Off Brand: Sony Announces the Full-frame a7R III

[PavelR]

You've tested 1dxii and found that it's not a significant upgrade over 1dsiii??? Is it a joke?

I've read reviews and spoke with two first person users of 1dx2 and none significant new feature was added. (I do not consider flicker detection as significant, because I do not have any problem using A9 on any natural / artificial light = I do not need it.)

Name some to "overpower" my list of advantages I can get by upgrading 1ds3 -> A9 over 1ds3 -> 1dx2.

 

[Viggo]

You've tested 1dxii and found that it's not a significant upgrade over 1dsiii??? Is it a joke?

I've read reviews and spoke with two first person users of 1dx2 and none significant new feature was added. (I do not consider flicker detection as significant, because I do not have any problem using A9 on any natural / artificial light = I do not need it.)

Name some to "overpower" my list of advantages I can get by upgrading 1ds3 -> A9 over 1ds3 -> 1dx2.

Wait, what?

The 1dx2 is significant leap from the 1dx, maybe in studio the difference is less, but take it outside and it blows the socks off the 1ds3.

 

[PavelR]

You've tested 1dxii and found that it's not a significant upgrade over 1dsiii??? Is it a joke?

I've read reviews and spoke with two first person users of 1dx2 and none significant new feature was added. (I do not consider flicker detection as significant, because I do not have any problem using A9 on any natural / artificial light = I do not need it.)

Name some to "overpower" my list of advantages I can get by upgrading 1ds3 -> A9 over 1ds3 -> 1dx2.

Wait, what?

The 1dx2 is significant leap from the 1dx, maybe in studio the difference is less, but take it outside and it blows the socks off the 1ds3.

Name features, don't say only fanboy statements. (I have no studio, thus I use it outside.)

 

[Perio]

You've tested 1dxii and found that it's not a significant upgrade over 1dsiii??? Is it a joke?

I've read reviews and spoke with two first person users of 1dx2 and none significant new feature was added. (I do not consider flicker detection as significant, because I do not have any problem using A9 on any natural / artificial light = I do not need it.)

Name some to "overpower" my list of advantages I can get by upgrading 1ds3 -> A9 over 1ds3 -> 1dx2.

Wait, what?

The 1dx2 is significant leap from the 1dx, maybe in studio the difference is less, but take it outside and it blows the socks off the 1ds3.

Name features, don't say only fanboy statements. (I have no studio, thus I use it outside.)

ISO, AF speed/accuracy/sensitivity, FPS, 4k video, DR, improved battery, great rear screen, improved shutter just to name a few.

 

[PavelR]

You've tested 1dxii and found that it's not a significant upgrade over 1dsiii??? Is it a joke?

I've read reviews and spoke with two first person users of 1dx2 and none significant new feature was added. (I do not consider flicker detection as significant, because I do not have any problem using A9 on any natural / artificial light = I do not need it.)

Name some to "overpower" my list of advantages I can get by upgrading 1ds3 -> A9 over 1ds3 -> 1dx2.

Wait, what?

The 1dx2 is significant leap from the 1dx, maybe in studio the difference is less, but take it outside and it blows the socks off the 1ds3.

Name features, don't say only fanboy statements. (I have no studio, thus I use it outside.)

ISO, AF speed/accuracy/sensitivity, FPS, 4k video, DR, improved battery, great rear screen, improved shutter just to name a few.

Nothing applicable for the original request: Name some to "overpower" my list [on the bottom of the page 12] of advantages I can get by upgrading 1ds3 -> A9 over 1ds3 -> 1dx2. (As a new feature can be considered only 4K, because all others are only enhancements.)

 

[Loswr]

Nothing applicable for the original request: Name some to "overpower" my list [on the bottom of the page 12] of advantages I can get by upgrading 1ds3 -> A9 over 1ds3 -> 1dx2. (As a new feature can be considered only 4K, because all others are only enhancements.)

I find nothing 'overpowering' — or even moderately compelling — on your list of a9 features. However, the loss of handling comfort, particularly with the f/2.8 zooms that are my most commonly used lenses, would be a total deal breaker.

 

[PavelR]

Nothing applicable for the original request: Name some to "overpower" my list [on the bottom of the page 12] of advantages I can get by upgrading 1ds3 -> A9 over 1ds3 -> 1dx2. (As a new feature can be considered only 4K, because all others are only enhancements.)

I find nothing 'overpowering' — or even moderately compelling — on your list of a9 features. However, the loss of handling comfort, particularly with the f/2.8 zooms that are my most commonly used lenses, would be a total deal breaker.

It is ok that you prefer other features than me. I'm using regularly 70-200/2.8, sometimes 120-300 and I do not have any problem using it on any body... I've already downgraded handling comfort in stage d2x -> 1d4 and it is lesser difference on 1ds3 -> A9. BTW: I've found today that I can use A9 & 70-200 with gloves.

 

[privatebydesign]

As a person who went from 1DS MkIII's to 1DX MkII's I can see Pavel's point to some extent, however people prioritize the features they need or don't need and it often doesn't make sense to others.

When I upgraded, and to suggest the 1DS MkIII to 1DX MkII isn't a massive upgrade is being churlish, the A9 wasn't an option, but there is no doubt it offers some interesting differences for those that find some particular feature valuable, I'd really like the fully silent shutter, the much wider AF spread etc. But I am not a whistles and bells person and I value reliability and system compatibility more than most people might so, for me, the list of A9 features is not compelling enough to even take a serious look at the camera.

Tools of this calibre are all fully competent, which makes our ability to get 99.9999% of shots we envision more about our competence than the cameras. Very, very rarely is a shot possible with one model and not another, how we interact with the tools is far more important and in that regard we are all different.

I grew up out of a slide shooting background and to me the necessity for in viewfinder review is zero, I could easily live without rear screen review. My need for exposure simulation is also zero. I find 10x Live View much more reliable and accurate than focus peaking and the Canon implementation of Live View is superb. I have no need for zebras as I use 'blinkies' for a test shot and dial in my exposure from that, I actually prefer less information in the viewfinder rather than more so turn a lot of the viewfinder information off.

Having said all that, high end cameras are very mature products, they all take excellent images, how we prioritize the whistles and bells really isn't worth getting bent out of shape about.

 

[snoke]

How does turning linear data into a curve help? There is no more space so something somewhere is crushed. Sure there are theoretical oversampling and averaging computations that haven’t been shown to be practical in this application that can give you more steps within a file. But so far we have been given linear data as linear data, so how are Sony getting, supposedly, well over 14 stops of DR into a 14 bit file? Red moved to 16 bit files to achieve the feat.

Crush highlight, not matter. Human eye less sensitive to highlight change. More sensitive low change.

Remember: 14bit file, 0-16383, 50% values 8192-16383 for top stop. Who care about 8000 value for light grey to white?

 

[Jopa]

Interesting conversation, Pavel. I'm glad you found your dream camera after all

Since my "Sony path" ends with the A7r2, I can't really tell anything good or bad about the A9 first hand, same as you can also just rely on someone else opinion about the 1DX2. I think those 2 folks you spoke with didn't find significant improvements compared to the 1DX, but not 1DS3.

...which is also only partially true. The 1DX2 shoots impressive 4k DCI 60p video with exceptionally smooth and reliable auto focus (DPAF). I'm not a video guy, but when I saw it first time I was blown away, and now I don't have a choice - started shooting videos Slightly expanded PDAF area, better DR, anti-flicker, touch screen, a couple of extra fps and even better AF due to AI Servo III+. The 1DX is an improvement compared to the 1DS3.

I was using Sony's Eye-AF since the A7r when it was working only in AF-S and no one seem to care about it. The A7r2 made it available in the AF-C mode and people started noticing it. It's probably evolved even more in the A9. You'll be surprised but Canon's face detection algorithm is not an iota of difference in accuracy. It just doesn't show the gimmicky square on the eye.

At the end of the day both are capable cameras using different technologies and different approaches. I really don't see any sense to switch systems, simply because I won't get any benefits for my photography. Buying the A9 just for giggles as a "back" for the Canon lenses is a downgrade IMO: fps and AF speed drop is imminent.

 

[Loswr]

It is ok that you prefer other features than me.

Yet, more than once, you asked others to list differences from 1DsIII to 1D X II that you would find overpowering. Interesting.

I'm with PBD on this – bells and whistles don't impress me. I can achieve the exposure I want based on the VF meter and my experience, and having more stuff cluttering up the VF just gets in the way of composition. Mainly, I want a reliable, robust system that just works. Canon offers that, Sony isn't there yet.

 

[Jopa]

It is ok that you prefer other features than me.

Yet, more than once, you asked others to list differences from 1DsIII to 1D X II that you would find overpowering. Interesting.

I'm with PBD on this – bells and whistles don't impress me. I can achieve the exposure I want based on the VF meter and my experience, and having more stuff cluttering up the VF just gets in the way of composition. Mainly, I want a reliable, robust system that just works. Canon offers that, Sony isn't there yet.

I simply rely on the exposure meter too. Maybe I'm just dumb, but a histogram isn't telling me more than a simple meter. I just know if I shoot a landscape photo with a bunch of sky, I just want it to be between -1 and -2 EV

 

[Orangutan]

P.S. How are you supposing they are fitting 15 stops of DR into a 14 bit, at most, file?

Log?

Good bet. Need non-linear raw data.

How does turning linear data into a curve help?

Linear scaling would work, you just wouldn't have the bit boundaries line-up with the "stops" of DR.

But so far we have been given linear data as linear data, so how are Sony getting, supposedly, well over 14 stops of DR into a 14 bit file?

Perhaps some EE with experience can chime in, but I don't understand how the number of quantization levels matters for how the contained information is interpreted. It seems common for people to assume that 1-bit corresponding to 1 "stop' of DR is natural, but I don't see it that way at all.

A good way to see this is to compare the centigrade and Fahrenheit temperature scales: from the freezing point to the boiling point of water is 100 quantization levels in centigrade, but it's 180 quantization levels in Fahrenheit. We could invent a new temperature scale, call it the sowknee, that has 64 quantization levels between freezing and boiling. Now you need 8 bits to express that range in Fahrenheit, 7 bits for centigrade, and 6 for the sowknee scale. All represent the same "dynamic range," but express different gap sizes between integral temperature values, with Fahrenheit having the finest gradation, and sowknee the least.

In direct answer to the question, they're doing it by increasing the risk of banding, especially in the darker areas. (unless they have some magical mathematical compression algorithm)

 

[Dylan777]

“Mirrorless” is all “Smoke and Mirrors”
(Sorry, I couldn’t help myself)

At this rate it’s going to take another 5-10 years to actually get something comparable with high end SLR performance.

With today high end mirrorless, I found your comment quite lack of understanding. They both have their strength and weakness.

 

[Orangutan]

I can achieve the exposure I want based on the VF meter and my experience, and having more stuff cluttering up the VF just gets in the way of composition

Do you play video games? Do you quickly become accustomed to the displays of each new game? Does that information impede your ability to see, navigate and act within the game? If your 1DX had available histogram you would quickly become accustomed to it and use it. Of course, you'd want to be able to assign a button to turn it on/off.

When I'm shooting events or action I don't have time for histograms, and often not even the meter. When I'm shooting on tripod, I definitely use the histogram.

 

[Dylan777]

It is ok that you prefer other features than me.

Yet, more than once, you asked others to list differences from 1DsIII to 1D X II that you would find overpowering. Interesting.

I'm with PBD on this – bells and whistles don't impress me. I can achieve the exposure I want based on the VF meter and my experience, and having more stuff cluttering up the VF just gets in the way of composition. Mainly, I want a reliable, robust system that just works. Canon offers that, Sony isn't there yet.

I don't agree with Neuro this time. I found EVF very helpful for me to get better exposure, especially shooting in low light. Those bells and whistles are not just bells and whistles according to Canon users. Exp. Eye-AF is one of great features in that bells and whistles list.

"cluttering up the VF", in Sony A7 to A9 you can select what you want to display in EVF and LCD. This is what I have on my EVF/LCD on my A9.

 

[Jopa]

Do you play video games?

You'll be probably surprised but a bunch of people do not play video games.

 

[PavelR]

It is ok that you prefer other features than me.

Yet, more than once, you asked others to list differences from 1DsIII to 1D X II that you would find overpowering. Interesting.

I'm with PBD on this – bells and whistles don't impress me. I can achieve the exposure I want based on the VF meter and my experience, and having more stuff cluttering up the VF just gets in the way of composition. Mainly, I want a reliable, robust system that just works. Canon offers that, Sony isn't there yet.

privatebydesign summed it up nicely, but, Neuro, I have to say:
* you as some others still do not answer original question I posted here two times, so I will not repeat it nor wait for the answer...
* AF coverage & Eye AF is only way to compose in camera and focus on the correct eye shooting moving subjects (I needed to do lots of cropping on post with any used DSLR.)
* VF zebra is only way to not need to guess the correct exposure in frequent light changing situations
* true silent shutter is the only way to go with low volume music concerts and theater performances. Now I can also shoot just beside videographer using top of camera microphone.

BTW: My dream camera would be:
* mirrorless
* global e shutter with unlimited sync speed
* Nikon full size like D5 + Nikon flash system
* Sony sensor 36x36mm with optional aspect ratio crop
* Canon mount
And such camera will never exist so I as everybody else need to choose between current offers of current manufacturers and find best feasible features / price ratio.

 

[Jopa]

Eye-AF is one of great features in that bells and whistles list.

The Eye-AF is an shiny example of bells and whistles! Canon's face detection is as accurate with the only thing you can't switch the eyes - it's going to be the closest detected eye ball. But how many times in your life you needed to switch to the far eye?

 

[Orangutan]

Do you play video games?

You'll be probably surprised but a bunch of people do not play video games.

Not at all: I don't. I've just found it an effective illustration.