sort with his 1D and mounted an EF-S lens, albeit with some minor modifications to his lens only. The height difference between an APS-C and APS-H is less than 5mm.

So, it might be possible to tweak the mirror in an APS-H camera to have sufficient clearance for an EF-S lens' rear protrusion.

Thus an APS-H camera with an APS-C crop mode by allowing it to accept EF-S lenses. Especially if the AF module was designed for APS-C in the first place. Possible ?? ;D

I think its physically possible to do and then why not consider making it mirrorless! no problems with mirrors hitting lenses anymore.

also not sure how many here have used nikons but say you put a DX18-200 on a full frame FX film body you only get very severe corner vignetting not unlike what the tamron 18-270 delivers that people seem to put up with. on the FX digitals the electonics crop it to 1.5 for you so you dont get that.
Even using the APS-C EF-S lenses on the APS-H sensor would only result in some corner darkening anyway then let the user crop as desired

I think an APS-H with APS-C in camera crop that can use EF and EF-S lenses would be cool especially if you get boosted frame rate with the APS-C mode too. If that was canons entry to the mirrorless segment it would set the bar pretty high for the sonys and panasonics to chase and the nikon v1 and j1 would be outdated instantly

 

[AprilForever]

Cropping will never replace framing the image well in the first place.

Well, yes and no, right? The D800 has a DX Mode that turns it into a crop-sensor camera. The only reason it can do this is because it has a huge number to start out with and it pre-crops it for you down to a 16MP camera. I don't know how this looks in the viewfinder or how it works in practice. It will be interesting.

Think of all the arguments that would just vanish if they came out with an über 5D that had enough MPs to be able to put it into an 16MP crop mode. Also, if you put an EF-S lens on it, it automatically senses it and puts the camera into crop mode.

Yeah, this is pretty much what the D800 does. Cool, right?

Even if you could mount an ef-s lens, it would get caught by the mirror, which is much larger on a FF camera.

What I still can't get is why anyone wants a fullframe 7D. Get a 5d! You speak of autofocus. Get a 1Ds mk III. You speak of price. Get a D800. You say you still want it cheaper. Many have posted they want a 7D FF for not much more than a 7D. This totally makes no sense.

The 7D is a great camera because of it's APS-C sensor. Bloat the sensor, and destroy the camera.

 

[briansquibb]

What I still can't get is why anyone wants a fullframe 7D. Get a 5d! You speak of autofocus. Get a 1Ds mk III. You speak of price. Get a D800. You say you still want it cheaper. Many have posted they want a 7D FF for not much more than a 7D. This totally makes no sense.

The 7D is a great camera because of it's APS-C sensor. Bloat the sensor, and destroy the camera.

Not everyone wants a ff 7D - there have been at least a couple of us pushing for an APS-H 7D - borrowing a lot from the venerable 1D4

 

[aj1575]

My two cents on this. The 7D is really a little bit odd; if one digit (xD) canons are for the pros, then the 7D was a bit weak. On the other hand there are are 3 consumer bodies (xxxxD, xxxD, xxD). This lineup somehow makes sense, just that the 7D is not really pro-grade.

This is how I see the future lineup from Canon: The 1Dx is for sport and wildlife shooters (high speed with 12fps, high ISO up to 200k). Then there will be the 5DmkIII, it looks at the moment that it won't compete with the D800, but I can see where it could be placed. the 5D will be for photojournalists who also like to make movies. The 5D is smaller more mobile package then the 1D, emphasis will be on good high ISO (low light ability, and video)
But there is somethin missing in the pro sector, and this is the landscape shooters. And here could the often rumored 3D fit in, which will be aimed at the D800. A camera with high resolution (40+MP) but a slower speed.

With these 3 pro bodies, there is no room for a 7D, so the xxD will move up a little (to where the 50D was). The difference between a 600D and 60D is quite narrow at the moment, and I think it makes sense to widen this gap.

Conclusion: 3 consumer bodies (entry, standard, advanced) and 3 pro bodies (Action, Landscape, Photojournalist) from canon, this would be a nice and logic lineup.

 

[maxxevv]

Again, no. the whole idea of the EF-S lens is that the rear element is *really really* close to the sensor. Just how you intend to tweak a mirror so that it becomes smaller but still covers the same area is beyond me.

Take a look at the difference between the rear mounts of an EF-S lens and EF one. Compare.

Then look at the physical dimensions of APS-H and compare to that of the APS-C (Canon). They are a lot closer in size compared to the differences between them and FF.

In any case, its just a conjuncture which I think isn't too far fetched if Canon wants a premium for its 'sub-pro' and 'super advanced' camera. It would not alienate EF-S users and at the same time provides a premium upgrade path too.

But who knows... Canon may have other ideas.

 

[Birdshooter]

Conclusion: 3 consumer bodies (entry, standard, advanced) and 3 pro bodies (Action, Landscape, Photojournalist) from canon, this would be a nice and logic lineup.

Please bear in mind that in your setup the price of the Pro body for Actions is 3 times as high as the one for Photojournalist. That is strange if it is all the same Pro line.

This is how I see it:

1-series: Top of the Hill, best in everything. Pro

3-Series: High MP FF, low fps, Pro
5-Series: Mid MP FF, very good in high ISO, Pro
7-Series: Mid MP APS-C, high fps, Pro

Then the Advanced bodies in the xxD series, the Consumer bodies in the xxxD series and the entry level xxxxD series.

There is a market out there for Pro APS-C bodies, and if Canon don't realize that , then they ask people to first buy a body which is priced 3 times as high, and then combine it with long lenses which are double the price.
If the strategy of Canon is that they only want a selected croud being able to invest so much money, then indeed it was the last 7D out there, but also the last 5D and many other series as they will be killing their company.

The mass is paying for the R&D for the top Pro lines. BUT you need to keep the mass happy, and there is a mass out there for a Pro APS-C body!

 

[nicku]

Again, no. the whole idea of the EF-S lens is that the rear element is *really really* close to the sensor. Just how you intend to tweak a mirror so that it becomes smaller but still covers the same area is beyond me.

EXACTLY like Nikon have done.....

 

[D.Sim]

Again, no. the whole idea of the EF-S lens is that the rear element is *really really* close to the sensor. Just how you intend to tweak a mirror so that it becomes smaller but still covers the same area is beyond me.

EXACTLY like Nikon have done.....

You do realise Nikon's DX doesn't work the same way as Canon's EF-S?

 

[nicku]

Again, no. the whole idea of the EF-S lens is that the rear element is *really really* close to the sensor. Just how you intend to tweak a mirror so that it becomes smaller but still covers the same area is beyond me.

EXACTLY like Nikon have done.....

You do realise Nikon's DX doesn't work the same way as Canon's EF-S?

i meant in technology point of view....

...and is not very hard ( in terms of technology) to adapt the APS-H mirror to be compatible with EF-s lenses.

 

[Edwin Herdman]

No 7D? I have to say - to hell with this rumor. Leave the crop sensor users something capable (and affordable). I'm definitely not going to be cheerleading for any 5D / 7D line compression, unless they manage to keep pixel density the same (i.e. the same "reach" for my lenses) in distance limited applications like birding, while keeping or even boosting per-pixel ISO performance, and also keeping the price reasonable and keeping the other pro-like features of the 7D. Tall order, really. I suppose all it would take is a bigger sensor, but I wonder if they really could slap in the pentaprism and AF sensor for the 1D or 5D X units. Doubt it, and I don't want to get something worse in that respect than the 7D has.

 

[Edwin Herdman]

Again, no. the whole idea of the EF-S lens is that the rear element is *really really* close to the sensor. Just how you intend to tweak a mirror so that it becomes smaller but still covers the same area is beyond me.

EXACTLY like Nikon have done.....

You do realise Nikon's DX doesn't work the same way as Canon's EF-S?

i meant in technology point of view....

...and is not very hard ( in terms of technology) to adapt the APS-H mirror to be compatible with EF-s lenses.

You aren't guaranteed the EF-S lenses will cover a full image circle. That pretty much kills the discussion, I think.

Personally, 1.3X might not be a totally terrible compromise, though it would alter the field of view I get out of my lenses. So long as any change meets the criteria I laid out above I'm down with it...but only if it meets ALL of them.

 

[darkmatter2k12]

Can't belive this rumor. If Canon decide to do something like this it will be like shooting in his legs.

 

[nicku]

Again, no. the whole idea of the EF-S lens is that the rear element is *really really* close to the sensor. Just how you intend to tweak a mirror so that it becomes smaller but still covers the same area is beyond me.

EXACTLY like Nikon have done.....

You do realise Nikon's DX doesn't work the same way as Canon's EF-S?

i meant in technology point of view....

...and is not very hard ( in terms of technology) to adapt the APS-H mirror to be compatible with EF-s lenses.

You aren't guaranteed the EF-S lenses will cover a full image circle. That pretty much kills the discussion, I think.

Personally, 1.3X might not be a totally terrible compromise, though it would alter the field of view I get out of my lenses. So long as any change meets the criteria I laid out above I'm down with it...but only if it meets ALL of them.

No one says to keep the full resolution of a APS-H sensor when an EF-S lens is used. I mean when you will use a EF-s lens on a... say... 20MP APS-H sensor you will have 12-13MP effective resolution ( the camera will crop the 1.3 sensor to 1.6).

 

[AvTvM]

No one says to keep the full resolution of a APS-H sensor when an EF-S lens is used. I mean when you will use a EF-s lens on a... say... 20MP APS-H sensor you will have 12-13MP effective resolution ( the camera will crop the 1.3 sensor to 1.6).

wrong!

1. EF-S lenses do NOT cover the image circle of APS-H (Crop 1.3x) - and even if you get a format-filling image at some focal lengths, vignetting will be really bad and IQ will be terrible towards the edges/corners.

2. Especially the rear element of the EF-S 10-22 may very well be hit by the larger mirror in an APS-H camera - as long as we assume it will be a DSLR and not a mirrorless APS-H camera body.

3. Unfortunately Canonhas was dead wrong to introduce the EF-S mount for its APS-C lenses (Crop 1.6x). Nikon has done it 100% right and implemented the only sensible solution: only ONE lens mount for any and all lenses - FX and DX. And NO rear elements sticking into the body so they may be hit by a larger FF camera mirror. And especially the D4 and D800 offer perfect cropping solutions by automacially masking off parts of the viewfinder if a crop lens (DX) is mounted. Although I like my Crop camera (7D) and my 3 good EF-S lenses (10-22, 17-55, 60 Macro) I can cleraly tell how inferior Canon's EF-S concept is.

4. Actually, Canon is not even taking advantage of the theoretical EF-S advantage. Only ONE EF-S lens (10-22) has a rear element sticking into the mirror box to be closer to the sensor. ALL other existing EF-S lenses could have implemented with an EF mount without any changes to their optical design. And even the EF-S 10-22 could have ben quite easily designed to also work with an EF mount ... Nikon had no problem designing their AF-S 10-24 DX to fit into their regular F-mount.

5. I have no doubt whatsoever, that there will be a 7D successor with APS-C sensor (crop 1.6x). It will be better than the current 7D. It will most likely only be announced some time after Nikon launches their new DX pro-body (D400 or whatever they may call it).

 

[maxxevv]

No one says to keep the full resolution of a APS-H sensor when an EF-S lens is used. I mean when you will use a EF-s lens on a... say... 20MP APS-H sensor you will have 12-13MP effective resolution ( the camera will crop the 1.3 sensor to 1.6).

Precisely !!!

 

[wickidwombat]

No one says to keep the full resolution of a APS-H sensor when an EF-S lens is used. I mean when you will use a EF-s lens on a... say... 20MP APS-H sensor you will have 12-13MP effective resolution ( the camera will crop the 1.3 sensor to 1.6).

wrong!

1. EF-S lenses do NOT cover the image circle of APS-H (Crop 1.3x) - and even if you get a format-filling image at some focal lengths, vignetting will be really bad and IQ will be terrible towards the edges/corners.

2. Especially the rear element of the EF-S 10-22 may very well be hit by the larger mirror in an APS-H camera - as long as we assume it will be a DSLR and not a mirrorless APS-H camera body.

3. Unfortunately Canonhas was dead wrong to introduce the EF-S mount for its APS-C lenses (Crop 1.6x). Nikon has done it 100% right and implemented the only sensible solution: only ONE lens mount for any and all lenses - FX and DX. And NO rear elements sticking into the body so they may be hit by a larger FF camera mirror. And especially the D4 and D800 offer perfect cropping solutions by automacially masking off parts of the viewfinder if a crop lens (DX) is mounted. Although I like my Crop camera (7D) and my 3 good EF-S lenses (10-22, 17-55, 60 Macro) I can cleraly tell how inferior Canon's EF-S concept is.

4. Actually, Canon is not even taking advantage of the theoretical EF-S advantage. Only ONE EF-S lens (10-22) has a rear element sticking into the mirror box to be closer to the sensor. ALL other existing EF-S lenses could have implemented with an EF mount without any changes to their optical design. And even the EF-S 10-22 could have ben quite easily designed to also work with an EF mount ... Nikon had no problem designing their AF-S 10-24 DX to fit into their regular F-mount.

5. I have no doubt whatsoever, that there will be a 7D successor with APS-C sensor (crop 1.6x). It will be better than the current 7D. It will most likely only be announced some time after Nikon launches their new DX pro-body (D400 or whatever they may call it).

i think you missed the point
1) crop the aps-h image to aps-c same way nikon does and since its processing a smaller image boost frame rate accordingly, (the vignetting isnt that bad anyway as i said before i've seen worse out of tamron ef lenses)
2) make it mirrorless problem solved

 

[briansquibb]

i think you missed the point
1) crop the aps-h image to aps-c same way nikon does and since its processing a smaller image boost frame rate accordingly, (the vignetting isnt that bad anyway as i said before i've seen worse out of tamron ef lenses)
2) make it mirrorless problem solved

APS-H mirrorless
22mp
10fps
takes EF and EF-S lens
light weight and compact

- that would put the cat amongst the pidgeons

 

[wickidwombat]

i think you missed the point
1) crop the aps-h image to aps-c same way nikon does and since its processing a smaller image boost frame rate accordingly, (the vignetting isnt that bad anyway as i said before i've seen worse out of tamron ef lenses)
2) make it mirrorless problem solved

APS-H mirrorless
22mp
10fps
takes EF and EF-S lens
light weight and compact

- that would put the cat amongst the pidgeons

you've been reading my mind again