Rumored RF mount Cinema camera specifications [CR2]

cornieleous

5D4 + R5
Jul 13, 2020
208
735
All I can say is wow! I just wrote my contact at my local shop to let them know that I am interested in purchasing. For video work this will be an amazing camera. As others have noted this is the first Cine camera that is affordable by my standards. I also really like the fact that is is rumored to use the same batteries as the R5. It will be great to have two separate systems using the same batteries! I just hope that it offers internal RAW recording like the C200.
As silly as a thing like batteries are, that matters to me too! I cannot stand dragging around many batteries and chargers. I'm selling my Sony NXCAM not because it is bad, but the R5 4K30 is better and stabilized, and I cannot stand those batteries and charger. I'd love a dedicate pro video camera within the same system.

Curious how well Super 35mm can do for low light in the latest sensor generation.
 

padam

EOS R
Aug 26, 2015
1,065
706
This move makes no sense to me. As I've stated before, the current line of RF lenses are not particularly good video lenses so there's no advantage to introducing a RF mount video camera unless it offers features not found on the EF mount cameras.

Super 35 sensor -- bad idea. the advantage of RF is superior full frame capabilities.
4K -- with the R5 shooting 8K and the BlackMagic shooting 6K this resolution is not compelling.

Of course, I don't have the benefit of knowing Canon's long term strategy.
Not sure why you claim that, there are a decent number of good RF lenses for video, like the trinity of f/2.8 IS lenses which work perfectly for video with reduced focus breathing and silent focusing. And they are still coming in.

But if one prefers to shoot EF lenses, he can also buy the Canon branded Speed Booster (probably a 0.71x focal reducer) to get back up to full-frame equivalent field of view and effectively gain an extra stop of light back as well. So the benefit of the RF-mount is easily utilised.

It does most of what a modern equivalent of the C200 would do (way superior 4k120p slow motion, that was one weak point of the C200), but the starting price is way lower (that one was 7499, this one will be 4499!), it brings in some features from the C300 Mark III (not the DGO sensor obviously) for less than half the price. It could be very attractive for a lot of people looking for a small cinema camera.

It looks to be a perfectly fine camera to start their RF Cinema campaign, which they can build upon.

Of course if you want FF and 6K video, you are welcome to buy the C500 Mark II for almost four times more, and I am sure there will be an RF-mount equivalent somewhere around that price range :)
 
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Deleted member 384473

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For filmmakers the more resolution the better. We've always advocated over sampling so we can more accurately color grade and manipulate footage for SFX. One cannot just think about current delivery methods (that max out at 4K) but also where we might be in 10, 20 50, or 100 years. (HBOMax has Eisenstein's 1925 film "Battleship Potemkin" in its library).
I understand that it would be nice to future proof our content, however I think too much importance is placed on resolution over other important specs, like DR. I’d much rather a solid 4K with 13+ stops of usable DR than 8K with sub 11ish stops. Now if you’re talking cinema cameras, yea a Red solves that. Though I think lots of filmmakers would choose an Arri, who just moved to 4K two years ago. I guess it really depends on the filmmaker. Cheers!
 

Colorado

EOS M6 Mark II
Dec 16, 2013
53
152
This move makes no sense to me. As I've stated before, the current line of RF lenses are not particularly good video lenses so there's no advantage to introducing a RF mount video camera unless it offers features not found on the EF mount cameras.

<snip>

Of course, I don't have the benefit of knowing Canon's long term strategy.
I think the long term strategy is that we have seen the last EF lens. As EF lenses are phased out (meaning some will be produced for a long time, but not forever) then RF lenses will be the only available option for both stills and video cameras (excluding M cameras ofc).
 

cornieleous

5D4 + R5
Jul 13, 2020
208
735
For filmmakers the more resolution the better. We've always advocated over sampling so we can more accurately color grade and manipulate footage for SFX. One cannot just think about current delivery methods (that max out at 4K) but also where we might be in 10, 20 50, or 100 years. (HBOMax has Eisenstein's 1925 film "Battleship Potemkin" in its library).
Doesn't it make more sense to think about resolution in terms of the life of the camera and your computer hardware?

If I bought a cinema camera, I'd expect it to be getting quality footage for about 4-5 years and then updgrading. 4K120 if the quality is great seems to fit the need, or be slightly behind. 6K and 8K are
Hi everyone! New here, 0 Canon gear at the moment. Felt the need to post because me and many of my colleagues are seemingly underrepresented here.

Am waiting for almost 2 years already for Canon to make the RF switch possible! But I get the feeling :this camera is not it" again ...

What I need is (and these are all possible things):
- full frame (for lens resolution, wide angle, versatility and low light)
- sensor stabilization (to remove micro-jitter from holding a lightweight camera)
- good quality 4K video with preferably high frame rates
- ability to take photos (not to swap lenses to a different body and re-compose)

This upcoming camera does only one of those things. R5 would be perfect if it had predictable overheating and recovery while filming in regular modes. I can live with line-skipped 4K for most of the time having the 20-30 minutes of 120fps for b-roll and oversampled 4K for detailed scenes. But as is – you can end up having 0 minutes of those modes and camera won't recover unless it's turned off for over an hour. The other issue is no timeline for C-log 3, with the regular C-log limiting the dynamic range.

It's easy to tell me to go buy some other brand (because other brands do all those things), but the only way for Canon to get my 5000-10000€ for cameras and 13000-15000€ for lenses in the next 2 years is to make an R5 that doesn't overheat or for this cinema camera to be full frame with stabilization, which it won't be if it has C200 sensor.

I sincerely congratulate everyone who got the R5 and am happy that it fulfills your requirements, I just wish there were more people Canon RF cameras were satisfying for.
You're looking for a hybrid that other brands do not have yet and Canon has not perfected. No one has FF hybrid that doesn't overheat with sensor stabilization and good photos. Of course you didn't really say good photos, and the A7s3 can do 12MP if that is enough for you. Its a barely hybrid to me- they didn't even really try for photos as far as serious photographers are concerned.

The closest Canon cameras to your list are probably the 1DX3 and R5. Maybe the R5 gets repackaged for less heat but you understand video cameras are low bit rate and low MP FF on video precisely because it is faster to readout and less heat. Also easier to stabilize.

I think you are just going to have to wait for the perfect hybrid in another version or as you say go for a different brand. The R5 is about as close as anyone has come to trying to be truly good at both video and photo, but it really is a stills and light duty camera in a too small body for its capability, hence the heating issues.

Also, I am guessing if you want to get your message to Canon, emailing them directly will be more effective getting your wants heard than forum posts on this rumors site. The RF cameras are satisfying to quite a lot of us, but its good to make your requests in the right places if you are interested in the brand and RF system.
 
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RunAndGun

EOS RP
CR Pro
Dec 16, 2011
414
81
First Overheat Alert! Paging EosHD!

RED Komodo is shipping with EF-RF mount right?
Komodo’s are native RF. The pre-release custom color Komodo’s and the pre-release Storm Trooper Komodo’s have a Canon EF/RF adapter included, but the regular production run cameras will not have the adapter included.
 

Pape

EOS RP
Dec 31, 2018
595
362
Sounds like another aproximately 4k camera like sony A7siii :p ,no idea if its good idea when peoples seen R5 high quality 4k
Maybe it using small megapixel sensor so ibis can totally replace tripod and wireless transmitter can truelly send all data away.
Can imagine tokio olympics and tv photographers chasing athlets around riding with tiny robot scooters.
midget video peoples with one wheeled scooters!
 
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RunAndGun

EOS RP
CR Pro
Dec 16, 2011
414
81
Full size HDMI make me happy.

Keeping expectations leveled ;)
HDMI has no place on a professional video/cine camera. It’s one of the things I hate most about the original C300. They wasted space putting an HDMI on the camera instead of a much more useful second BNC/SDI. Rigging and wiring, especially in multi camera scenarios, was always a PITA, because you had to loop through VF’s and monitors so many times, because there was only the lone SDI. By the time the signal made it back to the big monitor, sometimes there was a second delay.
 
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preppyak

EOS R
Oct 18, 2011
1,020
74
This move makes no sense to me. As I've stated before, the current line of RF lenses are not particularly good video lenses so there's no advantage to introducing a RF mount video camera unless it offers features not found on the EF mount cameras.
See, it makes perfect sense to me, and actually explains some of the R5/R6 choices.

Aside from the obvious future proofing as they phase out EF, they can hook a lot of people at a cheaper price point than the C-line had been doing. APS-C v Full-frame explains a good chunk of the price difference, both between sensor and processing. And because RF can adapt every EF lens (and potentially speedboost them), there's few limits.

But importantly it gives people a lot of the draws that Blackmagic/Sony/etc have, and when those people would have left before because a C200 is a $7500 camera versus a $2-3000 option, this is more competitive.

I'd be willing to bet that the recording time limits, lack of dual slot recording, and the hair trigger overheat aspects of the R5/R6 are protecting sales for this camera. Neither are easily explained otherwise (except perhaps for laughably bad engineering, which isnt really Canon's thing)
 
Jun 17, 2020
6
4
I hope this is just a rumor not a real next RF Cine camera specs. I have been waiting to a full frame RF mount cine camera, and this is just an insult to RF lens owners. I guess I will be am keeping my R5. A few days of shooting with it tells me that is will work for my needs for now.
 
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Deleted member 384473

Guest
HDMI has no place on a professional video/cine camera. It’s one of the things I hate most about the original C300. They wasted space putting an HDMI on the camera instead of a much more useful second BNC/SDI. Rigging and wiring, especially in multi camera scenarios, was always a PITA, because you had to loop through VF’s and monitors so many times, because there was only the lone SDI. By the time the signal made it back to the big monitor, sometimes there was a second delay.
I get that! Definitely not a straight forward workflow compared to SDI but there are solutions for multi cam use cases. Need to learn a bit more about the camera, possible extensions, and where this will sit on a roadmap for RF cine. It’s definitely not in the C300III & C500II territory so we have to keep expectations in line. We don’t even have RF cine glass yet and have to send in RF glass to get declicked and so forth.
 
Apr 15, 2020
42
21
This move makes no sense to me. As I've stated before, the current line of RF lenses are not particularly good video lenses so there's no advantage to introducing a RF mount video camera unless it offers features not found on the EF mount cameras.

Super 35 sensor -- bad idea. the advantage of RF is superior full frame capabilities.
4K -- with the R5 shooting 8K and the BlackMagic shooting 6K this resolution is not compelling.

Of course, I don't have the benefit of knowing Canon's long term strategy.
There's a lot of misconceptions on your statement. Being a professional of the industry of over 15 years or so and seeing the 5D Mk II revolution first hand, you're missing the point.

Super 35 sensor is the standard of the industry. There's no switch to fullframe (or even larger) format anytime soon. Camera manufacturers are offering a bigger sensor for everyone that wants to have a wider field of view, or simply want a shallower depth of field by using some lenses. There's little to none fullframe anamorphic lenses, and even fullframe lenses are very few in the field. While you're right about the advantage of the RF glass is to be with fullframe capabilities, the RF mount is a little bit more than that: you can have options of new lenses to choose and also new options of lenses to develop. This is the exciting stuff. Why do you think ARRI is putting that much effort with the new LPL mount and having a hard time? That mount has exactly the same flange as the EF mount, and a lot of manufacturers have a better understanding of the EF than the LPL. So it is natural that Canon pushes the RF mount into the cinema world, not for fullframe only, but also in order to develop new S35 lenses.

Also, your impression on the resolution is kind mistaken as well. Everything is about codec and better color sampling/bit depth, which is something that Canon always had trouble with - this is one of the reasons why the C700 bunked so badly, not offering any sort of 4444 12bit internally. From what I've seen/heard, this upcoming camera is targeted towards indie filmmakers that wants a compact and reliable camera that shoots compressed 4K. This is kind the same thing as the C300 Mk II, but with a better sensor (the C200 sensor is the same of the C700, a 4.5K sensor that oversamples to 4K) and if it turns out to be true, this could be the real company camera to their bigger Cinema EOS cameras.
 

melgross

EOS RP
Nov 2, 2016
614
401
Can I ask what the use case was for 8K?
Video cropping. Downconvert for higher 4K quality. You know, the usual things higher resolutions are used for. 4K TVs have been out for some time, and 8k is beginning to arrive. While I think 8k, and to an extent, 4K tv is BS, people are buying them. Businesses are buying them in very large sizes.

it took 20 years for 2k to become established, it’s taking 4K much less time. We’ll see 8k in the cinema in another couple of years, if what I’m being told is correct. Black magic has just come out with 12k for $10,000.
 
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Deleted member 384473

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Komodo’s are native RF. The pre-release custom color Komodo’s and the pre-release Storm Trooper Komodo’s have a Canon EF/RF adapter included, but the regular production run cameras will not have the adapter included.
Because RF support isn't there yet
 
Apr 15, 2020
42
21
yeah i'm ready to move on from HDMI. but i'll take it. please take all my money canon. oh wait you already did with the r5 + lenses....
I'd prefer a camera that has HDMI and timecode than a camera that has HDMI and SDI ports. I can work around the HDMI by using a crossconverter, but I can't work around the benefits of having a proper timecode terminal.
 
Apr 15, 2020
42
21
Not that it would happen but a multi-line long term collaboration b/w CANON and RED would burn the segment down faster than a dozen R5s in death valley.
I think they are working together to some extent. The RED Komodo have the RF mount, alongside usage of BP-A batteries and also a CFast 2.0 slot. All of this screams to me that this was a Canon project at some point, which ended up in RED's R&D in order to become a RED camera. Also, Canon announced a firmware update for their professionals displays some time ago (around the same time as the announcement of the C300 Mk III) which makes all of their displays compatible with RED cameras as well:

7. Added two LUTs to "CDL/User LUT" that convert video taken with RED Digital Cinema cameras to HDR (PQ) and SDR.
Source: https://asia.canon/en/support/0400566503/1

Canon USA website is down for some odd reason, but I've seen this firmware update over there as well.
 

sanj

EOS R5
Jan 22, 2012
3,620
478
This move makes no sense to me. As I've stated before, the current line of RF lenses are not particularly good video lenses so there's no advantage to introducing a RF mount video camera unless it offers features not found on the EF mount cameras.

Super 35 sensor -- bad idea. the advantage of RF is superior full frame capabilities.
4K -- with the R5 shooting 8K and the BlackMagic shooting 6K this resolution is not compelling.

Of course, I don't have the benefit of knowing Canon's long term strategy.
Why do you think RF lenses are not good video lenses? Interesting!