Off Brand: Sony Announces the Full-frame a7R III

SecureGSM

2 x 5D IV
Feb 26, 2017
2,376
1,246
there is a mega-bunch of Sony trolls coming around this place to leave stinky, disparaging remarks about Canon system and it's users when themselves don't like or use Canon cameras.
Neuro is in his own rights in doing what he is doing. If you do not like Canon gear or do not feel like you are being in company of like minded individuals, then please do yourself and us a favour and leave to Sony centric resource. And please take those Sony trolls with you.

that1guyy said:
Just curious why you keep commenting on this thread, only to make disparaging remarks about Sony and its users, when you yourself don't like or use their cameras?

Bit pathetic.
 

Orangutan

EOS 5D Mark IV
Sep 25, 2010
2,140
3
that1guyy said:
neuroanatomist said:
[quote author='I am unbiased' Rishi]
To summarize it in a number at base ISO: 13.6 EV at the pixel, or for a 42.4MP file.
[quote author='I am unbiased' Rishi]
As for Sony's marketing, it sounds like the claim of 15 EV is believable, but only technically if you consider how your images look when shrunk to 8MP files. To be fair, there's some benefit to comparing dynamic range figures after resizing camera outputs to 8MP, since it's a common basis for comparison that doesn't penalize cameras for having higher resolution (and therefore smaller pixels).

Translation: "I want to believe it because I like Sony so much. But I'm not biased. Hey, can someone lend me a handkerchief to wipe this brown stuff off my nose?"
[/quote]

Just curious why you keep commenting on this thread, only to make disparaging remarks about Sony and its users, when you yourself don't like or use their cameras?

Bit pathetic.
[/quote]

Can you provide examples? I haven't seen anyone disparage the brand (generally) or its users; they've merely pointed out certain features of the hardware and service that didn't meet their expectations. In the one case, Neuroanatomist has pointed out that one DPR reviewer has...er...adjusted his values based on which brand he reviews.
 

Orangutan

EOS 5D Mark IV
Sep 25, 2010
2,140
3
SecureGSM said:
there is a mega-bunch of Sony trolls coming around this place to leave stinky, disparaging remarks about Canon system and it's users when themselves don't like or use Canon cameras.
Neuro is in his own rights in doing what he is doing. If you do not like Canon gear or do not feel like you are being in company of like minded individuals, then please do yourself and us a favour and leave to Sony centric resource. And please take those Sony trolls with you.

that1guyy said:
Just curious why you keep commenting on this thread, only to make disparaging remarks about Sony and its users, when you yourself don't like or use their cameras?

Bit pathetic.

I have no trouble with people pointing out legitimate advantages of other brands, so long as it's done in a cordial manner. There are times that the characteristics of Sony sensors offer a real advantage, and it's OK to discuss that. It's wrong, unproductive and trollish to claim that a single characteristic poisons the brand.
 

SecureGSM

2 x 5D IV
Feb 26, 2017
2,376
1,246
Cordial Maner - is The key word.
There ar bunch of Sony trolls that ar just rude and unwashed trolls roaming around the forum.
I recall one yesterday was pointing out that apparently owning a Canon system is akin to heaving a small 10cm penis. Just how cordial is that. Look.. I and many others are here to learn and share experience. These trolling individuals (or bots) kill the spirit of this forum. Nice and simple: we here because we like Canon. It is perfectly fine that some people prefer to use an alternative Systems. No problems at all. I have a massive problem though with individuals that have no idea about what they are talking about and being annoying as hell insisting that I have to jump ship as I am an idiot by using Canon and so on and so forth. Nor do I care about them leaving Canon system.
I wish them well and do not disturb, please. I busy mastering my Canon system.

Neuro, thank you for kicking trolling a$$holes around this place.
 

snoke

EOS RP
Jul 20, 2017
306
47
privatebydesign said:
The DR (my dick is bigger than yours) discussion is a dead horse, much to Rishi's dismay. He might write in earnest tones about how important it is but when you look at simple facts, like the actual numbers, the D850, the A7RIII and the older 5D MkIV are all within 0.8 of a stop of DR. The 5D MkIV and A7RIII are 0.5 stops of difference at maximum DR.

Is that really something to get out shape over?

When the 5D MkIII was trailing the competition by nearly three stops there was a point to be made, now, not so much........

Good summary DR discussion. Only "wow" now Nikon D850 @ISO 50.

Next DPR special topic? Bet: shutter sound.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jul 21, 2010
24,764
2,425
snoke said:
Next DPR special topic? Bet: shutter sound.

Do you mean how silent it can be, or do you mean how aesthetically pleasing is the electronically generated artificial shutter noise? ;)
 

OSOK

EOS M50
Jul 30, 2017
44
2
privatebydesign said:
The DR (my dick is bigger than yours) discussion is a dead horse, much to Rishi's dismay. He might write in earnest tones about how important it is but when you look at simple facts, like the actual numbers, the D850, the A7RIII and the older 5D MkIV are all within 0.8 of a stop of DR. The 5D MkIV and A7RIII are 0.5 stops of difference at maximum DR.

Is that really something to get out shape over?

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20IV,Nikon%20D850,Sony%20ILCE-7RM3

When the 5D MkIII was trailing the competition by nearly three stops there was a point to be made, now, not so much........

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%205D%20Mark%20III,Nikon%20D810,Sony%20ILCE-7RM2


The 5D4 does have the banding issue.

Although, in my testing I was able to reproduce it - it was under insanely stupid levels of under exposure.

Literally, +4 or +5 stops increase and/or combined with +100 shadow increase (Lightroom).

The weakest underexposure I could do before this would occur required adjustments of +3 stops and ~80-100+ on shadows.

Anything exposed brighter than that, which still was for the most part - an almost completely dark image with some bright things to the left - did not exhibit this issue.

Anyway, my point is -- the +5 shadow and exposure lifting crowd scoffs at the 5D4's DR. Not only is it not as a good as Sony/Nikon, but it has issues with extreme adjustments causing banding not seen in the Sony/Nikon. This is Canon's first generation of on-chip ADC and high DR sensors...so they might be working out the bugs.

Personally, I think images like that, even lifted very well because of a great sensor - are still garbage and such "photography" isn't photography. We're talking in the realm of +5 stop HDR. I know I know...Sony can give you an HDR image in a moving scene where you can't do bracketing with Canon by lifting +5. Ok, they got that one. Enjoy it.

By moving subject, I will assume human beings in an a super high DR scene -- I will use strobes or flash. In the end, it will just look better anyway.

As I said before, these Sony people are like a new generation of photographers that significantly dispense with the use of artificial lighting even in extreme situations. They rely on sliders in post. They are very much more dependent on post processing and while I have nothing to back this up, it is my experience that on average, their images have more processing done to them. To their credit, in a world where most people are satisfied with cell phone picture quality - they can get away with it.

Too bad they don't realize there's no free lunch. There's no substitute in post for a large octabox powered with a strobe and the very high-end, beautiful portraiture look you get. No shadow lifting and tweaking in any program can recreate that.


Let's not forget that the DR issue was the main topic for years because that was the ONLY area they could beat up on Canon about. Now that Canon has caught up in that area for all practical purposes - they are now shifting to offering better speed and buffer in midrange bodies. And also in number of AF points (and bells and whistles)....
 

ecqns

EOS M6 Mark II
Feb 4, 2015
98
0
OSOK said:
As I said before, these Sony people are like a new generation of photographers that significantly dispense with the use of artificial lighting even in extreme situations. They rely on sliders in post. They are very much more dependent on post processing and while I have nothing to back this up, it is my experience that on average, their images have more processing done to them. To their credit, in a world where most people are satisfied with cell phone picture quality - they can get away with it.

Too bad they don't realize there's no free lunch. There's no substitute in post for a large octabox powered with a strobe and the very high-end, beautiful portraiture look you get. No shadow lifting and tweaking in any program can recreate that.

There are many relevant applications for wide DR other than portraiture - that's probably the last place one would need a few stops of latitude. For my architecture work using the Sony a7R and then a7R2 has been an invaluable addition to my professional toolbox. Not something just to talk about online. Yes you can say bracket to get the DR you need with a Canon camera (say the 5Dr - need the pixels) but what if there are elements in an image you need? Light is a certain way, people are just where you need them, a certain expression? Bracketing isn't always the best solution.

Actually my last Canon cameras were the 5DMk2 and 6D, the banding was terrible when I needed to dig into the shadows. I wouldn't say the Sonys are perfect - not even close, but the DR, real live view and the biggest surprise was the tilt screen which I use all of the time. I also raw convert with Capture One so much better than any color from Lightroom.

So I think your Canon brand defending are a little off base.
 

bwud

EOS RP
Sep 3, 2014
305
10
OSOK said:
As I said before, these Sony people are like a new generation of photographers that significantly dispense with the use of artificial lighting even in extreme situations. They rely on sliders in post. They are very much more dependent on post processing and while I have nothing to back this up, it is my experience that on average, their images have more processing done to them. To their credit, in a world where most people are satisfied with cell phone picture quality - they can get away with it.

Too bad they don't realize there's no free lunch. There's no substitute in post for a large octabox powered with a strobe and the very high-end, beautiful portraiture look you get. No shadow lifting and tweaking in any program can recreate that.

Your unsubstantiated guesses and peculiar broad brushing are almost certainly accurate. That is why it’s weird that so many people, myself included, are ecstatic that they finally added something which should have been there two generations ago: the sync port.
 

Mikehit

EOS R6
Jul 28, 2015
3,329
526
ecqns said:
So I think your Canon brand defending are a little off base.

IMO the tedious thing is not those who really need that additional functionality that Sony bring to the game. There really are people (like yourself) who find it both helpful and useful for their photography. The PITAs are the Sony trolls who come on the site simply to say 'Canon is crap because Sony has better DR'. But seriously, how many people need to push 5 stops - and by 'need' I mean purposefully other than recovering a screw-up?
I think there is respect here for people like yourself who do find a use for such functionality but a lot are simply spec sheet warriors who seem so insecure in their own choice the have to do down someone else's gear.

Or are they infested with the social media mentality where people feel the need to be offended on someone else's behalf? Having said that, there have even been Canon users on this forum who have said 'I don't use video but Canon omitting 4k from the 5D4 was a huge mistake'. If you don't use video WTF does it matter?
 

ecqns

EOS M6 Mark II
Feb 4, 2015
98
0
Mikehit said:
[
IMO the tedious thing is not those who really need that additional functionality that Sony bring to the game. There really are people (like yourself) who find it both helpful and useful for their photography. The PITAs are the Sony trolls who come on the site simply to say 'Canon is crap because Sony has better DR'. But seriously, how many people need to push 5 stops - and by 'need' I mean purposefully other than recovering a screw-up?

I would say that Canon is (a bit) crap for DR compared to Sony. So much that I switched and haven't looked back. Introduced a few others too. The Sony sensor/Canon TSE combo is quite popular in the pro architecture segment. I could care less about spec trolls - but people saying a stop or two (or useable 4 or 5!) of DR doesn't matter in real life situations have no idea what they are talking about. Accidents do happen in real life photography and not having to bracket to get good shadows and highlights is a revelation. I think some Canon shooters should give Sony a try - its nice to have a camera company that actually kind of listens to users and updates products in a timely manner. I would say Sony is designed by marketers and engineers while Fuji (who I would shoot exclusively if I didn't do architecture) is designed by people with photography experience. But after only a few years Sony is getting better. I just wish that they could match whatever low ISO magic Nikon is doing with the same sensor, I'd love to have a real ISO 64.
 

Mikehit

EOS R6
Jul 28, 2015
3,329
526
The mere tone of your critique typifies the language that irritates so many on here. Sony suits you so fail to see the benefits of any part of what Canon does well. I totally get why you switched to Sony and why it suits you better than Canon but your whole post screams 'me! me! me!....only what I want is important'.

ecqns said:
I would say that Canon is (a bit) crap the use of the word 'crap' typifies the level of discussoin many knockers resort to. To me, using the word 'crap' suggests something far inferior so to use such an insulting word for 'a bit' inferior is bordering on puerile for DR compared to Sony. So much that I switched and haven't looked back. Introduced a few others too. The Sony sensor/Canon TSE combo is quite popular in the pro architecture segment. I could care less about spec trolls - but people saying a stop or two (or useable 4 or 5!) of DR doesn't matter in real life situations who has said that? I have read plenty of people saying some find it useful, and in fact most I have read said they would love the added DR of Sony added to the things Canon does better than Sony. have no idea what they are talking about. Accidents do happen in real life photography and not having to bracket to get good shadows and highlights is a revelation. I think some Canon shooters should give Sony a try - its nice to have a camera company that actually kind of listens to users and updates products in a timely manner Canon does listen to its customers - and what Canon hear is that DR is not the most important thing for most of its customers. This idea that feedback on DR is the only feedback worth listening is argualy the most frustrating elemint of these discussions. For professionals how about after sales service, durability, weatherproofing....things Sony traditoinally suck at. I would say Sony is designed by marketers and engineers while Fuji (who I would shoot exclusively if I didn't do architecture) is designed by people with photography experienceand what is your view of who Canon is designed by? I note you make no assumptions on that. But after only a few years Sony is getting better. trueI just wish that they could match whatever low ISO magic Nikon is doing with the same sensor yeah, how pathetic of Sony. Crap aren't they., I'd love to have a real ISO 64.

You are clearly happy with the Sony over Canon and there is no real reason for you to switch back - fair enough, but I wonder what your thoughts are now that Canon in the 5DIV and 1Dx2 have pretty much caught up on the DR front. And it will get closer: Sony will improve their (frankly quite appalling) interface and Canon will close in on the DR.
 

ecqns

EOS M6 Mark II
Feb 4, 2015
98
0
Mikehit said:
You are clearly happy with the Sony over Canon and there is no real reason for you to switch back - fair enough, but I wonder what your thoughts are now that Canon in the 5DIV and 1Dx2 have pretty much caught up on the DR front. And it will get closer: Sony will improve their (frankly quite appalling) interface and Canon will close in on the DR.

Isn't the whole point of everyone here is how they want camera companies to do what they want for their needs?

I can say from real world experience (as in I've actually used them, other people's cameras) that the 5DMk4 and 1Dx2 do not come close to the Sony DR - and for me that is the most important feature of a camera (and that it can use the TSE lenses). I wouldn't use a Sony if I was doing adventure or fashion photography but for how I work its great.
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,617
1,642
ecqns said:
I would say that Canon is (a bit) crap for DR compared to Sony. So much that I switched and haven't looked back. Introduced a few others too. The Sony sensor/Canon TSE combo is quite popular in the pro architecture segment. I could care less about spec trolls - but people saying a stop or two (or useable 4 or 5!) of DR doesn't matter in real life situations have no idea what they are talking about. Accidents do happen in real life photography and not having to bracket to get good shadows and highlights is a revelation. I think some Canon shooters should give Sony a try - its nice to have a camera company that actually kind of listens to users and updates products in a timely manner. I would say Sony is designed by marketers and engineers while Fuji (who I would shoot exclusively if I didn't do architecture) is designed by people with photography experience. But after only a few years Sony is getting better. I just wish that they could match whatever low ISO magic Nikon is doing with the same sensor, I'd love to have a real ISO 64.

You do realize that tripod-based T/S work conveniently drives around two crippling limitations of the A7 platform, right? Your hands probably don't hurt with a heavy lens attached if you don't need to use that woeful grip as often as a general handheld shooter would. And the AF can't let you down if you are using MF glass, amirite? This entire paragraph reminded me of the first folks who jumped to the A7 I platform and raved about how awesome astro was with it. ::)

Further, as far as listening to users goes, Sony is far less of a patient ear to the market and much more a rampaging bull that is sticking to its gut instincts. The #1 thing on the A7 III platform to-do list was to offer a grip (a) chunky enough to hold GM lenses all day and (b) not be so close to the mount as to create a finger trap. They did neither of those things.

I have a healthy respect for what Sony is doing in the new product development space, but they continue to lay an egg on some critical considerations.

- A
 

ecqns

EOS M6 Mark II
Feb 4, 2015
98
0
ahsanford said:
You do realize that tripod-based T/S work conveniently drives around two crippling limitations of the A7 platform, right? Your hands probably don't hurt with a heavy lens attached if you don't need to use that woeful grip as often as a general handheld shooter would.

As I said - if I didn't shoot architecture and pixel size and DR didn't matter to my needs, I would just shoot Fuji.
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,617
1,642
ecqns said:
ahsanford said:
You do realize that tripod-based T/S work conveniently drives around two crippling limitations of the A7 platform, right? Your hands probably don't hurt with a heavy lens attached if you don't need to use that woeful grip as often as a general handheld shooter would.
As I said - if I didn't shoot architecture and pixel size and DR didn't matter to my needs, I would just shoot Fuji.

Sure, but your message's "I think some Canon shooters should give Sony a try" is informed from a really narrow and specific user need. I happen to agree with you in the broad strokes for architecture/product/landscape/astro -- if you don't shoot in a hurry, don't track moving things, don't need AF and plan to leave the camera on a tripod, sure, it becomes much more about the sensor (and if you can adapt your glass) than anything else.

But for the -- what, 90% of the rest of us? -- AF, ergonomics, handling, interface, etc. matter a great deal!

I don't mean to be dismissive of your perspective, but Sony needs a lot more than a slick sensor to tick the 'I should try this' box for me. Holding the A7R2 with a decently chunky FF lens on it in B&H last year for all of five seconds told me that the 'II' platform was DOA for me. Just from that. So they may be listening to your needs, but surely not mine, and until they do they won't get a second look from me.

- A
 

bhf3737

---
CR Pro
Sep 9, 2015
642
1,376
Calgary, Canada
www.flickr.com
ecqns said:
I would say that Canon is (a bit) crap for DR compared to Sony. So much that I switched and haven't looked back. Introduced a few others too. The Sony sensor/Canon TSE combo is quite popular in the pro architecture segment. I could care less about spec trolls - but people saying a stop or two (or useable 4 or 5!) of DR doesn't matter in real life situations have no idea what they are talking about. Accidents do happen in real life photography and not having to bracket to get good shadows and highlights is a revelation. I think some Canon shooters should give Sony a try - its nice to have a camera company that actually kind of listens to users and updates products in a timely manner. I would say Sony is designed by marketers and engineers while Fuji (who I would shoot exclusively if I didn't do architecture) is designed by people with photography experience. But after only a few years Sony is getting better. I just wish that they could match whatever low ISO magic Nikon is doing with the same sensor, I'd love to have a real ISO 64.

With all respect for Sony and all other camera manufacturing companies, I should disagree that Sony is designed by marketers and engineers. The closer phrase describing it is that "It has rather poor marketing and engineering practices." At the core of engineering practice is being realistic with the spec; applying standard engineering practices and most importantly, developing reliable and dependable products. Their engineering practice lags by far the products they offer. Ergonomics and maintenance service are a few examples. So far, we have seen a series of interesting proof-of-concept cameras rather than solid products. That is good for some enthusiasts but I guess many are waiting to see whether Sony's engineering practice will catch up eventually. Some may be more eager than the others to see this happen.
 

snoke

EOS RP
Jul 20, 2017
306
47
neuroanatomist said:
snoke said:
Next DPR special topic? Bet: shutter sound.

Do you mean how silent it can be, or do you mean how aesthetically pleasing is the electronically generated artificial shutter noise? ;)

PdB. Perceptive dB.

Sound of shutter.

Measured distance 200mm at rock concert front row.
 

ecqns

EOS M6 Mark II
Feb 4, 2015
98
0
Jopa said:
Do you mind to post some of your architectural shots so we all can see what we are missing?

of course - send me a PM and I'll send you my website.
 

ecqns

EOS M6 Mark II
Feb 4, 2015
98
0
Jopa said:
Just post it here. I use to shoot Sony since 2012 (A99), my last Sony camera was the A7r2. Sold it because it was crap even compared to the 5DsR. So I'm quite positive that I'm not missing anything :) But a lot of folks on this forum that never shot Sony may be still in doubt, that's why it makes sense to make your link public. Thanks!

I can't see how its crap - my clients don't think so.
But I think I could shoot with just about anything and get results - I don't identify myself with a camera brand. I just get better results with a Sony than a Canon because I have a lot more DR lattitude.
5Dsr - Last thing I'd want is 50mpix of a Canon file.
I'm happy to share my work with anyone that asks but I'm not going to publicly post it.
 
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