Review: Sigma 50mm f/1.4 DG HSM Art Lens

Rudeofus said:
I really wonder what is so damn hard about reverse engineering that Canon lens protocol. We are not talking about some one man show running a startup on a shoe string budget and Ramen noodles, AFAIK Sigma is a sizable company that can design outstanding lenses. It's not like they'd have to crack AES encryption to make this work. They build up all this reputation for the new 50A, only to see it shredded by their poor electronics/firmware. 99-yard football seems to be their favorite sport ...

To those who wondered why AI works for the 50A and single shot AF doesn't (reliably): single shot AF is usually an one effort procedure: measure point spread, calculate AF motor movement, perform motor movement, done. If the measurement is off, or the motor does not move as intended, your AF will be off. With AI the measure/calculate/move procedure is performed continuously, and therefore will only fail in focus shift situations (see 50L).

I have been thinking about this also and I'm beginning to suspect that Canon has software in the body to prevent the third party lenses from focusing consistently. Basically if the camera does not recognize the lens as Canon it would insert random miss focusing.

It would be nice to see how the AF performs on some old cameras, especially old Rebels since I would suspect that there would not be any thing in the firmware. Better yet how it performs on a film camera.

Or alternately if the lens is miss identified by the camera as some other Canon lens, it is apply a correction which is appropriate for the Canon lens but not good for the Sigma.
 
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candyman said:
How many (p)reviews of the Sigma 50mm f/1.4 ART actually report problems with the AF? I read a few but only found this report at TDP. Is it possible that Bryan had bad luck with his copy? Although it was provided by Sigma?

EDIT: Lenstip reports an AF problem specific with the Canon 1Ds MKIII. Maybe they should have tried another FF to see if it is that camera or the lens....

I used to own the 'old' Sigma 50mm f/1.4. I never had AF problems with that one. I got rid of it because I did not like to performance on the FF but loved it on my 7D.
It is possible that production copies will perform outstanding where always you have some copies that are not okay.

Lenstip claims the issues were with the 1Ds3, but non with the 5D3. Bryan reports issues on a 5D3.

Good news is that it's probably a software quirk. I would wait a little before buying the lens, but I'm confident Sigma will release a firmware update soon.

We should also wait to see how widespread is the problem.

It's also interesting to notice that both tested lenses (lenstip and TDP) came from Sigma. Maybe they weren't really retail-ready models and had a beta firmware?
 
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candyman

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Albi86 said:
candyman said:
How many (p)reviews of the Sigma 50mm f/1.4 ART actually report problems with the AF? I read a few but only found this report at TDP. Is it possible that Bryan had bad luck with his copy? Although it was provided by Sigma?

EDIT: Lenstip reports an AF problem specific with the Canon 1Ds MKIII. Maybe they should have tried another FF to see if it is that camera or the lens....

I used to own the 'old' Sigma 50mm f/1.4. I never had AF problems with that one. I got rid of it because I did not like to performance on the FF but loved it on my 7D.
It is possible that production copies will perform outstanding where always you have some copies that are not okay.

Lenstip claims the issues were with the 1Ds3, but non with the 5D3. Bryan reports issues on a 5D3.

Good news is that it's probably a software quirk. I would wait a little before buying the lens, but I'm confident Sigma will release a firmware update soon.

We should also wait to see how widespread is the problem.

It's also interesting to notice that both tested lenses (lenstip and TDP) came from Sigma. Maybe they weren't really retail-ready models and had a beta firmware?


Thanks for straighten out my sloppy reading. You're right.
In any case you are right about waiting...waiting for the first production copies to see the result of AF
 
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kphoto99 said:
I'm beginning to suspect that Canon has software in the body to prevent the third party lenses from focusing consistently. Basically if the camera does not recognize the lens as Canon it would insert random miss focusing.

If that came out to be true, a lot of people will lose what respect they had for Canon and the other manufacturers would jump on this.

Gone are the days when photographers expect to only use one manufacturer's lenses.

At my local photo club, I see more and more second party lenses. I don't have any brand loyalty when it comes to lenses. I want to be able to choose lenses from other manufacturers if I feel it is a better lens for my purpose.

It is one thing for Canon to not cooperate with second party lens manufacturers. That's just business. But to deliberately put in coding to hinder second party lenses is, in my opinon, not acceptable. That's just my opinion though.

I want to buy Canon lenses because I feel they are the best lens for my purpose.. not because I have to because of coding.
 
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candyman

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AcutancePhotography said:
.............
It is one thing for Canon to not cooperate with second party lens manufacturers. That's just business. But to deliberately put in coding to hinder second party lenses is, in my opinon, not acceptable. That's just my opinion though............


Reminds me of software companies. I know that some of them got to deal with lawsuits that they lost. They had to open the software and had to pay huge sum of penalty.
But the two might not be the same...
It may be about violating patents and we know what is going on between Apple, Samsung, HTC, Nokia etc.
 
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neuroanatomist

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dilbert said:
YuengLinger said:
...
All that said, I'm surprised nobody has been discussing how odd it seems that AI Servo was apparently ok, but One Shot on a tripod wasn't...Any conjecture?
...

With a static subject and on a tripod, the reviewer should have been using "Live View" (contrast based focus) and focused through that and should not have used the normal TTL method of focusing. This would then allow the review to check that the camera was no longer vibrating (at 10x view) when they took the photo: depending on the residual motion, 2 seconds is not always enough to allow the camera to become still.

This makes me think that there are some questions to be asked about the procedures used by the reviewer as they have obviously been found wanting.

Live View focusing uses different communication protocols with the lens. Using that method would not have tested the lens' performance with PDAF, which was the whole point of the test. A 2 s delay should be quite sufficient at a 50mm FL, given the quality of support gear that Bryan has (I have ample shots – thousands – taken for AFMA to support that assertion).

It's the peanut gallery commentator who has been found wanting, as is frequently the case on this forum.
 
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Viggo said:
It's not about the lack of skills, it's matter of not violating patents Canon own.

Canon made fast EF compatible glass over 17 years ago, all relevant patents must have expired by now, if they ever existed. A few years ago there was a long thread in some german photo forum about the Canon EF lens protocol and the way Sigma reverse engineered it. The conclusion was that Sigma did not put much effort into it and as a result had AF problems that seemed to have pestered them forever. This may have been ok when they made mostly cheaper substitutes for Canon/Nikon accessories, but with their new ambition towards optical excellence they clearly have some homework to do.

kphoto99 said:
I have been thinking about this also and I'm beginning to suspect that Canon has software in the body to prevent the third party lenses from focusing consistently. Basically if the camera does not recognize the lens as Canon it would insert random miss focusing.

Or alternately if the lens is miss identified by the camera as some other Canon lens, it is apply a correction which is appropriate for the Canon lens but not good for the Sigma.

If a Canon camera indeed introduced targeted random focus shifts for third party glass, then it would be fraudulent for third party manufacturers to sell lenses as fully functional. Somehow I doubt this, and the fact that so many people seem to be happy with third party accessories seems to confirm my doubt. But here's the thing: even if they perfectly reproduced Canon's protocol, if their HSM drive loses steps due to sticky surfaces or whatnot, they would have inconsistent focusing. Remember that regular AF is a single effort process. This would more likely explain why poor AF performance seems to be so random.

If the camera sends some lens specific corrections, these are either fixed parameters, or based on parameters sent by the lens to the camera. In both cases the lens should have full control how it responds to data sent by the camera.


AcutancePhotography said:
If that came out to be true, a lot of people will lose what respect they had for Canon and the other manufacturers would jump on this.

The last major incident happened with the introduction of the 10D, when a range of Sigma lenses stopped working. It has been proven conclusively, that Canon introduced a pointless protocol change, just to become incompatible with Sigma lenses ("the work ain't done until Sigma won't run"). People still blame this on Sigma and only use it as a justification to stick to Canon accessories, even if it limits their options and, on average, is more expensive. Rarely do you see "bad Canon, stop messing pointlessly with your protocol!" postings.
 
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neuroanatomist

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kphoto99 said:
Or alternately if the lens is miss identified by the camera as some other Canon lens...

In fact, that is exactly what happens…by design. Third-party manufacturers pick a Canon LensID code to incorporate into their lens firmware, as part of the reverse engineering to work with the Canon AF systems.

This has caused problems for third-party lenses in the past. For example, Canon had an issue (which as far as I know, they have never corrected) that resulted in the off center cross-type AF points of the 40D/50D/60D/7D (and quite possibly the newer bodies using the same AF modules, T4i/T5i/70D) behaving as single-orientation lines instead of crosses with certain lenses. The affected Canon lenses are quite old, like the 35-80 and 80-200 variable aperture zooms, so very, very few users would be affected. Users of Canon lenses, that is... Popular Tamron lenses like the 17-50/2.8 VC and 70-200/2.8 'borrowed' the codes from those old Canon lenses, so when you use those lenses on one of the affected bodies, you have only one cross-type point instead of 9 or 19.

The nice thing about the new Sigma lenses is that the firmware can be updated via the dock.
 
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distant.star said:
.
"For What It's Worth"

There's something happening here
What it is ain't exactly clear


One person testing one lens = one opinion.

Given my excellent year-long and extensive experience with the Sigma 35mm A, I want to hear a lot more opinions. I'm hoping Roger at LR will weigh in on this after testing more than one lens.
So far, PopPhoto has said nothing bad about AF, ThePhoblographer has said that it struggles a bit in low light, and FStoppers test in bright daylight listed "Autofocus very fast and accurate" as a Pro for the lens. I think it's too soon to tell.
 
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Quasimodo

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I think this AF scare is a bit premature. Bryan tested one lens, as has oft been the claim against Klaus tests in photozone.de... Let*s wait until Lens Rentals do their testing on multiple copies.

Btw, FWIW I have never had any AF issues on the 35 A, and besides a small flare issue I absolutely love that lens.

Edit:

Distant.star I did not see your post before I posted mine, but as you see I agree.

Btw: I love that song
 
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brad-man

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Quasimodo said:
I think this AF scare is a bit premature. Bryan tested one lens, as has oft been the claim against Klaus tests in photozone.de... Let*s wait until Lens Rentals do their testing on multiple copies.

Btw, FWIW I have never had any AF issues on the 35 A, and besides a small flare issue I absolutely love that lens.

Edit:

Distant.star I did not see your post before I posted mine, but as you see I agree.

Btw: I love that song

+1

There's a man with a lens over there
Telling me, I got to beware

Sigma fans speaking their mind
Getting so much resistance from behind...
 
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wow i cant believe the near hysteria this caused

I still have mine on preorder for the first on to hit the sigma store in shanghai

and FWIW

My existing sigma 50 which was optically good but had lousy AF on my camera
has been taken by my wife and seems to be performing excellently on her camera
both are 5Dmk3. The canon 50 1.4 is lousy on both cameras but works well enough on the 5Dmk2 bodies
 
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neuroanatomist

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wickidwombat said:
wow i cant believe the near hysteria this caused

Yeah, well we're all either fanbois with no objectivity or Canon-bashers with no objectivity, right? ::)

Two reviews have noted AF issues with the lens, other reviews have not (though many reviews don't actually test AF performance). Maybe Roger Cicala will get a large batch and provide some solid evidence one way or the other.
 
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neuroanatomist said:
wickidwombat said:
wow i cant believe the near hysteria this caused

Yeah, well we're all either fanbois with no objectivity or Canon-bashers with no objectivity, right? ::)

Two reviews have noted AF issues with the lens, other reviews have not (though many reviews don't actually test AF performance). Maybe Roger Cicala will get a large batch and provide some solid evidence one way or the other.

heres hoping roger can get a batch and test. his batch testing seems to provide the most objective and comprehensive analysis of lenses available. also if there are issues I hope they can be sorted with the sigma dock and the issues aren't random and all over the place like the old 50 was (well for me anyway) its odd that my wifes 5Dmk3 seems to have no problem with this lens and is providing amazing images wide open with remarkable AF consistency where as for me it was all over the place...
 
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Quasimodo

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brad-man said:
Quasimodo said:
I think this AF scare is a bit premature. Bryan tested one lens, as has oft been the claim against Klaus tests in photozone.de... Let*s wait until Lens Rentals do their testing on multiple copies.

Btw, FWIW I have never had any AF issues on the 35 A, and besides a small flare issue I absolutely love that lens.

Edit:

Distant.star I did not see your post before I posted mine, but as you see I agree.

Btw: I love that song

+1

There's a man with a lens over there
Telling me, I got to beware

Sigma fans speaking their mind
Getting so much resistance from behind...


LOL
 
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GMCPhotographics

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wickidwombat said:
neuroanatomist said:
wickidwombat said:
wow i cant believe the near hysteria this caused

Yeah, well we're all either fanbois with no objectivity or Canon-bashers with no objectivity, right? ::)

Two reviews have noted AF issues with the lens, other reviews have not (though many reviews don't actually test AF performance). Maybe Roger Cicala will get a large batch and provide some solid evidence one way or the other.

heres hoping roger can get a batch and test. his batch testing seems to provide the most objective and comprehensive analysis of lenses available. also if there are issues I hope they can be sorted with the sigma dock and the issues aren't random and all over the place like the old 50 was (well for me anyway) its odd that my wifes 5Dmk3 seems to have no problem with this lens and is providing amazing images wide open with remarkable AF consistency where as for me it was all over the place...

I seem to be the only person who objects to Sigma passing their poor quality control onto their user base by flogging a device to do what should have been done in the factory. Come on guys....wake up. Sure it might be cool to play with those features....but it should be right out of the factory. As it stands, I would not trust a mail order Sigma lens on first use. It's likely to a fair amount of pre-use adjustment.
 
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I checked the forum at TDP and found this post from the reviewer, Bryan:

Thanks for the great discussion, everyone!

My review copy of the 50 Art was indeed manufacturer-provided (the only way to get one right now) and that of course leaves open the question of cherry picking. I will be very surprised if the copy I evaluated is noticeably better than the retail-purchased copies coming soon. If it is, Sigma's practice of selecting ultra-high performing models for evaluation purposes will quickly be called out. I'll try to get a retail copy of this lens in for testing. That way, we will all know. Sean will also be using this lens in more depth soon. We will advise on any inconsistencies we discover.

As for a 40% miss rate being high, I completely agree. My experience was not always that case. For example, I was probably getting a hit rate in high 80% range shooting runners at the track meet and probably in the mid-90% range during the long portrait session. Results with other subjects were mixed. Sometimes great. Sometimes not.

Let me know if you have any more questions!
 
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infared

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I have to say...I think that half of the people here complaining about the focusing of the 35mm f1.4 Art, must work for Canon.... Mine focuses spot on ...all the time and I just LOVE the lens. it's one of those lenses that just stuns you every time you open the files. In actual shooting situations my lens is very consistent, and one of my favorites to reach for.
 
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YuengLinger

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infared said:
I have to say...I think that half of the people here complaining about the focusing of the 35mm f1.4 Art. Mine focuses spot on ...all the time and I just LOVE the lens. it's one of those lenses that just stuns you every time you open the files. In actual shooting situation my lens is very consistent.

I'm in the half not complaining about my 35mm Art, but taking the claims in the review very seriously. One juror, though, doesn't decide a case. But I'm also back to waiting for the next round of rebates for the ef 50mm 1.2.

I'm very happy with my Sigma 35mm Art, and with my Sigma 15mm fisheye. What does that have to do with the performance of a soon-to-be-released 50mm?
 
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